10 Things Christians and Atheists Can and Must Agree On....

[Figleaf]

Your position simply seems nonsensical. You seemed to be trying to say that any/all belief systems are religion.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ....

Well, that's an ... interesting pov -- Science is religion, atheism is religion, Confucianism is religion, materialism is religion, stoicism is religion, communism is religion, ...? All belief systems?

Anyway, again, I put it to you ... that broad a concept of religion is unuseful. And I still don't know what word you would use to describe what I mean by religion.

Two different, diametrically opposed belief systems.

You can make the same artificial distinction between any two belief systems (e.g. Buddhism and Christianity). It does not mean that the belief systems have nothing in common.

You can make up any arbitrary distinctions you like, but that won't make them true, or comparable to real diametric distinctions.

Most of the conflicts in the world are caused by zealots insisting that their belief system is the one and only true belief system (atheists often as a bad as any theist when it comes to zealotry).

??? Please cite a single example of atheists causing world conflicts in the service of atheism, if you can.

Anyhow, what merit do you see in confounding religion with atheism?

[cybercoma]

Atheism is not a belief system. Atheism is a label thrown upon people who refuse to accept a faith-based belief system.

[M.Dancer]

Atheism is not a belief system. Atheism is a label thrown upon people who refuse to accept a faith-based belief system.

He beleives that, and he is right.

Just like every theist has their religion, every atheist has their religion substitue.

for most it's TV

[Riverwind]

Anyway, again, I put it to you ... that broad a concept of religion is unuseful. And I still don't know what word you would use to describe what I mean by religion.

I don't see why there is a need to group some belief systems together according to some of their principals. It is more important to understand that all humans have a belief system and this system is the basis for their ethical frame of reference.

??? Please cite a single example of atheists causing world conflicts in the service of atheism, if you can.

Mao and Stalin. They persecuted theists because they were theists.

Anyhow, what merit do you see in confounding religion with atheism?

Like I said, a little humility goes a long way to mutual understanding.

[cybercoma]

There doesn't need to be a substitute for faith-based belief. It is possible not to believe in making decision based on faith, but to make decisions and live life based on reason and understanding.

[Riverwind]

There doesn't need to be a substitute for faith-based belief. It is possible not to believe in making decision based on faith, but to make decisions and live life based on reason and understanding.

IOW - you place your faith in reason. Any decision you make must be based on reason and basing one on gut feel or intuition violates your belief system.

[Figleaf]

IOW - you place your faith in reason.

Perhaps that's correct, if you acknowledge that a colloquial use of the word 'faith' is not the same as a religious understanding of the word 'faith'.

Any decision you make must be based on reason and basing one on gut feel or intuition goes against your belief system.

Well, there may be a bit of a problem with that formulation around the word belief. A person who relies on reason won't, in fact, believe something, without it complying with reason. It's important not to put the cart before the horse.

[Figleaf]

??? Please cite a single example of atheists causing world conflicts in the service of atheism, if you can.

Mao and Stalin. They persecuted theists because they were theists.

They persecuted theists because they didn't conform. In any event, they did not do so in service of atheism. If those are your examples, you point fails. Atheism is not implicated in any world conflicts.

Anyhow, what merit do you see in confounding religion with atheism?

Like I said, a little humility goes a long way to mutual understanding.

? ? What does humility have to do with confounding atheism with religion?

[Riverwind]

Perhaps that's correct, if you acknowledge that a colloquial use of the word 'faith' is not the same as a religious understanding of the word 'faith'.

Faith means you trust it as a basis for making decisions even if your emotional self disagrees. It is no different from the faith a theist has.

All belief systems have a rational component. Entire books are written on the rational basis for Christian beliefs. For example, the Christian pratice of forgiving those who harm you is an extremely rational way to deal with resentments and anger. The fact that they dress it up with religious imagery does not change the rational basis.

A person who relies on reason won't, in fact, believe something, without it complying with reason.

People who believe in 'reason' are just as capable of deluding themselves (psychiatrists call this rationalization).

They persecuted theists because they didn't conform. In any event, they did not do so in service of atheism. If those are your examples, you point fails. Atheism is not implicated in any world conflicts.

Deny it if you like. Atheism was a big part of their belief system and that belief lead them to commit crimes.

[Figleaf]

Faith means you trust it as a basis for making decisions even if your emotional self disagrees. It is no different from the faith a theist has.

I rely on it as my method for making decisions, and it is drastically different from what I observe theists doing with their faiths.

All belief systems have a rational component.

A rational component, eh? But if the glass is only half-full, you realize, it is also half empty.

For example, the Christian pratice of forgiving those who harm you is an extremely rational way to deal with resentments and anger.

No, the Christian practice is not rational. It may be found to be effective. It may therefore be adopted rationally apart from its roots, but the Christian practice is religious, based on faith in Jesus' divinity, and therefore NOT rational.

The fact that they dress it up with religious imagery does not change the rational basis.

Don't be ridiculous. Of course it does. Ascribing a discoverable discernibible natural process to the interventions of an imaginary divine entity is decidedly to change the rational basis.

People who believe in 'reason' are just as capable of deluding themselves (psychiatrists call this rationalization).

People who exercise reason consistently are in fact not deluding themselves. That's what reason means -- The method of not being deluded; the practice of finding and acting on truth.

People who base their decisions on religious belief start out by deluding themselves.

Atheism was a big part of their belief system and that belief lead them to commit crimes.

A big part? Not really. In any event, it was not what provided the impetus for conflict.

[jefferiah]

Believing in the greater good is no different than believing in a specific deity.

Again with your private language! It really does make a discussion difficult to pursue.

Look here -- words are symbolic constructs used to represent things, concepts, people, etc. collectively called memes. For this system to be useful, the word/symbols used to represent different memes must distinguishable from eachother, and used predicably to allow hearers to decypher the intent of speakers.

Or in short -- Words have meanings.

Now, the words 'greater good' are, if you look closely, DIFFERENT words than 'believing in a specific deity'.

Why do you suppose that may be? Well, in fact, it's because they represent DIFFERENT things. Yes. And so, when you burble up and say they are the SAME thing, it really isn't very comprehensible or useful.

There is nothing necessarily theistic about perceiving and acting on a 'greater good'. To take an example, a person who feels he has had a full life with little more joy to come, might quite LOGICALLY decide if forced into a situation to sacrifice his life to ensure the prospect of life for younger people. There is no need to drag any notion of a 'higher power', let alone a specific 'God' into explaining that.

The 'greater good' is your deity even if you refuse to admit it.

??? Here we go again. What is your private definition of 'deity' now?

If you call Buddism a religion then you must call Atheism a religion.

Bunk.*

*Silly unsupported assertions are adequately met with denial. They don't deserve the dignity of refutation.

He is right you know. Zen Buddhism for instance is a religion but there is no deity. Religion is a way of life, a system of laws. It does not necessarily have to have a God.

[jefferiah]

Atheism is not a belief system. Atheism is a label thrown upon people who refuse to accept a faith-based belief system.

But I have to agree that religion would be the wrong word to use in the case of atheism itself. But either way these people are not free from beliefs. Be they political or whatnot. Everyone regardless of faith in God or not, has belief systems. Here we have Cybercoma who in another thread would legally impose his belief that religion be ought to be banned. With all the religious people in the world how does he propose to enforce this law? People will still be religious, right? So how does he propose to deal with theists if he were to have his way.

[Figleaf]

... Religion is a way of life, a system of laws.

It's all fun and games for you fellers to make up and substitute convenient, partial, and specialized meanings for 'religion'.

Okay, 'religion' is whatever you want it to be from time to time. I'll just adopt the same approach too. In fact, we all should. Each of us should brine whichever teeth supplants us most. Happen great mustache. Over given on every moose!

[kuzadd]

religion defintion:

* a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"

* an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "

NOTE: these defintions seperate religion and morality, as they well should be seperated as religion construes no morality , necessarily.

IMO, these are good basic defintions of religion.

thought I would throw that in!

thought on the defintions?

editted to add:

an afterthought!

some posters are classifying a belief system as religion, this IMO, is false.

Belief systems are so personal they can in no way be construed as a religion, or religious belief.

Religion requires a belief in some external supernatural or divine power, or some sort of dependance on an external institution,( a church, the building or the church, the entity,) in which to express that said belief.

whereas a personal belief system, relies on no such externalites, as necessary to express said belief.

dish?

Edited May 30, 2007 by kuzadd

[M.Dancer]

He is right you know. Zen Buddhism for instance is a religion but there is no deity. Religion is a way of life, a system of laws. It does not necessarily have to have a God.

Other godless religions include Taoism and Confucianism and possibly, Scientology.......

GODLY AND GODLESS RELIGIONS

Religion consists of explanations of existence based on supernatural assumptions and including statements about the nature of the supernatural and about ultimate meaning.

Ultimate meaning concerns the fundamental point and purpose of being. Does life have meaning? Why are we here? What can we hope? Why do we suffer? Does justice exist? Is death the end?

Supernatural refers to forces or entities (conscious or not) that are beyond or outside nature and which can suspend, alter, or ignore physical forces. Gods are a particular form of the supernatural consisting of conscious supernatural beings.

Notice that the definition of religion leaves room for "Godless" religions, such as the elite forms of Confucianism and Taoism wherein the supernatural is conceived of as a supernatural essence--an underlying mystical force or principle governing life, but one that is impersonal, remote, lacking consciousness, and definitely not a being. As explained in the Laotzu, the Tao is a cosmic essence, the eternal Way of the universe that produces harmony and balance. Although the Tao is said to be wise beyond human understanding and "the mother of the universe," it is also said to be "always nonexistent," yet "always existent," "unnameable" and "the name that can be named." Both "soundless and formless," it is "always without desires." Finally, the sage is advised to make no effort to understand the Tao, which is how such an understanding will be achieved. Little wonder that the Tao inspires meditation and mysticism, but not worship.

For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery

[M.Dancer]

Here we have Cybercoma who in another thread would legally impose his belief that religion be ought to be banned.

Mao tried that......

[White Doors]

There is, unfortunately, some disagreement about the definition of atheism. It is interesting to note that most of that disagreement comes from theists — atheists themselves tend to agree on what atheism means.

Atheists can call themselves whatever they want - it does not change the fact that Atheism is just another form of religion.

Anyone who presumes that they have a monopoly on the 'truth' and that all other belief systems are inferior are, by definition, religious zealots. Atheists are often guilty of exactly that behavoir.

100% accurate. That was I was trying to get across to these zealots in the other threads. tTo no avial. Their mind is made up. We are dumb and that is it.

[White Doors]

Holy crap, Figleaf! (I tried, but the shit reference went way over my head) You're indefatigable with debunking this nonsense. I don't know how you stay focused without just throwing your hands up in the air and accepting that some people may never "get" it. Maybe I'm the idiot since I grow tired of explaining the same things 'round and 'round in circles. Or maybe I really am a disrespectful pompous ass in the sense that I think some people are too stupid to understand reason.

Occam's razor. Your zealotry leads you to be dismissive and unopen to other's opinions.

it also makes you a hypocrite because you are arguing against religious zealotry.

I am afraid that you are the one who doesn't 'get it'.

[White Doors]

Your position simply seems nonsensical. You seemed to be trying to say that any/all belief systems are religion.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ....

Two different, diametrically opposed belief systems.

You can make the same artificial distinction between any two belief systems (e.g. Buddhism and Christianity). It does not mean that the belief systems have nothing in common.

I sentiment that I feel has a lot of merit.

What merit?

Most of the conflicts in the world are caused by zealots insisting that their belief system is the one and only true belief system (atheists often as a bad as any theist when it comes to zealotry). A little humility goes a long way towards social peace.

Ahhh.. thanks Riverwind. You have done a better job arguing what I have been trying to get across to them for a couple of weeks now.

[newbie]

Other godless religions include Taoism and Confucianism and possibly, Scientology.......

I think the following is an interesting observation of Taoism and Confucianism (from wikipedia):

Popular Taoism typically presents the Jade Emperor as the head deity. Intellectual ("elite") Taoists, such as the Celestial Masters sect, usually present Laozi (Laojun, "Lord Lao") and the Three Pure Ones at the top of the pantheon. In particular Taoist systems, Hong-jun lao-zu (鸿钧老祖 or 鸿元老祖, the great primal originator) is the common ancestor/teacher of all the deities.

It is debatable whether Confucianism should be called a religion. While it prescribes a great deal of ritual, little of it could be construed as worship or meditation in a formal sense. Confucius occasionally made statements about the existence of other-worldly beings that sound distinctly agnostic and humanistic to European and American ears. Thus, Confucianism is often considered an ethical tradition and not a religion.

And of Scientology this little gem:

The Church says that psychiatry was responsible for World War I, the rise of Hitler and Stalin, the decline in education standards in the United States, the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo, and the September 11 attacks. This "church" is nothing more than damaging science fiction, and a dangerous cult.

[guyser]

Atheists can call themselves whatever they want - it does not change the fact that Atheism is just another form of religion.

Who do I worship/pray to?

[Catchme]

The question you should be asking, is are you a bona fide member of Canadian society, based on the fact this is a majority Christian country.

what fact?

What "fact" tells us that Canada is a majority Christian religion?

What I said was: "based on the fact this is a majority Christian country."

Do you honestly believe Drea, Canada and the U.S. would have progressed and prospered in the absence of Christianity?

We know for a fact up to RECENTLY Canada has supported Christianity and has used Christianity to the countries advantage in helping keep the workforce, decent, law abiding, hard working and committed to family and church.

This is all changing fast. As I look out the window this moment a teenage girl pushing a baby carriage, proceed on a strangers lawn to steal a handful of flowers to give to the little girl in the carriage, then proceeds to discard a half litre bottle of soft drink all over the sidewalk and throws the empty bottle into the middle of the roadway and continues on her way.

You can shove your new Canada Drea and the government that goes with it.

The key is they used Christianity to indoctrinate people into a colonialistic mentality and slave work ethics.

The fostered belief in the Christ myth was to exploit peoples and resources only, it had very little to do with a diety.

That is nonsense using an example of am teen age girl pushing a baby carriage littering it does not represent Canada going bad in anyway shape or form.

In fact, IMO, Canada's going bad can be traced to bad Canadian corporation activies at home and around the world. and the current anti-Christ government of Harper's.

[newbie]

Atheists can call themselves whatever they want - it does not change the fact that Atheism is just another form of religion.

Who do I worship/pray to?

They can't answer that g. Kinda invalidates their entire argument don't ya think?

[White Doors]

Harper is the anti-Christ now? He's in on it with those damn dominionists isn't he catchme!?

Please, tell us more.

[Riverwind]

Who do I worship/pray to?

Who does a Buddhist pray to? You really have to get over this 'old-guy-in-robes' image of religion that Christians have. Most religions are not like that.

A religion is a beleif system. If you are an atheist then you worship the idea that there is no god.