Let's face it. It all begins at home!

[betsy]

This may sound like lecturing....but please, let me get this off my chest. We're facing serious problems regarding our youth today. And it's only going to get worse if we don't all wake up and start taking our jobs as parents seriously and responsibly.

Yeah, the new way method that had taken roots during the Clinton days, "it takes a village to raise a child," does not mean parents can dump the child on society and slack off as parents.

The common most-used phrase by parents these days...especially by mothers, is: "I need to get some time to myself."

This poor toddler that I have who's having serious behavioural problem had been dumped on me even on days when parents were on holidays! Out of two weeks holidays they had, they kept the kid for only one day to take him to places (I guess to alleviate the guilt that they've had nothing to do with him on those days), then took him to the daycare jokingly saying, "they could only put up with so much."

On Easter Monday, he's going to get dumped on me again (I probably would've had him on Friday too if I am open), and yes, mom sez she's on holiday that day but, she's "got to have some time to herself."

Btw, this mom also has "friends night out" a weeknight each week.

I remember as a child....I couldn't get enough of my mom! She was working at the time, and I crave and begged for those "cuddle moments!" I don't know if this is true to every other children....but there is a special closeness between mother and a young child. Although Dad was not out of the picture....the bond between mom and child is particularly strong.

We can blame all our problems now to the media (tv, movies, video etc..)...or to poverty....environment...etc.., Not that I'm saying they did not contribute to our problems now. The breaking up of the family is also largely to blame!

But I'm saying, with all these negative influences that will bombard our children, all the more we need to firm up that foundation necessary for them to remain firm and strong against the onslaught of negative influences.

Children are not accessories to project a certain lifestyle. They're not dogs or white picket fences or volvo and swimming pools. They're not badges to be put on just so one can say "Oh look at me! I'm a harried parent but I can juggle everything from career to parenting and having a grand social life!"

Nor are they a symbol of martyrdom.

Once you have a child, it's no longer about "ME" anymore.

[Charles Anthony]

Let me play the devil's advocate: what would you do if these parents took care of their kids themselves instead?

Out of two weeks holidays they had, they kept the kid for only one day to take him to places (I guess to alleviate the guilt that they've had nothing to do with him on those days), then took him to the daycare jokingly saying, "they could only put up with so much."

Come one! Cut them some slack! Maybe that one day was "quality" time...?

[margrace]

A group of boys used to terrorize an old man living alone, they would stuff feed bags down his stove pipe and the man would come out with his shot gun and spray the outside with shot. The boys would be laying flat on the ground laughing. A great game, if these boys had been caught they would have been severly punished by their parents.

Evidently the though of being strapped when they got home did not deter them. Of course this happened in the good old days when we had no problem with juveniles or so a lot of people would have us believe.

[betsy]

Let me play the devil's advocate: what would you do if these parents took care of their kids themselves instead?

Be a parent! Do my parenting! Especially if my toddler has behavioural problems!

Values are introduced and learned at home. We wonder why kids don't learn the the simple values such as....respect for elders, respect for other people's properties, simple introduction to manners and etiquette, etc...well, how will they get introduced to those if they don't get introduced at home right from the outset?

If values are introduced early on, it becomes just like a natural thing...

But instead, these days....we rely on the daycare to do those....we rely on our schools.

Come one! Cut them some slack! Maybe that one day was "quality" time...?

Define "quality time."

[betsy]

A group of boys used to terrorize an old man living alone, they would stuff feed bags down his stove pipe and the man would come out with his shot gun and spray the outside with shot. The boys would be laying flat on the ground laughing. A great game, if these boys had been caught they would have been severly punished by their parents.

Evidently the though of being strapped when they got home did not deter them. Of course this happened in the good old days when we had no problem with juveniles or so a lot of people would have us believe.

Of course some shenanigans happened then. Kids will be kids. But in the good old days, shenanigans were the kind that came with growing up...coming of age. A lot of those growing up behaviour we now fondly recall with amusement when depicted in movies etc.,

And there were some troubled kids even then, the rebel types...some who commit vandalisms....the "outcast"....experiments in the backseats....so yes, I don't think the good old days were that squeaky clean.

But did we hear anything about some of the type of "shenanigans" we so commonly hear now? Do you think we'll ever find anything fondly amusing about the choking game? Home invasions? School shooting spree? Killings?

The difference is that now, these things seem so common an occurence that our attitude is just to shrug our shoulders with apathy...and instead of pinpointing the roots of the problem and answers ....we try to justify the current problem!

[betsy]

I had taken sets of children for trips on various occasions to the local Independent Grocery Store, and the post office inside an IDA Drugstore. The manager at the grocery store came to the children as we were waiting in line at the cashier. He handed them "treats" (after asking for my permission)....because he couldn't believe how well-behaved they were at the store! From the way he was gushing, that kind of simple behaviour is a rarity these days. I need not have to tell you that my children all got their chests puffed up with pride! And were walking around like peacocks all day! And bursting at the seams telling their parents when they got picked up that day!

The employees at the IDA also commented on their behaviour.

At a convenience store, I took two older boys to browse at comic books. After finishing...of course the boys shoved the books askew on the shelves. I got them to put the comics away properly on the shelves and explained that the seller had to sell those and people will not buy them if they are not in good condition.

The seller/owner heard me explaining to the children and came to me, thanking me for teaching the children!

People will not always comment or give praises, so I tell my children: remember, people may not always say it outright, and you may not always get treats for behaving so well in public....but you can be sure, people notice!

If you see well-behaved children in public places....kindly note their good behaviour with praises or acknowledgement....to encourage those kind of behaviours. This also encourages the parents of these children (and we've got a lot of parents who do try their best)...it's like telling them, "keep up the good work, you're doing a good job parenting!"

[stignasty]

If you see well-behaved children in public places....kindly note their good behaviour with praises or acknowledgement....to encourage those kind of behaviours. This also encourages the parents of these children (and we've got a lot of parents who do try their best)...it's like telling them, "keep up the good work, you're doing a good job parenting!"

Although I haven't read Ms. Clinton's book, I think that's what she was getting at with "It takes a village...."

An excerpt on wikipedia reads: "CHILDREN are not rugged individualists. They depend on adults they know and on thousands more who make decisions every day that affect their well-being. All of us, whether we acknowledge it or not, are responsible for deciding whether our children are raised in a nation that doesn't just espouse family values but values families and children."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Takes_a_Village

[BubberMiley]

Some people can't stand kids for long periods of time. They're whiny, selfish, filthy, loud, and extremely demanding. I was fortunate enough to be able to understand exactly how birth control works, but I can sympathize that one might inexplicably, through neglect, stupidity, or hormonal madness, become stuck with one. Given the choice of going psycho on them---which any trip through Wal-Mart will show is an often-used option---or paying somebody to look after them, the latter seems to be the responsible option. Sure, you can say they should never have had kids, or they should enjoy the precious gift of parenthood, or whatever, but they are who they are and what is is. Ultimately, they might very well be acting in the best interests of the kids.

I do question, however, whether someone who doesn't agree with the concept of daycare should be providing daycare services.

[betsy]

Some people can't stand kids for long periods of time. They're whiny, selfish, filthy, loud, and extremely demanding. I was fortunate enough to be able to understand exactly how birth control works, but I can sympathize that one might inexplicably, through neglect, stupidity, or hormonal madness, become stuck with one. Given the choice of going psycho on them---which any trip through Wal-Mart will show is an often-used option---or paying somebody to look after them, the latter seems to be the responsible option. Sure, you can say they should never have had kids, or they should enjoy the precious gift of parenthood, or whatever, but they are who they are and what is is. Ultimately, they might very well be acting in the best interests of the kids.

I do question, however, whether someone who doesn't agree with the concept of daycare should be providing daycare services.

Of course, I'm sure you do know that this is not about disagreeing with the concept of daycare. Daycare is part of our life, the way our society had evolved.

Bubber, let's not try to revert back to our old negative ways wherein you personalize discussion by poking holes into my job...and I respond by wondering out loud if you are currently high on drugs...that's why perhaps you misinterpret what I'm trying to say.

I would like to keep the discussion within this topic, if you please....

But you do have a good point in your explanation about some people who end up with kids and finding they couldn't stand them at all.

And may I add that a lot of parents today "cannot stand" children..and are at a lost as to how to deal with their children (parenting), simply because they haven't learned from their parents. Today's parents are mostly the result of Dr Spock.

I asked the grandfather of this toddler (the child stays overnight with him and his wife quite often), if they have problems with him He said not really that much. Then he added, "well we tell him, if he becomes difficult...we'll take him home!" And he seem like the no-nonsense type of granpa either. You know, from the "old-school" like me.

[betsy]

If you see well-behaved children in public places....kindly note their good behaviour with praises or acknowledgement....to encourage those kind of behaviours. This also encourages the parents of these children (and we've got a lot of parents who do try their best)...it's like telling them, "keep up the good work, you're doing a good job parenting!"

Although I haven't read Ms. Clinton's book, I think that's what she was getting at with "It takes a village...."

An excerpt on wikipedia reads: "CHILDREN are not rugged individualists. They depend on adults they know and on thousands more who make decisions every day that affect their well-being. All of us, whether we acknowledge it or not, are responsible for deciding whether our children are raised in a nation that doesn't just espouse family values but values families and children."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Takes_a_Village

Thank you for the info.

[margrace]

When I worked in a grocery store in my teens there were never any children there. I never took my children shopping it just wasn't done. We never took children to restaurants either.

Children were seen and not heard. Did it hurt my children, I don't think so. They have done well one is a professor, one owns his own trucks, one is a nurse, one looks after mentally challenged people and one will soon be a plumber.

In the good old days if one was from a certain segment of society their shannanigans where excused but if one was from the wrong side of the track they still went to the penitentary.

[BZBee]

Children are what they learn....they are not born "whiny, selfish, filthy, loud, and extremely demanding," they are taught to be that way...it's called lack of discipline and the parents of these children are totally to blame.

[BubberMiley]

they are not born "whiny, selfish, filthy, loud, and extremely demanding,"

Have you even been near a baby?

it's called lack of discipline and the parents of these children are totally to blame.

Or perhaps the daycare provider is to blame, considering they're spending the most time with the child. But you're proving my point precisely by pointing out that some parents are pretty pathetic. Good on them for recognizing that and making steps to make sure the child grows up in a healthy atmosphere.

[geoffrey]

Some people can't stand kids for long periods of time. They're whiny, selfish, filthy, loud, and extremely demanding. I was fortunate enough to be able to understand exactly how birth control works, but I can sympathize that one might inexplicably, through neglect, stupidity, or hormonal madness, become stuck with one.

Here, here.

[betsy]

When I worked in a grocery store in my teens there were never any children there. I never took my children shopping it just wasn't done. We never took children to restaurants either.

Children were seen and not heard. Did it hurt my children, I don't think so. They have done well one is a professor, one owns his own trucks, one is a nurse, one looks after mentally challenged people and one will soon be a plumber.

In the good old days if one was from a certain segment of society their shannanigans where excused but if one was from the wrong side of the track they still went to the penitentary.

My husband and I were at a restaurant. This child of about 3 0r 4 years of age was all over the place. Going from table to tabl....and his mom was keeping an eye on him....but seemed to be not really bothered by her son's activity. I guess she figures he's trying to be friendly, trying to chat people up as they eat.

She must find him ohhhh so cute. He came to our table. We glared at him! And pronto, he retreated closer to mommy and didn't come anywhere near us again. We were not there to entertain the boredom of her child.

I mean, why and how can children learn some manners, respect and consideration for others...when some parents are so full of themselves?

If only children will be introduced to and learn at an early stage about the concept of showing some considerations and empathy for others.....just those two values alone.....the world will be in so much a better shape today!

[betsy]

Children are what they learn....they are not born "whiny, selfish, filthy, loud, and extremely demanding," they are taught to be that way...it's called lack of discipline and the parents of these children are totally to blame.

Definitely. Whole-heartedly agree.

[betsy]

they are not born "whiny, selfish, filthy, loud, and extremely demanding,"

Have you even been near a baby?

A baby spends his days sleeping, some minor league playing, eating, poo-ing and pee-ing.

If a baby cries....something is wrong! He's in pain, or hungry, or wet...etc.... that's how they communicate!

But you might be talking about a colicky baby. The ones that cries non-stop. Yes, some do exists.

A pair of earplugs and knowing when to tune him out is a must.

Toddlers are a different story. That's why they need to be taught. That's how they learn.

it's called lack of discipline and the parents of these children are totally to blame.

Or perhaps the daycare provider is to blame, considering they're spending the most time with the child.

Possible.

Some public daycares don't want to apply any discipline at all, what with probably part of union agreements and all, for fear of getting sued. Why, somebody I know was complaining that she got called from work to come to the daycare to handle her child who's having a fit!

It depends on the caregiver...whether public or private. However, caregivers from public institutions got their "hands REALLY tied"....they dance by a lot of rules....and these rules are not all about discipline either.

A loving caregiver with a real good knack in handling children in a public institution may not be able to fully demonstrate that prowess, even if she wants to.

And that's partly the big point I'm trying to make. A daycare is NOT a parent!

If you need or have to work for whatever reasons you may have....by all means, work! But at least, try to spend as much time with your child...and CRAM AS MUCH AS YOU CAN introducing and teaching your child to simple values (and this may definitely include arguing and butting horns with him...because just like any normal child, he thinks he knows everything!), and to have your child be as close to you (continuous bonding) as much as he can, to make up for those times you are not there! I know it's asking a lot of parents....but sorry, that's the main part of being a parent. That is your child....not the daycare's. If there's anyone who should love him more...and be concerned about his future more than anyone else.....it should be you. Daycares are just here to assist you. We're not here to fully take over your role!

So, where does he equate in your priority list?

In the early eighties, when I was working in an American daycare, children can only spend so much time MAXIMUM in our daycare. If I'm not mistaken, it's 10 hours. There is a reason for that: no matter how "homey" a daycare tries to be....it still is NOT HOME. And parents were strongly encouraged to spend time with their children. But of course, life was so different in the eighties....

Don't some parents sigh and say, "He's growing so fast. I want to enjoy him as much as I can"....well put yourself in that little boy's shoes. If he could only understand and formulate, he'll be saying, "I'm growing up fast. I want to enjoy the presence of mom/dad as much as I can....because once I start school...man, that's it for me. I'll only be seeing them when I'm home and awake!"

[BZBee]

Have you even been near a baby?

Babies cry, not whine, when they need something…toddlers whine when they don’t get their own way until the parent relents…they are taught to be whiny. Babies are not filthy unless the parent ignores the fact that they need to be changed; if a child is filthy, it is the parents’ fault. To suggest that a baby is selfish, loud and extremely demanding is just an intolerance of the natural progression of life….we all start out as babies (some people end their lives in a sort of second infanthood). Selfish, loud and demanding toddlers are a result of parents who just can’t be bothered and usually let the child run the household anyway; to me, these people just enjoy annoying others through their children.

But you might be talking about a colicky baby. The ones that cries non-stop. Yes, some do exists. A pair of earplugs and knowing when to tune him out is a must.

Betsy, I disagree. It’s not the baby’s fault that he/she has colic. My nephew suffered from colic so we took turns going to my sister’s to help her with him; she was not capable of tuning him out so was pretty exhausted. We walked him and tried to soothe him as much as we could; thank goodness, it usually passed within a couple of hours, but he suffered so much that we usually ended up crying in sympathy for him. How could anyone ignore a baby in pain?

Or perhaps the daycare provider is to blame, considering they're spending the most time with the child.

If a child spends more time with at a daycare than with its parents that, too, is the fault of the parents. A daycare center is to provide care for the child, not to discipline the child beyond what is necessary to assure the safety of the child(ren). Do you think a daycare provider should be able to adapt to the discipline methods of every parent? No way, and let’s face it not everyone will agree with your methods. These days, a parent can be arrested for what is considered “unacceptable” disciplining, never mind a daycare provider.

Thankfully, I grew up with my mom at home. We (6 children) never wanted for anything but we didn’t get everything we wanted either….my parents took the time to explain why we could not have it and there was no whining until we got our way; we knew better!! As far as I’m concerned, if you can’t afford children or just don’t like them, then don’t have them. If you need 2 salaries to live in that big house so that all the kids can have their own bedroom, fine, but that bedroom is no substitute for the love and time of a parent. Children really don’t need expensive toys or a big house to be happy, they need a good family environment, discipline and the basics (food, clothes and a roof over their heads). I admire the young couples these days who live on one salary (so very rare) because it is important for them to have one parent at home. So the kids don’t have the latest in video games; these games are just a babysitter when the parents want the kids out of the way. It irks me when I hear a parent, especially a mother, say “I work to get out of the house and away from the kids.” Why the hell did you have them then? Let me guess, is it so that someone else will have to deal with their whining, filth, selfishness, and demands, or because all of your friends were doing it?

[Catchme]

My husband and I were at a restaurant. This child of about 3 0r 4 years of age was all over the place. Going from table to tabl....and his mom was keeping an eye on him....but seemed to be not really bothered by her son's activity. I guess she figures he's trying to be friendly, trying to chat people up as they eat.

I mean, why and how can children learn some manners, respect and consideration for others...when some parents are so full of themselves?

If only children will be introduced to and learn at an early stage about the concept of showing some considerations and empathy for others.....just those two values alone.....the world will be in so much a better shape today!

Betsy, I am in partial agreement with you, and in partial agreement with the person who stated maybe the child being dropped off at day care when parents are at home is the best thing for the child.

And also, I would imagine you, as in other day cares, require payment, even if the child does not attend that day. Perhaps they want to utilize their dollars spent, instead of you utilizing them for doing nothing?

[betsy]

And also, I would imagine you, as in other day cares, require payment, even if the child does not attend that day. Perhaps they want to utilize their dollars spent, instead of you utilizing them for doing nothing?

In other words, it's all about the dollars? She'd rather stick her child in the daycare to get her money's worth.

Btw, parents are paying for the space. I can only have so many children...why should my income suffer if a parent decides to keep her child at home for whatever reasons?

If parents worry about paying for that, I guess they must worry about paying for holidays...and usually these types of parents are the type who'd load their child with tylenol to get that temperature down just so he can still be brought to the daycare (to hell with contaminating other children)...well, there are other daycares who don't charge for days the child is absent. I'd say they should go shop around to find somebody else.

But to be fair, I firmly believe this mom that I have is not worried about the money. They are actually generous. It's not about the money for her....I think the child is just too stressful, for her and her husband.

[betsy]

Betsy, I disagree. It’s not the baby’s fault that he/she has colic. My nephew suffered from colic so we took turns going to my sister’s to help her with him; she was not capable of tuning him out so was pretty exhausted. We walked him and tried to soothe him as much as we could; thank goodness, it usually passed within a couple of hours, but he suffered so much that we usually ended up crying in sympathy for him. How could anyone ignore a baby in pain?

Colicky kids are in pain? I didn't know that....I thought they just don't know why they do cry non-stop...I read an article advicing parents to leave the house to get a break from the crying kid.

One of my previous parents said her baby used to be colicky, that they had to give her a ride in the car to settle her down.

[Charles Anthony]

Let me play the devil's advocate again.

well, there are other daycares who don't charge for days the child is absent. I'd say they should go shop around to find somebody else.

You could shop around too: refuse them as clients.

Define "quality time."

-- an excuse for not spending enough "quantity" time.

[betsy]

Let me play the devil's advocate again.

well, there are other daycares who don't charge for days the child is absent. I'd say they should go shop around to find somebody else.

You could shop around too: refuse them as clients.

Why should I refuse them for clients? I'm okay with the child...yes, he's a handful little bully...but it's nothing that I can handle. He's actually improved in the daycare. I've had kids a whole lot worst than him....some I've dropped!

And by his granpa's experience with him, granpa knows how to handle him too. This child is playing his parents like violins! His problem is at home!

And it won't be corrected unless mom and dad face up to reality instead of running away...hoping it will get better when he grows up. Mom and dad can't even get their stories straight...one opinion contradicts the other!

In all my years involved in daycare I've seen some a whole lot worst than this little boy.

A few years back, while I was under a GOVERNMENT-FUNDED daycare agency, this agency gave me three siblings (all boys) who were apparently kicked out from other fellow-home daycare providers working under this agency. The agency was desperate to place them....that they even decided to turn a blind eye knowing fully well that by placing them with me, I was going over the ratio of children allowed in a home daycare.

The children were older 5, 7 and 9 years of age. I eventually gave them up too only after a couple of weeks with me. We're talking real trash talks, and violent display of play (pretend-stabbling with a toy utensil and outright bullying of the other children in the daycare)....and oh boy, when those brothers fought against one another it's real whackings! They were not bad all the time, but they definitely were a very bad influence on the others. I had to think of the others in my care...the younger ones were so intimidated.

The latest news I've had about them, one just got out of jail.

We felt sorry for them, they've had a tough life. Their mom (whom I've met and interviewed with) eventually skipped town and abandoned them with their dad, saying she couldn't handle the stress anymore.

[BZBee]

Colicky kids are in pain? I didn't know that....I thought they just don't know why they do cry non-stop...I read an article advicing parents to leave the house to get a break from the crying kid.

One of my previous parents said her baby used to be colicky, that they had to give her a ride in the car to settle her down.

My nephew’s pediatrician diagnosed it as “colic” and my sister was told that it just has to run its course and he would outgrow it…which, of course, he did. I know it is believed that a baby is not in pain but there has to be a reason for a baby to just start crying uncontrollably and, no matter what you do, he still keeps crying. If it is because he wanted to be held, he certainly had his doting mom and aunts holding him (and that didn’t stop the crying), he was fed (this usually happened after a feeding) and he had a clean diaper; he wasn’t a high maintenance baby apart from these episodes (and it did not happen at the same time each day). I saw this baby and something was definitely wrong. We tried the ride in the car….it didn’t help him and made it worse for us to hear him crying in such close quarters.