Khadr should make us ashamed to be Canadian

[g_bambino]

What have you got?

What I gave you.

[eyeball]

What I gave you.

You figure the people I cited don't have these too or didn't give them all due consideration? What's so special about your conclusions compared to theirs?

[g_bambino]

You figure the people I cited...

I must've missed the actual citations. Can you point them out again, please?

[eyeball]

I must've missed the actual citations.

Ignored it you mean.

Can you point them out again, please?

I could but what would be the point?

[g_bambino]

Ignored it you mean.

Obviously not; I'm specifically asking for them to be drawn to my attention.

[eyeball]

Obviously not; I'm specifically asking for them to be drawn to my attention.

It you mean, written by Radhika Coomaraswamy an expert in human rights and an Under-Secretary-General and Special Representative for Children and Armed Conflict.

Perhaps you imagine this is just a polite left-lib piece of fluff but I suspect it'll land on the Supreme Court's bench with a rather mighty thud.

[g_bambino]

It you mean, written by Radhika Coomaraswamy an expert in human rights and an Under-Secretary-General and Special Representative for Children and Armed Conflict.

Ah, yes, I was wondering if you were going to produce that letter.

The thing is, it's a very carefully worded piece that (deliberately, I imagine) doesn't make any direct assertions about Khadr being a child soldier; the closest it comes is when it says Khadr "represents the classic child soldier narrative" and "the recruitment and use of children, like Omar, who are recruited under the age of 15 years is in itself a war crime." So, Khadr was a child soldier, and the Taliban/Al Qaeda is/are likely guilty of at least one war crime; that comes as no surprise to anyone. But the letter doesn't venture to even hint at whether or not Khadr was a child soldier when he engaged in battle and was captured.

I am not, in this line of conversation, particularly concerned with what a court rules about Omar Khadr except that I doubt he'd be classified as having been a child soldier at the time he committed the crime he was accused of and, hence, that wouldn't be the reason he'd be immune from treason charges. There are other reasons, already outlined, why those wouldn't stick.

[eyeball]

Ah, yes, I was wondering if you were going to produce that letter.

I produced it some time ago actually.

The thing is, it's a very carefully worded piece that (deliberately, I imagine) doesn't make any direct assertions about Khadr being a child soldier; the closest it comes is when it says Khadr "represents the classic child soldier narrative" and "the recruitment and use of children, like Omar, who are recruited under the age of 15 years is in itself a war crime." So, Khadr was a child soldier, and the Taliban/Al Qaeda is/are likely guilty of at least one war crime; that comes as no surprise to anyone. But the letter doesn't venture to even hint at whether or not Khadr was a child soldier when he engaged in battle and was captured.

So you say.

I am not, in this line of conversation, particularly concerned with what a court rules about Omar Khadr except that I doubt he'd be classified as having been a child soldier at the time he committed the crime he was accused of and, hence, that wouldn't be the reason he'd be immune from treason charges. There are other reasons, already outlined, why those wouldn't stick.

I'm even less interested in this silly conversation about treason charges except that I think they'd probably result in his complete exoneration in our courts just as fast as charging his mother would.

Even in the event neither are charged, there should still be plenty of opportunity for the defence to quibble over his status or classification as a child and or a child-soldier during whatever lawsuit it is that his legal team(s) put together.

[g_bambino]

I'm even less interested in this silly conversation about treason charges...

Then, why did you get involved in it?

[GostHacked]

Kanao Inouye, all the reasons being given why Omar Khadr should be convicted of the same. Kanao Inouye was 26 when he was conscripted, not 8.

8 - 26...what's the difference?

I think the difference is that he made his own mind. Omar did not really have a choice and had to go with his father (that is an assumption on my part) .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_treason

Seems like there are two levels of treason in Canada. Inouye was convicted of treason and not high treason.

In Canadian law, however, there are two separate offences of treason and high treason, but both of these, in fact, fall in the historical category of high treason.[2] In Canada, the main difference in law between treason and high treason depends on whether the nation is at war or not.

And I guess that would depend on any official declaration of war in order to be charged with high treason. Other than that, both forms are treated as the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanao_Inouye

The one point I am not understanding with this person is the following ....

After the Japanese capitulation in August 1945, Inouye was arrested in Kowloon and tried for war crimes by a military tribunal. He was convicted and was sentenced to death. However, the verdict was overturned on appeal, since as a Canadian citizen, he could not be prosecuted for war crimes committed by an enemy army.

In April 1947, Inouye was tried on the criminal charge of treason. He was again found guilty, and on August 27, 1947, he was executed by hanging at Hong Kong's Stanley Prison. His last word was "Banzai!"[5]

So why was he convicted and executed in Hong Kong? Crazy that we have to go back to WWII to find the last example of a Canadian committing treason.

[eyeball]

Then, why did you get involved in it?

I guess someone said something that piqued my interest.

[DogOnPorch]

that is an assumption on my part

That's for sure. As a kid, I stuck by my Dad as it usually led to adventure.

[Guest American Woman]

I think the difference is that he made his own mind. Omar did not really have a choice and had to go with his father (that is an assumption on my part) .....

It definitely is an assumption on your part; an assumption that's not backed up by anything that I've read. Have you read otherwise? In other words, what is your assumption based on?

[GostHacked]

It definitely is an assumption on your part; an assumption that's not backed up by anything that I've read. Have you read otherwise? In other words, what is your assumption based on?

Omar was eight years old.

[Guest American Woman]

Omar was eight years old.

Not at the time he was captured. Still, "forced" indicates that he didn't want to go; that he was brought there against his wishes. Do you think that's what happened?

[cybercoma]

Not at the time he was captured. Still, "forced" indicates that he didn't want to go; that he was brought there against his wishes. Do you think that's what happened?

He was a child. Did you consider your 8-year-old's wishes when you made decisions then?

Edited May 9, 2012 by cybercoma

[GostHacked]

Not at the time he was captured. Still, "forced" indicates that he didn't want to go; that he was brought there against his wishes. Do you think that's what happened?

He was 8 when he was taken to Afghanistan. That is what I am basing that on, not when he was captured.

I mean following the chat in this thread should not be too hard if you have at least a slight understanding of reading comprehension. You seem to struggle with this more often than not.

Edited May 9, 2012 by GostHacked

[g_bambino]

He was 8 when he was taken to Afghanistan..

Omar was in Toronto when he was 8 years old. He was moved to Afghanistan when he was about 10, but still travelled back to Canada periodically. He seems to have only been really thrown into the Al Qaeda organisation (as in, moved away from the care of his mother and went on his own to Afghanistan as a translator with Abu Laith al-Libi) when he was around 13 or 14.

[ed.: punct.]

Edited May 9, 2012 by g_bambino

[GostHacked]

Omar was in Toronto when he was 8 years old. He was moved to Afghanistan when he was about 10, but still travelled back to Canada periodically. He seems to have only been really thrown into the Al Qaeda organisation (as in, moved away from the care of his mother and went on his own to Afghanistan as a translator with Abu Laith al-Libi) when he was around 13 or 14.

[ed.: punct.]

I really don't think it matters if Omar was 8 or 10 .. was it his choice to go? That is the precedent I am try to set here.

[g_bambino]

I really don't think it matters if Omar was 8 or 10 ...

I kind of matters to those in whose interests it is to paint Omar as as big a victim as possible. Speaking of Omar as an eight year old "forced" to Afghanistan (a story which inherently implies he, at eight, held the desire to not go) evokes images of a much sweeter and more innocent child who was ill done by than the picture of him as a teenager wanting to get away from his mom.

[ed.: +, c/e]

Edited May 9, 2012 by g_bambino

[Guest American Woman]

He was 8 when he was taken to Afghanistan. That is what I am basing that on, not when he was captured.

I mean following the chat in this thread should not be too hard if you have at least a slight understanding of reading comprehension. You seem to struggle with this more often than not.

No, I have no problem comprehending what you said; you seem to be the one having trouble. I'm still wondering why you say that he was "forced" to go to Afghanistan. I went where my parents went because we were a family; "forced" was never a feeling that I had at 8 regarding how I felt about being with them. Furthermore, again, you realize that he was 15, almost 16, when he was captured, right? What one feels at 8 generally isn't the same as what one feels at 15/almost 16 - and what one does at 8 is hardly the same as what one does at 15/almost 16. The point that you're struggling to make, the picture you're struggling to paint, doesn't hold water.

Edited May 9, 2012 by American Woman

[eyeball]

I kind of matters to those in whose interests it is to paint Omar as as big a victim as possible; speaking of Omar as an eight year old evokes images of a much sweeter and more innocent child than him as a teenager wanting to get away from his mom.

This discussion really had nowhere else to go once Ottawa ordered that any and all official talk of Omar's minor status be clawed back way at the beginning of this debacle and started evoking images of a scary bearded adult instead.

[eyeball]

What one feels at 8 generally isn't the same as what one feels at 15/almost 16 - and what one does at 8 is hardly the same as what one does at 15/almost 16. The point that you're struggling to make, the picture you're struggling to paint, doesn't hold water.

How one is raised and indoctrinated at age 8 - 9 - 10 etc definitely affects how you turn out by the time you're 15.

Punishing him for the sins of his parent's or the adults whose care they surrendered him to is just plain sick.

[cybercoma]

That Khadr. What scum. He should have gotten himself a flat in Toronto when he was 10 and told his parents to piss off when they wanted him to move to Afghanistan.

[DogOnPorch]

That Khadr. What scum. He should have gotten himself a flat in Toronto when he was 10 and told his parents to piss off when they wanted him to move to Afghanistan.

You avoided your father when young, I gather? Or did not know your father?