Public healthcare

[myata]

This is an interesting report: Study of Canadian vs US treatment outcomes on Yahoo today. It appears that on average, the outcomes of treatment in this country is as good (and in many instances, as the report points out, even better) than in the US. No matter that it costs $7,500 vs $2,900 (i.e. 2.5 times more) in the US. Looks like an argument that public health care is more efficient (in both costs and results) than the private one.

[Who's Doing What?]

Shhhhhh......

This is supposed to be a secret. They don't want anyone to know.

The rich can't make money off public health care.

Hehe I like this.

"Overall, Canada did better, and in fact we found a statistically significant five per cent mortality advantage to people with diagnoses in Canada compared to their counterparts in the United States," Devereaux said

[Leafless]

Looks like an argument that public health care is more efficient (in both costs and results) than the private one.

This is not what the Fraser Institute says:

"The federal government has provided provinces with an extra $36 billion in transfers for health care since 1997, yet Canada’s health care system is in worse shape now than it was 10 years ago, according to a new report from independent research organization The Fraser Institute. "

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readm...?sNav=nr&id=794

[myata]

Are you sure we're talking about same things? I couldn't find any reference to comparing public vs private in your referenced report. It only says that it costs a lot of money. Still, 2.5 times less money (per patient) than mostly private system in the US. With superior results.

[guyser]

This is an interesting report: Study of Canadian vs US treatment outcomes on Yahoo today. It appears that on average, the outcomes of treatment in this country is as good (and in many instances, as the report points out, even better) than in the US. No matter that it costs $7,500 vs $2,900 (i.e. 2.5 times more) in the US. Looks like an argument that public health care is more efficient (in both costs and results) than the private one.

Not suprised in the least . My use of hospitals in the past 6 years has confirmed my belief that we are well taken care of.

[madmax]

This is not what the Fraser Institute says:

What is wrong with the Fraser Institutes Methodology.

[Nocrap]

This is an interesting report: Study of Canadian vs US treatment outcomes on Yahoo today. It appears that on average, the outcomes of treatment in this country is as good (and in many instances, as the report points out, even better) than in the US. No matter that it costs $7,500 vs $2,900 (i.e. 2.5 times more) in the US. Looks like an argument that public health care is more efficient (in both costs and results) than the private one.

Not suprised in the least . My use of hospitals in the past 6 years has confirmed my belief that we are well taken care of.

Oh my goodness. Not the Fraser Institute! Remember, they also said that smoking was not harmful to your health. They are funded by interest groups and base their reports on what those whose pockets they currently have their hands in, want them to say. Most Americans are envious of the Canadian Healthcare system. My five-year-old grandson has many health issues and I'm always blown away by the care and respect shown to him and our entire family. He is currently thriving within the limitarions of his disability. If we lived in the states we would probably be bankrupt by now.

We have to remember that Stephen Harper has been a longtime member, not to mention Vice-President and President of the National Citizens' Coalition, a group started to oppose public healthcare. His rise to power has been funded by Private Healthcare ventures and Oil Companies, who also provide funding to the Fraser. I've pretty much learned to ignore any of their insane ramblings. It's not so much a think-tank as a pen for hire institute.

[August1991]

This is an interesting report: Study of Canadian vs US treatment outcomes on Yahoo today. It appears that on average, the outcomes of treatment in this country is as good (and in many instances, as the report points out, even better) than in the US. No matter that it costs $7,500 vs $2,900 (i.e. 2.5 times more) in the US. Looks like an argument that public health care is more efficient (in both costs and results) than the private one.

This article is based on a research report of Dr. P. J. Devereaux who is a prolific and strong-minded proponent of public health care.

I would be very surprised if Devereaux ever produced a report in support of a private medical system.

----

In any case, as many, many people have argued - including Argus for example on this forum - the choice is not between Canada's current health system and the US system. The choice is between Canada's current system and some system such as exists in France or Sweden. These countries spend less on health care per capita than we do and yet they have no wait times and no people sleeping in emergency ward hallways.

It takes a particularly stubborn form of Leftism or nationalism to defend Canada's current health system.

For myself, I prefer a single-payer, private provider system.

[geoffrey]

It takes a particularly stubborn form of Leftism or nationalism to defend Canada's current health system.

For myself, I prefer a single-payer, private provider system.

Ditto.

It's a really disgusting leftist idealism that is killing people right now. They can get over the fact that socialism lost the health care battle.

Now let's move on and get things fixed before more needlessly die and suffer.

[stignasty]

It appears that on average, the outcomes of treatment in this country is as good (and in many instances, as the report points out, even better) than in the US. No matter that it costs $7,500 vs $2,900 (i.e. 2.5 times more) in the US. Looks like an argument that public health care is more efficient (in both costs and results) than the private one.

<disconnect>

Now let's move on and get things fixed before more needlessly die and suffer.

[jdobbin]

It's a really disgusting leftist idealism that is killing people right now. They can get over the fact that socialism lost the health care battle.

Now let's move on and get things fixed before more needlessly die and suffer.

Given that the study said that Canadian and U.S. healthcare had comparable results, one would assume that their version of private care doesn't have anything further to stop the needless killing.

[geoffrey]

It's a really disgusting leftist idealism that is killing people right now. They can get over the fact that socialism lost the health care battle.

Now let's move on and get things fixed before more needlessly die and suffer.

Given that the study said that Canadian and U.S. healthcare had comparable results, one would assume that their version of private care doesn't have anything further to stop the needless killing.

They don't, that's why we need a single payer, private provider system like the rest of the free and democratic world that doesn't have wait lists, 12 hour ER waits and people dying from poor care... and they do it cheaper too.

[madmax]

They don't, that's why we need a single payer, private provider system like the rest of the free and democratic world that doesn't have wait lists, 12 hour ER waits and people dying from poor care... and they do it cheaper too.

Where is this world?

[bsigg]

They don't, that's why we need a single payer, private provider system like the rest of the free and democratic world that doesn't have wait lists, 12 hour ER waits and people dying from poor care... and they do it cheaper too.

Do it cheaper? How can a profit driven system be cheaper?

[August1991]

Do it cheaper? How can a profit driven system be cheaper?

You obviously have no concept of signals and incentives.

Even governmment bureaucrats send memos. Why? Because they seek a better (cheaper) way.

[bsigg]

Do it cheaper? How can a profit driven system be cheaper?

You obviously have no concept of signals and incentives.

Even governmment bureaucrats send memos. Why? Because they seek a better (cheaper) way.

Going to a hospital and having them do a credit check before they check your pulse, isn't a better way.

[August1991]

Going to a hospital and having them do a credit check before they check your pulse, isn't a better way.

Do you believe that Wayne Gretzky, Celine Dion or any of their their family members in Canada get the same treatment as you?

bsigg, are you clueless?

bsigg, you can live in your "Jean Chretien Liberal world" until something serious happens to someone in your family. Then, you will suffer a shock: the luck of the draw. If you are lucky, you will say that Canada's health system is strange but it sort of works. If you are unlucky, you will be frustrated and angry.

In either case, you will have no recourse. Canada's health system is Soviet. It has no future.

[margrace]

We now have two in our family who developed leukemia. My daughter's Canadian doctor told her that if she went to the US for treatment she would have to put up $250,000 US before she was admitted to the hospital. This doctor is a North American expert on Blood disorders.

My daughter was one of the victims of Harris's pro Harper type government who announced that 20% of the bimbo nurses had to go. She went back to work of course as a casual working in two hospitals 40 hours a week with no benefits.

She got her transplant within 5 months and excellent care. Her cousin also developed leukemia, she got her transplant within 4 months, sadly she developed complications and died. My daughter is back to work with no benefits working over 40 hours a week some weeks.

[myata]

August,

the report argues that in the mission critical area, publicly owned institution is as efficient, and substantially less expensive, when the private one. If you can disprove it by a substantiated argument, feel free to do so. Just (it was written by him so it must be wrong) won't do.

BTW I would agree that some non-critical care should perhaps go to private providers and carry reasonable user fees. But to experiment with already working system without any indication that it can be improved sounds like a grossly (unwise) thing to do.

Also, all my (rare) personal encounters with serious health problems (i.e. hospital care) have been up to the mark. One really needs to understand how widespread those unfortunate incidents are.

[scribblet]

I've never understood why people object to others purchasing some treatments or diagnostic procedures privately. Why would I care if my neighbour was able to help his family or save a family member's life by purchasing treatment. I see no reason why we can't allow for instance, mobile MRI clinics, it would sure alleviate waiting periods.

[madmax]

I've never understood why people object to others purchasing some treatments or diagnostic procedures privately.

It depends on what the objection is.

Why would I care if my neighbour was able to help his family or save a family member's life by purchasing treatment.

If your neighbour can afford to pay, then that is a benefit that many don't have. There is nothing stopping a person from paying for a service. Private Clinics and Private Treatment have always existed in Canada. You can even go abroad or to the US if you want to pay for services.

Many people have private benefits above and beyond. These benefits are often tied to pensions or to individuals working in larger companies. However, as happens so often, the benefits disapear when the company relocates or goes bankrupt. Many Pensioners and employees have lost their benefits in these circumstances. And they can't afford to pay out of pocket or even pay for similar benefits offered privately to individuals.

I see no reason why we can't allow for instance, mobile MRI clinics, it would sure alleviate waiting periods.

With Regionally based health care, it is possible to see mobile MRI clinics. This would be a government bandaid to not providing MRIs in the local environment.

This depends on where you live. Travelling medical care has existed before and exists today.

The fact is that Funding for Health Care has decreased while Government revenues had increased.

This was in direct relation to dealing with the deficit first, then, keeping the money and paying down the debt and offering large corporate tax cuts.

These ideas are accepted by the majority in this forum. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Health Care isn't free, and it isn't cheap. Particularly if you are going to use a Private model, it will bleed you dry.

[jdobbin]

They don't, that's why we need a single payer, private provider system like the rest of the free and democratic world that doesn't have wait lists, 12 hour ER waits and people dying from poor care... and they do it cheaper too.

How much cheaper?

[Topaz]

IF we really want to know which is better then we have to listen to the people in the US say. I heard one US woman one time say she was moving to Canada because she rather wait for the operation if she had to, BUT she couldn't afford the $30,000 for the operation she needed. Both, countries are going to be in trouble in a few years, when the baby-boomers and their doctors, also retire, making more shortages on healthcare helpers and professionals. I rather stay here in Canada and wait too if I have to, then pay out thousands of dollars I can't afford. As far a private care, there too you would see huge increases in services but if you are very rich than go ahead with private but it must not interfere with the public healthcare.

[geoffrey]

They don't, that's why we need a single payer, private provider system like the rest of the free and democratic world that doesn't have wait lists, 12 hour ER waits and people dying from poor care... and they do it cheaper too.

Where is this world?

Europe.

How much cheaper?

Tough to say, Canada's system has waiting lists, substandard care in many areas and 12 hour ER waits. A comparable system elsewhere would be really cheap, it's like comparing the new local Bistro to McDonalds.

If you look at this report, page 3, you'll see that the US is obviously the most expensive... but cheaper alternatives exist in France, Italy, Sweden and Finland.

Canada is about middle of the pack in OECD health spending. Unfortunately, we are pretty much bottom of the barrel for levels of care. Those European examples have no considerable surgery waiting lists and ER times are reasonable. Most importantly, they are universally accessible.

It's not US or Canada, there is another 40 some developed countries we can look at if we can escape the ego that is killing us.

EDIT: Take a look at page 4 too, standards of care and patient satisfaction. Canada isn't a shining example to the rest of the world.

Edited April 23, 2007 by geoffrey

[margrace]

Why do we need private care? If you can afford it go to the US.