Shooting Leaves 22 Dead at Virginia Campus

[PolyNewbie]

If the gun ban wasn't in place I doubt every student would be walking around with Desert Storm handguns in their back packs. But someone probably would have had a trench gun somewhere and put a stop to it before 32 people got killed.

To bad they were students instead of lawyers.

[guyser]

You do cherry pick dont you? Never mind.

[Guthrie]

You do cherry pick dont you? Never mind.

ok, tell me that salient point you really wanted me to address -- true, I do ignore some part of lot's of posts, usually because I don't consider them fair sport -- you know, as a fisherman, I know it's important to sometimes just remove a hook and let one go

[M.Dancer]

They already have some kind of gun control. What they need is some kind of gun prohibition. Giving the legitimate hunting enthusiast the capability to murder dozens in a short time span is ludicrous.

Giving the legitimate hunting enthusiast the capability to murder.... Is this the way you wanted to word it? It is not the legitimate hunting enthusiast that is to blame here. An unstable mind with a gun in hand is the issue.

If you give the legitimate shooter the capability, then you also give the deranged the capability. That is the point. The lethal potential of modern firearms exceeds all rational needs of the legitimate enthusiast...but the the needs of the irrational .......

[M.Dancer]

actually, the more heavily armed a population is, the MORE gun violence there is

Fact=cite.

Or just ask Australia since they banned many guns.

fact + cite

Yes please, ask Australia....and see if gun violence has increased or decreased.

[guyser]

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/buybac...1455665717.html

http://www.guncontrol.org.au/ This one does not back up what I said

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lott/lott30.html

http://www.libertarian.to/NewsDta/template...1.php?art=art56

[M.Dancer]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/buybac...1455665717.html

niether does this one...says gun crime was declining before the ban...

The report by two Australian academics, published in the British Journal of Criminology, said statistics gathered in the decade since Port Arthur showed gun deaths had been declining well before 1996 and the buyback of more than 600,000 mainly semi-automatic rifles and pump-action shotguns had made no difference in the rate of decline

The other links are not reputable sources

But the glad fact is, gun crime in austral;ia was already rare...so to measure an effect would take a microscope to detect...none the less the propagandists love to muddy the waters with it hoping to sway the confused.

[M.Dancer]

I think everyone will agree, keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and the irrational is top priority.

Firearms restrictions play their part.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gun-th...5366531574.html

[guyser]

niether does this one...says gun crime was declining before the ban...

Actually more than one says that, and goes on to say that it was declining but no change since the ban. Not one of them apart from the gun website said it was worth it.

The other links are not reputable sources

I was trying to go from memory as I had read numerous times on a gun site (go figure) how the gun bans just didnt work., I tried to find the links but it is buried somewhere in the archives, and those pages number more than 150. ( I aint searching)

But the glad fact is, gun crime in austral;ia was already rare...so to measure an effect would take a microscope to detect...none the less the propagandists love to muddy the waters with it hoping to sway the confused.

And a bad idea for me to include Australia as your point notes.

[M.Dancer]

Before we all get buried down under the stats...anyone interested in the Australian experiment should read this first........

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

[Guthrie]

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/buybac...1455665717.html

http://www.guncontrol.org.au/ This one does not back up what I said

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lott/lott30.html

http://www.libertarian.to/NewsDta/template...1.php?art=art56

lott/lott30.htm -- John Lott is an exposed fraud - please don't ask me to address him

Scott McPherson is using Lott for his argument - so it's exposed fraud once removed

Sydney's buy back policy is nothing I'm familiar with nor do I see how it fits this particular argument -- especially if they found themselves buying 80% non-functioning guns - as has happened with other buy back efforts

[guyser]

lott/lott30.htm -- John Lott is an exposed fraud - please don't ask me to address him

Scott McPherson is using Lott for his argument - so it's exposed fraud once removed

Sydney's buy back policy is nothing I'm familiar with nor do I see how it fits this particular argument -- especially if they found themselves buying 80% non-functioning guns - as has happened with other buy back efforts

On this case I cannot argue the point. I have no idea who John Lott or Scott Macpherson is. I do not knowing ly use fraud type sites, and to add I generally dont use Wiki as it too is known for having some bogus material in it.

It is on topic as it was being discussed that if we got rid of guns then shootings like this wont happen.

[Guthrie]

lott/lott30.htm -- John Lott is an exposed fraud - please don't ask me to address him

Scott McPherson is using Lott for his argument - so it's exposed fraud once removed

Sydney's buy back policy is nothing I'm familiar with nor do I see how it fits this particular argument -- especially if they found themselves buying 80% non-functioning guns - as has happened with other buy back efforts

On this case I cannot argue the point. I have no idea who John Lott or Scott Macpherson is. I do not knowing ly use fraud type sites, and to add I generally dont use Wiki as it too is known for having some bogus material in it.

It is on topic as it was being discussed that if we got rid of guns then shootings like this wont happen.

if you google John Lott you will see one of his antics -- as a lecturer he had an acct at his college computer lab - there one campus forum held discussions on his work, he logged on with a woman's name and talked about what a wonderful guy he was and what professionalism he used in his studies ... - he did finally get caught and had egg on his face for some time after

then there is the serious stuff, like a citation he made to a study which never occurred - first he cited it as an LA Times poll, then somebody else and finally he claimed to have conducted the phone poll himself but lost the records --- NO, I am not making this up - it is all findable through google

[jdobbin]

It's days like this that just leaves you feeling sick inside.

I'd only heard late in the day while I was at work and cringed every time I heard the number of deaths had grown in number.

[Guthrie]

...

Lott has recently confessed that to counter growing skepticism from researchers examining his data, he repeatedly posed as a fictitious former student of himself named "Mary Rosh" to praise and defend himself in online forums and debates with researchers. Lott has been doing this since 1999 but was caught when an internet sleuth was curious about "Mary's" extreme defense of Lott and traced the "Mary Rosh" identity back to John Lott's own computer. What else has Lott been fabricating?

...

Link

[Guthrie]

Mary Rosh thinks the world of John R. Lott Jr., the controversial American Enterprise Institute scholar whose book "More Guns, Less Crime" caused such a stir a few years ago.

In postings on Web sites in this country and abroad, Rosh has tirelessly defended Lott against his harshest critics. He is a meticulous researcher, she's repeatedly told those who say otherwise. He's not driven by the ideology of the left or the right. Rosh has even summoned memories of the classes she took from Lott a decade ago to illustrate Lott's probity and academic gifts.

"I have to say that he was the best professor I ever had," Rosh gushed in one Internet posting.

Indeed, Mary Rosh and John Lott agree about nearly everything.

Well they should, because Mary Rosh is John Lott -- or at least that's the pseudonym he's used for three years to defend himself against his critics in online debates, Lott acknowledged this week.

"I probably shouldn't have done it...

Link

[GostHacked]

It is on topic as it was being discussed that if we got rid of guns then shootings like this wont happen.

True shootings would not happen. However contact physical attacks, I suspect would skyrocket. Violent people are still violent people, with a gun or without a gun. What needs to be done is better education on gun saftey, and much more strict screening process for aquiring a gun of any type. When anyone can walk in to get a gun and many with criminal records already, the problem is not gun control but the type of person who has access to it.

My father has been a gun owner for as long as I have been alive. All of them registered (I think), all locked up in a cabinet. The ammo is locked in a smaller box inside the cabinet. There are trigger locks on each gun. I had helped my dad clean the guns after he had come home from a hunting trip. I had picked up the barrel of one gun (he had already made sure they all were unloaded) it was a shot gun, so the barrel was exposed on both ends (if you know how shotguns work) I picked it up and looked into the barrel from the other end. I got a 'PUT THAT DOWN NOW' and a smack on the head. I have never ever ever looked into a barrel of a gun again without checking the chamber at least 3 times. You can say my dad knocked some sense into me. My dad is a very saftey orientated person. Health and Saftey rep at his work and even is Mr. Saftey in and around the house.

Education on safe use of firearms is essential.

More strict screening on who can own a gun.

Because of this thread, I am, now considering purchasing a firearm of some type. I have yet to own one up untill this point.

[August1991]

It's days like this that just leaves you feeling sick inside.

I'd only heard late in the day while I was at work and cringed every time I heard the number of deaths had grown in number.

I felt exactly the same way.

There is something particularly offensive about shooting kids in school.

----

My answer to people who oppose gun control is to ask: where do you draw the line? Should an individual have the right to own a tactical nuclear weapon? How about an RPG? For the life of me, I don't understand why the US allows people to own assault weapons, AK-47s and the like. (We'll soon find out but this shooter in Virginia probably used an automatic weapon.)

My review of the statistics is that gun control reduces incidents involving guns. In particular, it reduces the number of single victim incidents. In simple terms, gun control works.

We can debate this at length but the debate will miss a major point. Gun control takes place in a political world. I can't answer for Americans but in Canada, this event in Virginia will only make it harder for the Conservatives to defend their abolishing of the gun registry. Gun owners are a minority and it is only the lop-sided influence of rural voters that has kept this issue alive.

BTW, I particularly like the Australian approach to gun legislation and I hoped that Harper would imitate Howard as he has before.

[M.Dancer]

My answer to people who oppose gun control is to ask: where do you draw the line? Should an individual have the right to own a tactical nuclear weapon? How about an RPG? For the life of me, I don't understand why the US allows people to own assault weapons, AK-47s and the like. (We'll soon find out but this shooter in Virginia probably used an automatic weapon.)

You now what's worse than an assault rifle? Automatic pistols. He had two.

[geoffrey]

The same thing could happen in Canada even with our gun control laws.

The same thing did happened in Canada. Gun control laws do little, they keep guns out of the hands of those that follow the gun control laws. It doesn't stop criminals from getting them.

Ironically, Virginia just recently refused to pass a law allowing gun possession on campus.

There's a balance to strike, armed students isn't what I want to see. I don't care to have the right to carry a gun at school. I woudln't.

It's days like this that just leaves you feeling sick inside.

I'd only heard late in the day while I was at work and cringed every time I heard the number of deaths had grown in number.

Me too, heard about it at lunch. The President of the UofC sent out an e-mail assuring everyone that security at the my school is effective. I'm unsure if I really believe that. I was at work instead of school today, so I don't know what the mood was there, but it seemed by the tone of his e-mail, people were very shaken up.

I don't know anyone from Virginia Tech. But I sympathize greatly with them being a student myself. Their situation right now would be life altering, I'm unsure if I could go back to school if I witnessed what they did today.

There is something particularly offensive about shooting kids in school.

I agree. It's one of those areas where you expect to feel safe.

BTW, I particularly like the Australian approach to gun legislation and I hoped that Harper would imitate Howard as he has before.

The Australians are on an island, where imports can be more easily controlled. Canada borders the biggest gun owning nation (we're not talking hunting rifles... AK-47s and all) in the West. Can we use the same laws? Not a chance.

The gun registry is an illogical concept August. Why would you register a gun if you were planning to kill with it? Many handguns and all automatic weapons are banned in Canada, outright banned. Yet we hear of the police finding them in Hell's Angels clubhouses and in the trunks of drug dealers.

A gun registry does nothing to fix this. Banning guns obviously does nothing to fix this. So I've got to say it's an unjustified incursion on liberty to prevent people from owning firearms to hunt, to collect or to target shoot. These people aren't murdering anyone.

[Figleaf]

My answer to people who oppose gun control is to ask: where do you draw the line? Should an individual have the right to own a tactical nuclear weapon? How about an RPG? For the life of me, I don't understand why the US allows people to own assault weapons, AK-47s and the like.

As a liberal, I believe I should be able to trust my fellow citizens with potentially dangerous devices, up to a point. As a citizen, I should be trusted with any device that is not inherently dangerous. By inherently I mean that it would be dangerous even if I am not negligent, reckless or malevolent. Like radioactive substances, wild animals, or gaseous poisons.

[Melanie_]

I'm a college instructor, and I agree with Geoffrey - I don't want to see guns on campus. The whole idea is crazy - why would anyone need a gun at a school? Some here are arguing defense, but school shootings aren't so common that daily personal defense is necessary - I suspect the need would grow if everyone carried a gun. I feel sick when I think about the victims, and my thoughts are with the families and the survivors of this attack.

[Remiel]

If you are really all gung-ho about having some measure of protection, why not advocate being able to carry other weapons instead? Why not allow everyone to carry concealed knives, or bows, or extendable spears? I'd rather everyone carry a concealed dagger than an unconcealed gun. Yet, somehow guns are the only weapon that seems to get this kind of attention. It's seem to be made into an all or nothing issue. Also, the reason why crime goes up after gun control I think has more to do with the publicity incite more violence in and of itself.

[Guthrie]

I don't know about other guys but I take my, "extendable spear," with me, everywhere I go.

but I don't think anybody in a suburban setting needs to carry a weapon

[Slavik44]

When I originally heard about this, I was on another forum reading a thread, it started with one person dead, and as I kept reading the number continued to progress up to 22, I stopped to check CNN.com and it read 30 dead. In such a short time I went from thinking, thank god it wasn't worse...to over 30 dead, it is worse...very sad situation.

I hesitate to launch into a post on gun control, when first and foremost our thought should be on the many people whose lives have been affected by this tragic event, but this is a political forum.

I think there are two sides to every coin or every issue, usually more and I think in this case both extremes are really two sides of the same coin. One extreme would have us believe that if every student at VTU was packing heat this never would have happened (probably because there wouldn't be 30 students left at the school by now) Lets face it University Campus+Drinking+Guns....not a good mix. But on the other side the complete removal of all guns is a lofty, idealized goal, plagued with logistical problems that make it impractical and harmful to the law abiding population.

I don't think the issue is Legal guns, but rather the ease at which guns can be acquired both legal and illegal. I noticed August brought up Assault weapons, and he said he didn’t understand why the U.S allowed people to own assault weapons. I think the obvious piece of pertinent information here, is that you can own assault weapons in Canada, depending on the region you live in, you often have access to a greater variety of assault weapons due to fewer import bans. I would suggest the difference is the ease at which they may be acquired, in Canada you have to jump through a number of hoops.

Likewise once you have these guns, there are certain laws in place about storage, Legally your guns need to be locked away, I believe with trigger locks.

I think this important, because it results in legal guns being protected and hidden away from criminals, who might otherwise break into houses and have easy access to a large cache of weapons.

In the states you can leave your guns lying around wherever you damn well please, in the seat of your car, next to your bible, or on the kitchen table. Statistics indicate that more that half a million guns are stolen in the U.S and that is only reported thefts from residential places.

I think this is where we can start to outline the Issue, there needs to be laws regarding proper ownership and VERY strong laws and punishments regarding the illegal sale of weapons. How guns are sold and pass hands, is not an issue to be played lightly with, it is not an issue to try one of those hug a thug strategy or attempt any form of rehabilitation, there must be strict laws surrounding how guns are sold and pass hands