Senate - Spanking is child abuse

[geoffrey]

Where is the morality in that distinction? A majority of legislators can add 'a husband disciplining their wife' into the law.

The word of the law is not at all related to the morality of the situation.

[bush_cheney2004]

Where is the morality in that distinction? A majority of legislators can add 'a husband disciplining their wife' into the law.

The word of the law is not at all related to the morality of the situation.

Morality is very subjective...just ask any aborted fetus.

[Guest coot]

...just ask any aborted fetus.

Or beaten child.

[xul]

My son is nearly 5 years old and I have never spanked him once.

Kids are not unreasonalbe. They just can not be reasoned by some complex and boring adult doctrine. If someone try to reason his kid, he must shift his reason to the reason that can be understood by a kid.

For example: One day my son was playing with several other kids in a public garden, a caterpillar crawling on the ground drew the attention of these kids. They began curiously to fillip it by some thin stick to make it crawling faster.

Worrying about the caterpillar would be killed soon, I told my son that he would not do that because the caterpillar would die. But obviously a kid of 4 do not have any concept of the abstract meaning of "die" and the result of died, so he continue did his work. As shifting the thinking of my mind, I told him:"The caterpillar's mom is waiting him to go home just as your mommy doing. If he died here, his mommy would not see him again and would be brokenhearted." My son looked like considering it seriously for several seconds, and then he obviously adopted this interpretation. He stoped to abuse the caterpillar and told what I said to other kids.

Some parents suffering their kids' ill behaviour are caused by that they try to impose their adult thoughtway to their kids' mind. Sometimes these parents don't not understand that a kid adopting their opinion needs time, just as the same as they sometimes need time to understand their boss' idea. So if a person can not persuade his kid one time, he can try it another day.

Spanking usually lead to some reverse action on our kids. If a kids did not like school, spanking him only could made him fear to go to school. The right way is to connect the school with some things that can make him cheerful, even though these things have not logical connection with school on our adult sight. You could say:"If you don't go to school/kindergarten today, you will miss your best friend xx ." or "After kindergarten, you can see the big plane that you like best flying over our house. " Though this plane appears in the sky at that time everyday. These way are always useful to the kids in the "unreasonable" age.

[ScottSA]

My son is nearly 5 years old and I have never spanked him once.

Kids are not unreasonalbe. They just can not be reasoned by some complex and boring adult doctrine. If someone try to reason his kid, he must shift his reason to the reason that can be understood by a kid.

For example: One day my son was playing with several other kids in a public garden, a caterpillar crawling on the ground drew the attention of these kids. They began curiously to fillip it by some thin stick to make it crawling faster.

Worrying about the caterpillar would be killed soon, I told my son that he would not do that because the caterpillar would die. But obviously a kid of 4 do not have any concept of the abstract meaning of "die" and the result of died, so he continue did his work. As shifting the thinking of my mind, I told him:"The caterpillar's mom is waiting him to go home just as your mommy doing. If he died here, his mommy would not see him again and would be brokenhearted." My son looked like considering it seriously for several seconds, and then he obviously adopted this interpretation. He stoped to abuse the caterpillar and told what I said to other kids.

Some parents suffering their kids' ill behaviour are caused by that they try to impose their adult thoughtway to their kids' mind. Sometimes these parents don't not understand that a kid adopting their opinion needs time, just as the same as they sometimes need time to understand their boss' idea. So if a person can not persuade his kid one time, he can try it another day.

Spanking usually lead to some reverse action on our kids. If a kids did not like school, spanking him only could made him fear to go to school. The right way is to connect the school with some things that can make him cheerful, even though these things have not logical connection with school on our adult sight. You could say:"If you don't go to school/kindergarten today, you will miss your best friend xx ." or "After kindergarten, you can see the big plane that you like best flying over our house. " Though this plane appears in the sky at that time everyday. These way are always useful to the kids in the "unreasonable" age.

Tantruming kids don't want to listen, reason, or anything else. They want to tantrum. A sharp swat on the butt helps focus their attention, at which point all this reasoning actually means something more than "blah blah blah, Ginger, blah blah." And I've never understood the idea that bribery is somehow better than spanking as a means of child control.

[Drea]

Bribing kids is why our society is such a mess.

One does not "negotiate" with a child, one TELLS a child the way it is.

As a parent you are not your childrens' "friend", you are their parent.

By child I mean preteen. One must negotiate once they become teens. But at 4 years old a child cannot negotiate, any bribery or negotiation is the child getting their own way.

Once this child becomes a teen he has no idea that the real world involves very little "negotiation" and lots of "do this". As a result we have kids who are simply ignorant of authority as they have grown up BEING the authority at home.

[Mad_Michael]

Where is the morality in that distinction? A majority of legislators can add 'a husband disciplining their wife' into the law.

The word of the law is not at all related to the morality of the situation.

This is one of the issues of philosophy and politics that interests me greatly.

Does the law reflect morality, codify morality, or legislate morality? Alternatively, does morality follow from the codification or legislation of law?

[Moxie]

Where does a bunch of over paid paper pushers get off telling Candian Parents how to discipline their children. Enough with this liberal nanny nation tripe, the left and the left/left need to get out of our homes and mind their own business.

Should we be able to beat our wives too? Within reason of course, they will learn with a good smack in the face when they disobey right??

No government in my house.

Feel free to roll your eyes Geoffrey if it makes you feel any better. Geoffrey the simplicity of your analogy is assine. In Canada if you strike, slap or hit someone including your WIFE it's called common assult and it falls under the Criminal Code. Are you equating spousal abuse to spanking a child? That's insulting as a female, and I assume to those whom tap their little ones hinny for having a trantrum. We females fought long and hard to have domestic abuse considered a crime, in the seventies it was considered a "Family Issue" and police would only remove the male from the home. In the eighties it was considered a "Domestic Issue" and the police would only charge the offender if the wife would testify. In the nineties society evolved (No help from the Senate of the non-elected thou) and women didn't need to charge their abusive husbands police could lay charges if their was "Reasonable grounds" for a charge i.e. visual brusing, over hearing the abuse etc. Your ethos may include a Nanny Nation but I can assure you Geoffrey a majority of Canadians are fed up with the government sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong. The left need to learn we the "People" will be independant from their version of a Country/State.

Drea, a wonderful post to read. Taa.

[Drea]

Thanks Moxie

And welcome to MLW.

[Moxie]

Thanks Moxie

And welcome to MLW.

Thank you for the welcome Drea.

[geoffrey]

Are you equating spousal abuse to spanking a child?

Yes.

We females fought long and hard to have domestic abuse considered a crime, in the seventies it was considered a "Family Issue" and police would only remove the male from the home. In the eighties it was considered a "Domestic Issue" and the police would only charge the offender if the wife would testify. In the nineties society evolved (No help from the Senate of the non-elected thou) and women didn't need to charge their abusive husbands police could lay charges if their was "Reasonable grounds" for a charge i.e. visual brusing, over hearing the abuse etc.

And sometime in the future society will realise the same treatment of defenseless children is unacceptable as well. But hey. Do what you wish.

Your ethos may include a Nanny Nation but I can assure you Geoffrey a majority of Canadians are fed up with the government sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong. The left need to learn we the "People" will be independant from their version of a Country/State.

I'm so far from the left I make you look like a communist my friend. I just believe in the rule of law. Striking a child should be the same as striking an adult. You need to justify the difference, I bet you can't.

[Guest coot]

I'm so far from the left I make you look like a communist my friend. I just believe in the rule of law. Striking a child should be the same as striking an adult. You need to justify the difference, I bet you can't.

Actually, it's different simply because a husband isn't charged with moulding his wife into a functional adult. Parents are responsible to respond to their children's bad behaviour with some kind of disciplinary reaction. That makes the two situations entirely different.

And I think calling for the criminalization of something that has for ages been an extremely common and accepted practice is radically left wing.

That being said, I still think hitting your kids is wrong.

[geoffrey]

Actually, it's different simply because a husband isn't charged with moulding his wife into a functional adult. Parents are responsible to respond to their children's bad behaviour with some kind of disciplinary reaction. That makes the two situations entirely different.

Ahh ha! So when it will impact someone for the rest of their life, domestic violence is more acceptable! I knew there was reasoning here!

And I think calling for the criminalization of something that has for ages been an extremely common and accepted practice is radically left wing.

I didn't know calling for criminalisation of marijuana, prostitution or gambling was left wing. But hey, who am I to judge. Apparently I'm a hard line socialist bordering on joining Lenin...

[xul]

Tantruming kids don't want to listen, reason, or anything else. They want to tantrum. A sharp swat on the butt helps focus their attention, at which point all this reasoning actually means something more than "blah blah blah, Ginger, blah blah." And I've never understood the idea that bribery is somehow better than spanking as a means of child control.

Unreasoning happens not only on tantruming kids, but also on some tantruming adults.

Sometimes unreasoning is the plead not the cause. Perhaps frustration of lack reason is the cause of spanking.

So, our adults must stop tantruming first, then we may reason our kids soon.

[ScottSA]

Tantruming kids don't want to listen, reason, or anything else. They want to tantrum. A sharp swat on the butt helps focus their attention, at which point all this reasoning actually means something more than "blah blah blah, Ginger, blah blah." And I've never understood the idea that bribery is somehow better than spanking as a means of child control.

Unreasoning happens not only on tantruming kids, but also on some tantruming adults.

Sometimes unreasoning is the plead not the cause. Perhaps frustration of lack reason is the cause of spanking.

So, our adults must stop tantruming first, then we may reason our kids soon.

I take it this is some lame ESL attempt at a slag? Perhaps a pinyin translation would help?

[geoffrey]

So, our adults must stop tantruming first, then we may reason our kids soon.

Good point. A rational person doesn't generally resort to violence.

[ScottSA]

So, our adults must stop tantruming first, then we may reason our kids soon.

Good point. A rational person doesn't generally resort to violence.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Think about it.

[cybercoma]

At what point does discipline turn into assault?

Why is it ok to physically discipline a child, but it's not ok for employers to physically discipline an employee?

Why is it not ok for our penal system to physically discipline offenders?

Why is it not ok for our military to physically discipline POWs?

When does discipline become unacceptable? Is it when a person reaches a certain age?

Why is it assault when it's done to an adult, but discipline when done to a child?

It's never alright to physically punish anyone, ever.

[ScottSA]

At what point does discipline turn into assault?

Why is it ok to physically discipline a child, but it's not ok for employers to physically discipline an employee?

Why is it not ok for our penal system to physically discipline offenders?

Why is it not ok for our military to physically discipline POWs?

When does discipline become unacceptable? Is it when a person reaches a certain age?

Why is it assault when it's done to an adult, but discipline when done to a child?

It's never alright to physically punish anyone, ever.

Alrighty then. Next?

[Guest coot]

Ahh ha! So when it will impact someone for the rest of their life, domestic violence is more acceptable! I knew there was reasoning here!

Not more acceptable. I made it clear I don't consider hitting kids acceptable. I said it's different from hitting your wife because you aren't charged with disciplining your wife. So the comparison makes for a bad argument.

I didn't know calling for criminalisation of marijuana, prostitution or gambling was left wing. But hey, who am I to judge. Apparently I'm a hard line socialist bordering on joining Lenin...

If you approve of the government wanting to control individual, private behaviour that is widely accepted and/or victimless, then you definitely have radical left-wing tendencies when it comes to certain issues. I hope that doesn't hurt your feelings.

[geoffrey]

Good point. A rational person doesn't generally resort to violence.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Think about it.

I stand by that statement.

Not more acceptable. I made it clear I don't consider hitting kids acceptable. I said it's different from hitting your wife because you aren't charged with disciplining your wife. So the comparison makes for a bad argument.

Where do you draw the line then? What discipline is acceptable? I think it ends at physical confrontation or physical coercion.

If you approve of the government wanting to control individual, private behaviour that is widely accepted and/or victimless, then you definitely have radical left-wing tendencies when it comes to certain issues. I hope that doesn't hurt your feelings.

Nah. I want the government to do it's job and protect children from violence. I have no problem with people destroying themselves (as long as I don't pay for it), the problem is when other's believe it their right to do whatever to someone because they happen to be their child. A child is still a distinct entity from the adults that do whatever to keep the child in line. That interaction between people, violent, passive, becomes the public's interest when one party happens to be at a serious disadvantage.

[Guest coot]

I draw the line where you do, that violence is unacceptable (I just recognize that hitting your kid is different from hitting your wife). I don't however think my opinion should be law and any deviation from it should be criminal. I recognize the fact that corporal punishment is a longstanding tradition and I'm always reluctant to give the state a place in personal affairs. I'm more interested in discussion of effective parenting techniques than sending spanking cops into people's homes.

[DazzlinDino]

First off, I have three children who were all spanked. They are excellent in school and I get hugs regularly. I also am involved in their sports as a coach. Raise your kids however you want, spank...don't spank....it's up to you, and it should be as long as you are actually teaching your children that there are consequences out in the big bad world that will seriously bite them on the butt if they get out of line. Bribery doesn't count....teaching a kid that if you act like an ass long enough you'll get something is only making the situation worse.

A commentor earlier talked of being able to use physical abuse on convicts ( I'm not even going to get into the "people" who brought spousal abuse into this, if you don't know the difference between a spank and a beating....DON'T HAVE CHILDREN......) and here is a train of thought for you. If a prison were actually a prison, don't you think that maybe....just maybe.....there wouldn't be such a high rate of second offenders there? I'm not saying hang them from the walls by thumbscrews, but good god people......they have the right to VOTE !!??!! How on earth did THAT happen. We are taking people who have broken the laws of our society and given them the keys to help decide who gets to make the laws. It's no secret the majority of them vote against the Conservatives.........personaly if a CRIMINAL votes against something, chances are it something that should be voted FOR.

We are contunously teaching our children today that there are very few conequences for thier actions. Society is quick to blame video games, music, whatever else they can to divert the attention from the fact they don't spend enough time keeping on top of what thier children are doing. I'm 41, and saw Wiley Coyote hit the dirt thousands of times, I've never killed anyone, yet someone somewhere decided it was too violent for kids to watch. My kids play all the latest "evil" video games, and one of them wins awards at school for helping others of all ages.

Laws are made to protect society....period. In a democratic society they should be made by the majority. What this country needs are REFERENDUMS. It pisses me off to no end to see an UN-ELECTED body of people who are grandfathered into a position tell me how to live my life. Who the hell are they to make up my mind? I didn't vote for them, neither did any of you. What makes it all that much worse is to see Dion in the news alongside someone with the handle "Liberal Senate Member". If we are to have a senate (get rid of this bunch of useless people), then should'nt they be making thier judgements from a NON-PARTISAN view?

Ever notice how all this molly-coddling is just INCREASING the crime rate. That comes from undisciplined children, not from ones who are taught that for every stupid action, there is an equal and opposite reaction from my hand to thier ass.

Edited June 19, 2008 by DazzlinDino

[RB]

I don't believe in spanking, hitting - it is an abuse and children remember this stuff, it is traumatizing

I think parents should credit their children for being sensible and appeal to their intelligence, plus the kids smarten up very quickly when you administer reward for a good behavior system.

Punishment by taking away privileges still work. Look, since last March we took away my kid's electronic gadgets -the ps3 and the lot and it currently openly sits in the living room in a Bell bag. She could not control the amounts of time spent on the games and plus she would forgo playing badminton with us on Saturdays, and her chores for the games. Funnily, she keeps searching for her items, we know this as she can actually tell you where misplaced tools are.

I don't think kids can ever outsmart parents, that parents can unleash such anger to the point that they have the urge to hit the kid. It is about more about self-respect as parents and respecting the child. I mean parents can really tailor the child direction, and nurture their various compasses as the child sets off for a future.

My family is wickedly funny, and we have a good time so it would be interesting when we return all my kid's devices next Monday after her exams.

[Bryan]

Some kids never need physical enforcement of any kind, others do. It's a personality issue, not one of environment. Some people respond to carrots, other require a stick.

My daughter always listens and does what she's told, and never needs me to so much as raise my voice at her. She likes structure, and wants to know what the rules are so she can happily do what's expected. There's never been an issue where the subject of spanking would even come up. My son on the other hand, is far more independent. Not only does he not want to follow the rules, he also likes to find out for himself what the consequences of not following those rules might be, including not following whatever non-physical punishment you might impose. Eventually, you run out of answers to his "or what?", and "or I'm going to get the wooden spoon" becomes the only thing that motivates him. As long as the spanking threat is real (that is, at some point, you have actually used it if he challenged the threat), then the mere mention will work.

Edited June 20, 2008 by Bryan