With God on Our Side: One Man's War Against an Evangelical Coup in

[kuzadd]

a couple editorial reviews of the book:

“With God on Our Side is the story of one man’s willingness to stand up for the Constitution of the United States. Arrayed against Mikey Weinstein are those who would transform the United States military, our most revered institution, into a force of evangelical crusaders, intolerant of the diversity of our society and willfully subversive of our national security interests. It is an important call to arms for all who love our country and the principles for which it stands.”

—Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, author of The Politics of Truth

“The extremists and the militants of the Muslim world would like us to believe that the world is embroiled in a cosmic battle between Christianity and Islam. Yet instead of debunking this twisted ideology, there are those in the armed forces who are legitimizing it with their fundamentalist indoctrination of our nation's troops. If the war on terrorism is a war of ideology, then Weinstein deserves a medal because his battle to put an end to the rampant Christian evangelism in the United States military is making the whole country safer.”

—Reza Aslan, author of No god but God: The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam

I heard an interview with the Author and he has quite the 'story to tell' as they say about what is going on in the US military, it seems , radical indoctrination is the name of the game.

he became so concerned about the treatment, (anti-semtic), of his kids, further evangelical indoctrination going on, he launched a law suit , started an organization, in other words, he got active.

http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/

[kuzadd]

excerpt of an article from his site:

The CRUSADERS-Robert Koehler

"When George Bush, in the wake of 9/11, puffed himself into Richard the Lionheart and declared he would lead the country in a “crusade” against terrorism — you know, crusade, as in slaughter of Muslim infidels — turns out . . . oh, how awkward (if you’re on White House spin duty) . . . he may have been speaking literally.

What’s certain, in any case, is that a lot of people in high and low places within the Bush administration — and in particular, the military — heard him literally, and regard the war on terror as a religious war:

“The enemy has got a face. He’s called Satan. He lives in Fallujah. And we’re going to destroy him,” a lieutenant colonel, according to a BBC reporter, said to his troops on the eve of the destruction of that undefended city in post-election 2004.

“I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol,” Deputy Undersecretary of Defense Jerry Boykin notoriously boasted a few years back, speaking of a Muslim warlord in Somalia. And by the way, George Bush is “in the White House because God put him there.”

And, of course, just the other day, Lt. Col. Ralph Kauzlarich, who conducted the first official investigation into Pat Tillman’s death, opined that Tillman’s family is only pestering the Army for the, ahem, truth about how he died because their loved one, a non-believer with no heavenly reward to reap, is now “worm dirt.”"

yah Pat Tillman's family, how dare they?! Just a "non-believer"

"Until I read the newly published “With God on Our Side: One Man’s War Against an Evangelical Coup in America’s Military” (St. Martin’s Press), Michael Weinstein’s disturbing account of anti-Semitism at the U.S. Air Force Academy, I shrugged off each of these remarks, and so much more, as isolated, almost comically intolerant noises out of True Believer Land. Forgive them, Lord, for they know not what they do . . .

Now my blood runs cold. Weinstein, a 1977 graduate of the Academy and former assistant general counsel in the Reagan administration, and a lifelong Republican, has devoted the last several years of his life to battling what he has come to regard as a fundamentalist takeover of the Academy, turning it, in effect, into a taxpayer-supported Evangelical institution. He charges that the separation of church and state is rapidly vanishing at the school, which routinely promotes sectarian religious events, tolerates the proselytizing of uniquely vulnerable new recruits and, basically, conflates evangelical interests and the national interest."

>>>>>>>>>>

The attitude he has encountered in his attempt to hold the institution, and the rest of the military, accountable smacks of a coup: “The Christian Taliban is running the Department of Defense,” he told me. “It inundates everything.”

>>>>>>>>

etc., etc.,

- - -

During the interview Mike Weinstein spoke of the whole rapture thing, and, interestingly he quoted his wife's words. The Evangelical Christians look on the Jewish, like the Pilgrims, looked at the Turkey prior to , thanksgiving dinner.

I get a real vivid image and understanding from that.

[jbg]

Pure puke and ignorance!!!

Can you give me a coherent strategy for avenging and preventing another 911, besides recognizing the nature of the enemy and the threat, and dealing with it?

[kuzadd]

Pure puke and ignorance!!!

Can you give me a coherent strategy for avenging and preventing another 911, besides recognizing the nature of the enemy and the threat, and dealing with it?

could you take that up with Mr. Weinstein ??Perhaps contact him, via his foundation, and then tell him everything he wrote about , his kids experiences, his lawsuit, etc., are all "puke and ignorance."

He interviews exceptionally well, and left me free of doubt that he knows what he speaks of.

[Figleaf]

It's pretty frightening to imagine religious fanatics infiltrating and controlling the armed forces. The possibility of a point coming when the commanders prefer their religious convictions over their professional obligations should concern all citizens.

There should be rules against formalizing religious belief in the military similar to the rules against religion in schools. Okay the people in the military are grown adults who can make up their minds for themselves, but beyond supplying chaplaincy services, the military organization itself should be totally god-neutral.

[jbg]

During the interview Mike Weinstein spoke of the whole rapture thing, and, interestingly he quoted his wife's words. The Evangelical Christians look on the Jewish, like the Pilgrims, looked at the Turkey prior to , thanksgiving dinner.

I get a real vivid image and understanding from that.

I am Jewish, and not an evangelical Christian. With evangelicals, I see legislatures that led the way (Alabama, Tennessee) in passing resolutions requesting that Truman recognize Israel. In Brazil, when part of the area near Recife converted from Catholic to evangelical, I see a Jewish people, in hiding since 1653, emerge to the surface.

Among evangelicals, I see mostly friends and allies.

I would expect that your views of the Jews and Israel would be somewhat less warm and cuddly.

a couple editorial reviews of the book:

***

“The extremists and the militants of the Muslim world would like us to believe that the world is embroiled in a cosmic battle between Christianity and Islam. Yet instead of debunking this twisted ideology, there are those in the armed forces who are legitimizing it with their fundamentalist indoctrination of our nation's troops. If the war on terrorism is a war of ideology, then Weinstein deserves a medal because his battle to put an end to the rampant Christian evangelism in the United States military is making the whole country safer.”

—Reza Aslan, author of No god but God: The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam

Excuse me. You're blaming the armed forces for believing what the Islamists declare their intentions to be. Did you forget what happened on September 11, 2001? It wasn't evangelicals manning those planes on their death plunges into buildings full of innocent people. It was not evangelicals slaughtering "infidels".

[jbg]

It's pretty frightening to imagine religious fanatics infiltrating and controlling the armed forces. The possibility of a point coming when the commanders prefer their religious convictions over their professional obligations should concern all citizens.

Show me that "religious fanatics" are controlling the military. If they were, I'd expect Mecca to be rubble, entombing the Hajj pilgrims, by now. For G-d's sake, the provocation has been there, in spades. Even I, who am not particularly religious, have had days I'd wish I'd never have to read about another Muslim car bombing, suicide bombing, plane attack, etc.

There should be rules against formalizing religious belief in the military similar to the rules against religion in schools. Okay the people in the military are grown adults who can make up their minds for themselves, but beyond supplying chaplaincy services, the military organization itself should be totally god-neutral.

What branch of our military has "formalized" any religious beliefs?

[WestViking]

There should be rules against formalizing religious belief in the military similar to the rules against religion in schools.

Thanks to the tyranny of minorities and cranks, our children no longer learn about the Commandments and the Deadly Sins. Members of our society have grown more compassionate, respectful and responsible as a result.

Our schools are splendid examples of dedicated, industrious scholars who take great pains to show respect for their teachers and peers.

[Catchme]

It's pretty frightening to imagine religious fanatics infiltrating and controlling the armed forces. The possibility of a point coming when the commanders prefer their religious convictions over their professional obligations should concern all citizens.

There should be rules against formalizing religious belief in the military similar to the rules against religion in schools. Okay the people in the military are grown adults who can make up their minds for themselves, but beyond supplying chaplaincy services, the military organization itself should be totally god-neutral.

yes, it should be, and apparently the Trinity Broadcast Network, is carried by the USA military broadcast

network.

Of note, the US military in Iraq/Afghanistan is now NOT allowed to watch youtube videos' or access sites that could comprise USA safety like political discussion forums etc.

The dominionists want to control the US military personell because of their desire to introduce a fascist theocracy.

[kuzadd]

Excuse me. You're blaming the armed forces for believing what the Islamists declare their intentions to be. Did you forget what happened on September 11, 2001? It wasn't evangelicals manning those planes on their death plunges into buildings full of innocent people. It was not evangelicals slaughtering "infidels".

jbq, I suggest you read, I am NOT saying, I am reieterating, what other's are saying.

[kuzadd]

It's pretty frightening to imagine religious fanatics infiltrating and controlling the armed forces. The possibility of a point coming when the commanders prefer their religious convictions over their professional obligations should concern all citizens.

There should be rules against formalizing religious belief in the military similar to the rules against religion in schools. Okay the people in the military are grown adults who can make up their minds for themselves, but beyond supplying chaplaincy services, the military organization itself should be totally god-neutral.

it is quite frightening, and that is the point the author was making.

it is wholly inappropriate for the military to become a military of religious fanatics, duly indoctrinated and yet that is what is happening.

[kuzadd]

It's pretty frightening to imagine religious fanatics infiltrating and controlling the armed forces. The possibility of a point coming when the commanders prefer their religious convictions over their professional obligations should concern all citizens.

Show me that "religious fanatics" are controlling the military. If they were, I'd expect Mecca to be rubble, entombing the Hajj pilgrims, by now. For G-d's sake, the provocation has been there, in spades. Even I, who am not particularly religious, have had days I'd wish I'd never have to read about another Muslim car bombing, suicide bombing, plane attack, etc.

There should be rules against formalizing religious belief in the military similar to the rules against religion in schools. Okay the people in the military are grown adults who can make up their minds for themselves, but beyond supplying chaplaincy services, the military organization itself should be totally god-neutral.

What branch of our military has "formalized" any religious beliefs?

perhaps you should read his book, or check out his website???

[cybercoma]

Among evangelicals, I see mostly friends and allies.

The Jews are returning to their land of unbelief. They are spiritually blind and desperately in need of their Messiah and Savior.

-- Rev. Jerry Falwell

If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being.

-- Rev Jerry Falwell

With friends like that, who needs enemies.

[margrace]

So back to history, remember Cromwell, perhaps you should read what he achieved and what happened. England never allowed that to happen again, Mr. Bush and Mr. Harper remind me of him.

[kuzadd]

Among evangelicals, I see mostly friends and allies.

The Jews are returning to their land of unbelief. They are spiritually blind and desperately in need of their Messiah and Savior.

-- Rev. Jerry Falwell

If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being.

-- Rev Jerry Falwell

With friends like that, who needs enemies.

"With friends like that, who needs enemies."

Some Jews realize that, thank goodness for that, it will help them greatly in the long run.

They know they are simply being used, by the evangelical zealots.

[Catchme]

Among evangelicals, I see mostly friends and allies.

The Jews are returning to their land of unbelief. They are spiritually blind and desperately in need of their Messiah and Savior.

-- Rev. Jerry Falwell

If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being.

-- Rev Jerry Falwell

With friends like that, who needs enemies.

"With friends like that, who needs enemies."

Some Jews realize that, thank goodness for that, it will help them greatly in the long run.

They know they are simply being used, by the evangelical zealots.

IMV, it is symbiotic relationship, the Zionist are using the Dominionists, the Dominionists are using the Zionists, they both think they will get the world hegemony.

Many Jews are taking their voices back from the Zionists, like those in Canada, Britian, the Netherlands and the USA, who formed groups and issued prerss releases earlier this year speaking out against Zionist actions, and saying that Zionists did NOT speak for all Jews.

[moderateamericain]

I am not very surprised. Ever here the expression "There are no athiest in foxholes." While you sit safely in your homes watching the horror on the news and saying "How terrible" and then going back to your TV dinners, those of us who have seen duty in certain parts of the world like Africa and the middle east and have smelled the rotting dead corpses in the heat. Know two things for certain, A) there is a devil, because only he could inflict this kind of mind warping carnage and if theres a devil then there sure is a god.

[newbie]

I am not very surprised. Ever here the expression "There are no athiest in foxholes." While you sit safely in your homes watching the horror on the news and saying "How terrible" and then going back to your TV dinners, those of us who have seen duty in certain parts of the world like Africa and the middle east and have smelled the rotting dead corpses in the heat. Know two things for certain, A) there is a devil, because only he could inflict this kind of mind warping carnage and if theres a devil then there sure is a god.

Sorry, it's just man against man who caused such carnage. I wish people would quit using the "devil" as the excuse and justification for man's atrocities.

[cybercoma]

Sorry, it's just man against man who caused such carnage. I wish people would quit using the "devil" as the excuse and justification for man's atrocities.

Religious belief takes ownership out of the equation. Hitler was evil because of the devil.

No, Hitler was evil because he consciously made the decision to exterminate jews.

[Drea]

]

Religious belief takes ownership out of the equation. Hitler was evil because of the devil.

No, Hitler was evil because he consciously made the decision to exterminate jews.

Actually he set out to exterminate everyone who was not of the pefect aryan race, not just jews.

But I agree that using "the devil made him do it" takes the onus right off his shoulders. He is then not responsible as he didn't do it, the devil did.

On the same token if "the devil made him do it" then it must have been "god's will".

As god didn't step in to save anyone, even his so-called "chosen" people -- this is historical proof of the invisible entity's non-existence....

[eXploiTeD]

]

Religious belief takes ownership out of the equation. Hitler was evil because of the devil.

No, Hitler was evil because he consciously made the decision to exterminate jews.

Actually he set out to exterminate everyone who was not of the pefect aryan race, not just jews.

But I agree that using "the devil made him do it" takes the onus right off his shoulders. He is then not responsible as he didn't do it, the devil did.

On the same token if "the devil made him do it" then it must have been "god's will".

As god didn't step in to save anyone, even his so-called "chosen" people -- this is historical proof of the invisible entity's non-existence....

Your argument makes a good deal of sense, but in the end, I disagree. Christians believe in original sin and free will. Faith is what saves us, and faith requires purposeful, thoughtful action (will). Merely indulging sick and deluded fantasies has no bearing on God's will, merely on your own. In other words, an absence of faith in the face of Christian "facts" is a choice. And so while the Devil will tempt you, it is your faith that shields you... and if your faith is weak, so to will be your resistance to the Devil.

Mind you, I don't buy into this crap, but I have a good understanding of Christian theology. That is the inevitable response you will receive. The point is, according to Christians, is that Hitler was given the ability to make his own choices by God. He didn't obey the precepts of the religion and had no real faith; consequently, his choices were atrocious.

If this argument is accepted, it follows that Hitler's actions have no bearing on God's will, and therefore do not speak to any "historical proof of the invisible entity's non-existence..." I suspect Christians will also claim that WWII was a "test of faith."

[cybercoma]

The obvious next question is, what happens if there are people who've never heard of the "Christian facts," as you put it? Are they doomed to an eternity of suffering, will they not be saved, even though they have not made a choice? I'm sure there are human beings on this planet that haven't even heard of Christianity. If there is a God, will he pass them over for something that clearly isn't their choice?

If He does not save them, then he is not benevolent because it was not their choice that they never learned of these "Christian facts."

If He Does save them, then "faith" is not necessary and makes the whole idea of Christianity, religion and God moot.

[betsy]

Sorry, it's just man against man who caused such carnage. I wish people would quit using the "devil" as the excuse and justification for man's atrocities.

Wow, that sounds definitive.

Newbie, where do you stand right now? Do you believe in God at all? Are you just against religion? Or are you just attempting humour like the "second chance" humor you gave back there?

I may be wrong, but you seem to be angry. That anger is what's fueling your views.

[geoffrey]

The obvious next question is, what happens if there are people who've never heard of the "Christian facts," as you put it? Are they doomed to an eternity of suffering, will they not be saved, even though they have not made a choice? I'm sure there are human beings on this planet that haven't even heard of Christianity. If there is a God, will he pass them over for something that clearly isn't their choice?

I can show you the understanding of what Jesus asked Christians to consider quite clearly.

It's in Rev 3:15 (NSRV):

"I know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were either cold or hot."

Essientially, if you don't believe or don't have faith... you might do ok. Salvation is found through faith in Christ but people that believe and don't act are far worse off than you might be.

I don't remember where I heard this one, but it's easier for a prostitute that has never encountered the Holy Spirit to enter heaven then your average do-gooder that has constantly been confronted by God and chose to deny Him.

My personal belief on the matter is rather ultilitarian for a Christian... if you live a moral life, your going to do ok... plan to die giving more than you've taken and I'm sure you'll do ok. Not finding faith in God isn't always a personal fault... those that have found faith and either deny it or choose to willfully ignore it are far worse off.

I'm not prepared to discuss this on scientific merit though and I want to make this very clear. Theology stands alone, you can't mix it with science or western philosophy. People like Einstien saw this distinction... it's also the reason I rarely will enter a theological debate on this forum, people expect scientific like documentation, but I think that's really just an ignorance of what theology is all about. So ya, don't lump me in with the evangelicals because I put this up here, by no means do I expect you all to believe it or anything like that. That's the end of my disclaimer.

Cybercoma, you seem to have been quite respectful in this discussion, so if you want to discuss this theologically, then I'm all in. I'm comfortable answering questions about what Christians may believe and how that's reflected in the Bible. I'm not comfortable getting into an argument about the existance of God in a pseudo-Dawkins sort of way (by the way, his arugments are logical falisies from his first premise in the scientific method as well).

[newbie]

Sorry, it's just man against man who caused such carnage. I wish people would quit using the "devil" as the excuse and justification for man's atrocities.

Wow, that sounds definitive.

Newbie, where do you stand right now? Do you believe in God at all? Are you just against religion? Or are you just attempting humour like the "second chance" humor you gave back there?

I may be wrong, but you seem to be angry. That anger is what's fueling your views.

That's the trouble with the written word - subtlety is difficult to detect. I am certainly not angry. I just don't feel it's productive to always bring the Devil into the equation as justifcation for man's destructive behaviour. Man is responsible for his actions, period. To drag in a mythical entity as cause is ridiculous. And as far as God is concerned, I am an agnostic.