Children As Decoys

[DogOnPorch]

"And it would seem like wisdom but for the warning of my heart."

J R R Tolkien "The Fellowship of the Ring"

Oddly enough...LOTRs is thought by many to be a mirror of WW2 and the 'return of the Jews to Israel'. Other elements mirror Tolkien's experiences during WW1...

When he and CS Lewis made their little bet to each other re: who could make a fantasy novel first...Germany was preparing for war. By the time the novel was finished, Israel was a fact.

Tolkien said that this wasn't the case but still admitted that he was affected greatly by the times...but that it wasn't intentional.

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Still round the corner there may wait, A new road or a secret gate.

---J. R. R. Tolkien

[DogOnPorch]

Douhet made the simple but effective case that war is hell, so the faster you get it over with, the better.

I think that quote goes back a bit farther to the US Civil War...either Sheridan or Sherman...one of the "S" Union generals... I'm willing to bet Sherman. Too early to conduct a formal search...lol.

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I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice anything but honor for its preservation.

---Gen. Robert E. Lee CSA

[Peter F]

Douhet made the simple but effective case that war is hell, so the faster you get it over with, the better.

I think that quote goes back a bit farther to the US Civil War...either Sheridan or Sherman...one of the "S" Union generals... I'm willing to bet Sherman. Too early to conduct a formal search...lol.

"War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot, nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell."

--William Tecumseh Sherman. These words are from his June 19, 1879 address to the Michigan Military Academy.

W.T.Sherman

Sherman the realist (from the same link):

"You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end.

"The North can make a steam engine, locomotive or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or a pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical and determined people on earth-right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with.

"You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing!

"You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it...Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them?

"At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see that in the end you will surely fail."

-- The prophetic words of William Tecumseh Sherman on December 24, 1860 after he learned of South Carolina's secession. Sherman at the time, was superintendent of the Louisiana State Seminary and Military Academy.

[Canadian Blue]

German anti-aircraft units were part of the Luftwaffe. You're free to track each unit's movements and see where they ended up.

I'm not writing a term paper, give me the source that you had which shows that 100,000's of men left the Eastern Front.

That's nice. Keep thinking those warm thoughts. We'll crush the Soviet Don Front, swing north and take Moscow by winter...lol.

So let me get this straight, instead of training people in Germany to main the AA guns, they instead sent 100,000's of men home from the Eastern Front, once again give me your source for this information.

Don't be daft...they are German weapons.

Which is why I was surprised you said that the members of the Canadian Forces should know everything about them. Not to mention know that instead of training people at home to use them [which would make sense] they instead sent 100,000's of troops from the Eastern Front. I'm not going to waste my time going through hours of information to prove that your claim is ficticious, and it probably is since you can't even really defend it.

But not defeated. Germany literally fought to the last possible moment.

Yes against the Soviets, however once again I highly doubt that the bombing campaign in 1945 really effected the outcome of the war. To say that the bombing campaign in 1945 was the "war winner" is simply ridiculous at best. Most historian's would take issue with that statement. Once again read the link, it's easy to read.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwt...ombing_01.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwt..._storm_01.shtml

[DogOnPorch]

I'm not writing a term paper, give me the source that you had which shows that 100,000's of men left the Eastern Front.

I am not to blame for your inability to absorb information. Read.

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Nicky Santoro: Back- Back up, back up a f**kin' minute here. One minute. I asked you? When the f**k did I ever ask you if I could come out here? Get this through your head, you...

Sam Rothstein: You never...

Nicky Santoro: Get this through your head you Jew motherf**ker, you. You only exist out here because of me. That's the only reason. Without me, you, personally, every f**kin' wise guy skell around'll take a piece of your f**kin' Jew ass. Then where you gonna go? You're f**kin' warned. Don't ever go over my f**kin' head again. You motherf**ker, you.

---

[DogOnPorch]

Sherman the realist (from the same link):

Thanks, Peter.

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We have shared the incommunicable experience of war. We have felt, we still feel, the passion of life to its top.... In our youths, our hearts were touched with fire.

---Oliver Wendell Holmes

[Canadian Blue]

I'm going to assume that your wrong since you also seem to believe that bombing Germany to shatter civilian morale was the "war winner". Even though many historian's disagree with that statement.

You yourself probably didn't even read that link.

[DogOnPorch]

Yup...whatever...I'm wrong...your're right. America is evil...Death to America. Blah, blah, blah.

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To generalize is to be an idiot. To particularize is the lone distinction of merit. General knowledge are those knowledges that idiots possess.

---William Blake

[Canadian Blue]

I don't really recall the death to America remark. But either way it's fairly telling that this debate you had was more based on ad hominem; instead of facts. Especially with the above comment. All I asked for was you provide links which clearly and quickly show that 100,000's of troops left the Eastern Front because of the bombing campaign.

[DogOnPorch]

I don't really recall the death to America remark. But either way it's fairly telling that this debate you had was more based on ad hominem; instead of facts. Especially with the above comment. All I asked for was you provide links which clearly and quickly show that 100,000's of troops left the Eastern Front because of the bombing campaign.

Hey...you've won...close the sale.

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What we think of as our sensitivity is only the higher evolution of terror in a poor dumb beast. We suffer for nothing. Our own death wish is our only real tragedy.

---Mario Puzo

[Canadian Blue]

So another one whimpers again.

[DogOnPorch]

Have a kleenex...take two.

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Like all the best families, we have our share of eccentricities, of impetuous and wayward youngsters and of family disagreements.

---Queen Elizabeth II

[Canadian Blue]

Dogonaporch, do you have to resort to ad hominem in your debate. Seriously here is what got you angry.

I'm going to assume that your wrong since you also seem to believe that bombing Germany to shatter civilian morale was the "war winner". Even though many historian's disagree with that statement.

You yourself probably didn't even read that link.

It was more or less based on the fact that you gave me information which would have taken hours to even compile and figure out where each individual unit had gone to. I have neither the time or patience for that. If you want to back up your argument, use something which will take less than an hour to read. The fact you can't show an article which shows the effect of all of those flak crews coming back to Germany is more or less all the proof I need as I'm sure some historian would have picked it up.

[ScottSA]

I don't really recall the death to America remark. But either way it's fairly telling that this debate you had was more based on ad hominem; instead of facts. Especially with the above comment. All I asked for was you provide links which clearly and quickly show that 100,000's of troops left the Eastern Front because of the bombing campaign.

Hey...you've won...close the sale.

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What we think of as our sensitivity is only the higher evolution of terror in a poor dumb beast. We suffer for nothing. Our own death wish is our only real tragedy.

---Mario Puzo

It's hard to argue with someone who simply nitpicks every point with some vaguely applicable counterexample as if 1 offsets 100. CB doesn't really ever follow the argument, but instead throws up clouds of verbiage and slinks the argument sideways to something else. I've never taken the time to read one of his posts...he seems to have a driving need to engage in debate, regardless of whether he knows anything about the subject at all. Very tiring.

[Canadian Blue]

It's hard to argue with someone who simply nitpicks every point with some vaguely applicable counterexample as if 1 offsets 100. CB doesn't really ever follow the argument, but instead throws up clouds of verbiage and slinks the argument sideways to something else. I've never taken the time to read one of his posts...he seems to have a driving need to engage in debate, regardless of whether he knows anything about the subject at all. Very tiring.

I think somebody else failed to do proper research, which is fairly similar to someone else on here. I've posted links, and have done my research.

You know ScottSA, it takes a "real man" to admit he's wrong.

[DogOnPorch]

ScottSA: It's hard to argue with someone who simply nitpicks every point with some vaguely applicable counterexample as if 1 offsets 100. CB doesn't really ever follow the argument, but instead throws up clouds of verbiage and slinks the argument sideways to something else. I've never taken the time to read one of his posts...he seems to have a driving need to engage in debate, regardless of whether he knows anything about the subject at all. Very tiring.

The link I provided is easy for me to use as I'm aware of the various Luftwaffe organizations...in this case anti-aircraft units. Each unit's movement through the war is recorded with date and location. What more could one want in terms of details? A wiki link? I'd better write one then....very tiring indeed. Debating details of WW2 with folks who don't even know the basics is next to pointless.

So it's easier just to say..."you win". As it doesn't change the facts and I certainly won't lose sleep over the notion that Canadian Blue thinks little old ladies or whatever could operate these weapons. Fine...little elves from the Black Forest flew the Me-109s and FW-190s, too.

Here at home I have a typically vast library for a history buff. If interested, I'd suggest Noble Frankland's "Bomber Offensive: The Devastation of Europe"...one of the great Ballantine History of WW2 series. Ex-bomberman himself and past director of the Imperial War Museum. Easy read...good pix and maps.

Canadian Blue: If I Ad hominem you intentionally...you'll know it. If you feel slighted...my apologies.

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Casualties many; Percentage of dead not known; Combat efficiency; we are winning.

---Colonel David M. Shoup, Tarawa, 1943

[Canadian Blue]

The link I provided is easy for me to use as I'm aware of the various Luftwaffe organizations...in this case anti-aircraft units. Each unit's movement through the war is recorded with date and location. What more could one want in terms of details? A wiki link? I'd better write one then....very tiring indeed. Debating details of WW2 with folks who don't even know the basics is next to pointless.

Strangely enough few historian's seem to support your argument, I haven't found one yet. Once again why can't you find any historian to show that your claims that 100,000's of troops [a large number] moved from the Russian front to Germany.

Buddy, you said that bombing civilians was a "war winner", most historians don't agree with you. Sheesh, do people on the extreme right always rewrite history.

So it's easier just to say..."you win". As it doesn't change the facts and I certainly won't lose sleep over the notion that Canadian Blue thinks little old ladies or whatever could operate these weapons. Fine...little elves from the Black Forest flew the Me-109s and FW-190s, too.

Wow, I didn't even say that. What I said was that it would make more sense to train gun crews from the German population at home. I guess according to your version of history then it was only little elves and old ladies in Germany during the entire war.

Here at home I have a typically vast library for a history buff. If interested, I'd suggest Noble Frankland's "Bomber Offensive: The Devastation of Europe"...one of the great Ballantine History of WW2 series. Ex-bomberman himself and past director of the Imperial War Museum. Easy read...good pix and maps.

Unfortunately, it seems many people who study the subject disagree with you, as the links provided have shown. One would think they would make mention of 100,000's of troops being sent to Germany from the Eastern Front.

Canadian Blue: If I Ad hominem you intentionally...you'll know it. If you feel slighted...my apologies.

Buddy, you made the infantile "death to America" remark.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not very difficult to find citations that support DOP's contention:

...Also, in 1942 to 1945, over 1.5 million artillery gunners were manning 10,000 German antiaircraft (flak) guns which took a very heavy toll on RAF and U.S. heavy bombers. These vital weapons and their crews were diverted from use against the Soviet forces on the Russian front. In a very concrete manner, then, Allied strategic bombing interfered with the German war effort in a more than tangential ways. What it failed to do, though, was destroy German morale, that is, to destroy the German people's will to work under adversity and endure Allied punishment.

http://www.390th.org/warstories/offensive.htm

As to the overall issue of Allied strategic bombing late into the war, those who lived by the Blitz must also die by the Blitz, if only for vengeance and domestic morale. Like the Brits, breaking German morale was secondary and never achieved. But gasoline for Gerry certainly became scarce.

[Canadian Blue]

As to the overall issue of Allied strategic bombing late into the war, those who lived by the Blitz must also die by the Blitz, if only for vengeance and domestic morale.

Actually, some polls showed that the people who were most against the bomber campaign were the ones who actually lived under the terror of the Luftwaffe. As for vengeance, it seems to backfire, and the bomber campaign from 1942 to 1943 was a failure. It never ended the war by April 1944 as some suggested.

Not very difficult to find citations that support DOP's contention:

Actually it is, it was only one sentence in the entire article. But at the atleast you were able to take the effort to back your statement up.

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, some polls showed that the people who were most against the bomber campaign were the ones who actually lived under the terror of the Luftwaffe. As for vengeance, it seems to backfire, and the bomber campaign from 1942 to 1943 was a failure. It never ended the war by April 1944 as some suggested.

Of course it was a failure from '42 - '43, just as it was a failure for the Luftwaffe. But as the 390th citation relates, from failure came experience and the shift from precision to "area" bombing...total war from the air as little else existed in the way of offensive operations against the Fatherland proper. There was little patience for mercy and moral superiority from a British population that endured the Blitz, buzzbombs, and V-2's.

Finding historical references on this matter is not difficult for me, as the point has been much debated by historians and moralists alike, always in hindsight of course. One just has to be objective enough to see them.

[ScottSA]

Reams of evidence on this topic has been generated by scholars for decades. The only times terror bombing, as envisioned by Douhet, worked was during the Zeppelin raids of the first WW, and prior to the blitz in London. Germany had banked on the Blitz producing the same effect as the Zeppelin raids, but once things started rolling, indiscriminant bombing was ineffectual and just hardened opinion. Turns out that anticipation is scarier than actuality. Which is why the USSBS led to the strategic evolution of nuclear deterence...nukes were never supposed to be used...only used for deterence. The whole evolutionary dance from MAD to the so-called escalation ladder theories was a choreograph of complicated steps never meant to turn into an actual fight. Deterence works, as long as both sides understand the dance.

For an idea of just how effective a nuclear umbrella can be, imagine Iran having a competent nuclear arenal right now. It couldn't stand up to the thermonukes of the western allies, but it wouldn't need to. The mere threat of it retaliating with a low yeild atomic bomb would be enough to ensure that it could operate as a regional hegemon under its deterence umbrella. The danger of course is that the US and the USSR had decades to learn what each could be expected to do, so no one ever really contemplated a surprise first strike. Iran on the other hand is a loose cannon rolling around the deck in heavy seas and no one knows what it will do from week to week, so the probability of a first strike would be much higher. A lack of deterence choreography is a problem faced by India and Pakistan too, and I expect the next use of nuclear weapons will be in an exchange initiated by Pakistan following the next palace coup in Pakistan. Apparently both parties seem largely unaffected by the presence of nuclear weapons.

[ScottSA]

Oh, and BTW, I see that CB blithely ignored the fact that Dog was proven right by BC. Shame how some folks can't admit their mistakes.

[PolyNewbie]

ScottsA Iran on the other hand is a loose cannon rolling around the deck in heavy seas and no one knows what it will do from week to week

I think you watch too much television. What one arth would ever provide justification for an opinion like that ? When was the last time Iran ever invaded anyone ? When was the last time anyone ever did a military coup on Iran ?

[ScottSA]

ScottsA Iran on the other hand is a loose cannon rolling around the deck in heavy seas and no one knows what it will do from week to week

I think you watch too much television. What one arth would ever provide justification for an opinion like that ? When was the last time Iran ever invaded anyone ? When was the last time anyone ever did a military coup on Iran ?

Oy vey.

[DogOnPorch]

Once again...I provided you a superb link. That you're too lazy to figure out the details is YOUR problem....Buddy. But here are a few more...

The air front played a decisive role in the defeat of Germany. Allied air attacks forced Germany to dedicate vast amounts of manpower and resources to continental air defense, reducing the Germans' ability to fully support land operations. By 1944 over 800,000 Germans were committed to air defense, including the crews of about 54,000 antiaircraft guns; furthermore, a million Germans were engaged in repairing damage caused by air strikes. In fact, Germany dedicated more forces to air defense than it deployed to counter the Allied campaign in Italy. The air war also caused a significant shift in Germany's resource priorities. In 1944 more than half of Germany's industrial base was working to satisfy the Luftwaffe's needs. Albert Speer, architect of the German war economy, estimated that 30 percent of artillery, 20 percent of heavy ammunition, and over 50 percent of electronics production were dedicated to air defense, depriving frontline ground forces of critical antitank munitions and communications equipment. Production of antitank guns was halved in favor of building more antiaircraft guns.

Neillands firmly concluded that the bomber war was vital to the Allied victory. In addition to the tremendous damage done particularly in the latter years of the war, the bombing campaign opened a Second Front well before the invasion of Europe, tying down vast resources to fend off the bombers. Goering had to deploy 8,876 very useful 88 mm flak guns to fight off the bombers (Rommel's Afrika Korps only had 35 of these guns, which were quite effective against tanks). To man these guns (as well as 25,000 pieces of 20 mm and 30 mm canon) Germany required 900,000 soldiers (Rommel's army for the defense of Normandy only had 500,000 men). Similarly, many pilots and aircraft that could have been used to attack Russia or the United Kingdom were tied down defending the Reich.

The bombing offensive also dealt telling blows to the enemy's economic and industrial infrastructure, forcing an exceptionally resource-intensive decentralization of Germany's war industries, and that impact was huge, as well as tying down massive amounts of manpower and material just to counter the threat. It goaded the Nazis into massive and largely inconsequential retaliation campaigns, such as the V-1 and V-2 programs, while other potentially war-winning initiatives, such as a timely concentration on the jet and rocket fighter programs, were marginalized. Decentralization led to massive inefficiencies, but also to tremendous additional strains upon an already overburdened and vulnerable transportation network, exacerbated by the concomitant requirement this policy direction placed upon the need for petroleum products, most especially after the Allies started to treat oil as a high-level priority target in 1944.

In my opinion, the Combined Bomber Offensive had the following effects.

-Drew valuable men and resources (including day-fighters and anti-aircraft units) from other fronts to defend the Fatherland. Most notably in Russia where many units had to go without both air cover and anti-aircraft weapons. During the final 27 months of the war the Soviets enjoyed near total air superiority over the Russian Front.

-Destroyed U-Boat pens and U-Boat production blunting Donitz's U-Boat campaign in the North Atlantic.

-Interfered with transport of goods and material not only on a tactical level, but also on a strategic level. Much like anit-aircraft...much of Nazi Germany's field engineering capabilties were forced to be employed fixing railways in Germany.

-Production of oil was reduced to the point that during the Battle of the Bulge in 1944, a good deal of the Panzer Divisions simply ran out of fuel. The same can be said of aviation fuel. By 1945, it was easier to scrounge-up kerosene for the new jet fighters than high octane fuel for prop planes. Other important elements were also attacked by the CBO: Ball bearings being one of the continously hit production items...needed in most everything. Tank and aircraft factories were also favorite targets.

-Introduced electronic warfare which is essential in winning today's conflicts.

-Leveled many German cities. Inspite of Nazi Germany's will not being totally broken, it was not a picnic to be under a 1000 plane raid after a hard day at the factory. British/Canadian bombers carried more bombs than their US counterparts...but the US used its Norden bombsight to make up for the lesser loads. The Americans never intentionally targeted civilians while the RAF was far less sentimental. Often a major German centre could expect a 1-2 punch from both airforces. One by day...the other by night.

By late 1944, the Germans were taking conscripts from the Class of 1929...16-17 year olds. The Volksstrum was also formed at this time...old men and those younger than 16. They used Panzerfausts, Kar-98s and assorted Allied weapons...but not 88mm Flak guns.

Now, just so you don't nit-pick, all flak units were formed in Greater Germany then shipped to various fronts. They were under the control of the Luftwaffe...some never left Germany throughout the entire war. However, the vast bulk of Germany's ground forces were in Soviet Russia...if another front needed troops...this is where they got them from 9 times out of 10...much to the East Front commanders' collective chagrin.

There were Civil Defence Units made up of women and teens, but they were mainly manning searchlights and sirens...also very important...but not so much the flak units as they are very complex weapons...I'd say 'as I'm sure you know', but apparently not. In order to hit an aircraft moving 200mph at 25,000ft...in the dark at times...takes skill and training. As mentioned earlier...this wasn't Iraqis shooting into the air like it's New Years in San Diego. I have no doubt there are exceptions as there are with everything...perhaps there are even cases of swimsuit models manning the guns. Who knows? Maybe you...

Buddy, you said that bombing civilians was a "war winner", most historians don't agree with you. Sheesh, do people on the extreme right always rewrite history.

I said no such thing. The I said: "The night bomber offensive...while a success overall, ran into trouble because the Germans weren't stupid. They made a grid of their own where they placed a nightfighter in each square that hung around much like a spider waiting for a fly. The Allies suffered greatly. Halifaxes and Lancasters falling like 9-pins. Aircraft like the Heinkel 219 Owl, Me-210 and Me-110 carved huge holes in the ranks of Bomber Command." Unless you're refering to some other comment.

As for being a "war winner", the Combined Bomber Offensive was. That includes the Americans and their daylight bombing as well as the RAF with night-area bombing. Between them and the Russian steamroller, it was tits up for Germany. Sheeesh...I'm a lot of things...right wing isn't one of them. Harper sucks...so does GW Bush. I'm a political agnostic. I believe in good government when I see it. I haven't seen it yet...Buddy. But...you never know...perhaps when I close my eyes and vote next time around, I'll be voting for the same folks you vote for.

Buddy, you made the infantile "death to America" remark.

If you feel slighted, I apologize...again. You're calling part of my family's efforts during WW2 into question...I find that personally distateful and it made me upset. But, I'll live. Will you?

For those that care: Some good YouTube footage of Lancasters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMzxHs1o14U

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It is a fact that under equal conditions, large-scale battles and whole wars are won by troops which have a strong will for victory, clear goals before them, high moral standards, and devotion to the banner under which they go into battle.

---Marshal Georgi Zhukov