300

[Black Dog]

Me? I'll fight like a ....

I really, really, really doubt that.

Ahh Blackdog you are cunning at taking a discussion and turning it into an insult. The only issue i have with what you say is what makes you think I sit around thinking about it. It was the direction the thread took and i stayed with it. Besides I have nothing to prove by lashing out at your gentle insults. Its like a mosquito buzzing around my ears. The issue lies with you my friend. You obviously have an issue with Masculinity, were you the kid who got beat up in school?

No, my "issue," such as it is, is with the cartoon masculinity being fobbed off on us as a model for manhood.

Also since were using danger as a barometer for courage or Masculinity, I passed that test twice over and I was scared every time. But i still dont prance around in pink shirts with forced lisp, man tits, and more hair products then a fashion show.

See that's my point. What does one have to with the other? How is one's clothes or one's hairdo relevant to one's masculinity or inner courage?

What do you think?

For all the posters who are saying that 300 is not a masculine movie, have you ever served in the military, or been in a knock down drag out fist flying fight. I'm just curious as to what the responses are gonna be.

Again: I am not saying 300 isn't a "masculine" movie (in the sense of what we define as masculine). i just find the masculinity that it offers and others applaud to be shallow, brainless and pathetic. Not far off from the masculinity displayed by dumb beasts scrapping over a female or territory.

I've been in a few fights in my younger, dumber days. I fail to see the relevance.

see those Spartans fight and know that for there time they were the greatest fighting force in the world. Much like the United States is now. I cannot think of anything that would give me more pride then to have served in the "Spartan" Army of our era. (sans the homosexuality)

Why the aversion to homosexuality? The Spartans were raging boy-lovers and by your own admission, were the greatest fighting force of their time. (Incidentally, the crap about freedom and liberty in the movie was actually quite funny when you consider that Spartan society was as repressive and brutal as any, even by the standards of the ancient world.)

If you have never been in a fist fight before I highly encourage to do it at least once in your life. Even if you lose. You will never feel more alive I can promise you that.

I liked Fight Club too.

[M.Dancer]

And why didn't they wear armor? Real Spartans had breastplates and greaves -- these movie guys looked like a battle at Chippendales for crissakes.

Because bronze hoplites are less homoerotic than speedoes?

[ScottSA]

Again: I am not saying 300 isn't a "masculine" movie (in the sense of what we define as masculine). i just find the masculinity that it offers and others applaud to be shallow, brainless and pathetic. Not far off from the masculinity displayed by dumb beasts scrapping over a female or territory.

There it is. Why didn't you just say this in the first place instead of lipblabbering your way in and out of conceptual holes? Lets do it in point form:

1 The movie was manly

2 You don't like manliness, and prefer to scoff at it from a position of what you at least hope is moral superiority.

That wasn't so hard now, was it?

[Black Dog]

Lets do it in point form:

1 The movie was manly

2 You don't like manliness, and prefer to scoff at it from a position of what you at least hope is moral superiority.

Ooooh! Someone got Harvey Mansfield for X-mas! What is "manliness" and how does this movie fit that definition? Because surely it can't simply entail wearing speedos and shouting slogans (though I can see why that would appeal to someone like you).

[ScottSA]

Lets do it in point form:

1 The movie was manly

2 You don't like manliness, and prefer to scoff at it from a position of what you at least hope is moral superiority.

Ooooh! Someone got Harvey Mansfield for X-mas! What is "manliness" and how does this movie fit that definition? Because surely it can't simply entail wearing speedos and shouting slogans (though I can see why that would appeal to someone like you).

Good one. I know how you feel. It's embarrassing when you admit that the other folks are right, isn't it? Go ahead and call me names...I understand.

[Black Dog]

Good one. I know how you feel. It's embarrassing when you admit that the other folks are right, isn't it? Go ahead and call me names...I understand.

It's telling that you can't or won't answer the question. What is manliness?

[ScottSA]

Good one. I know how you feel. It's embarrassing when you admit that the other folks are right, isn't it? Go ahead and call me names...I understand.

It's telling that you can't or won't answer the question. What is manliness?

I have answered the question. You just spend thread after thread arguing about everything I said, and then letting slip that you agreed with everything I said.

[Black Dog]

I have answered the question. You just spend thread after thread arguing about everything I said, and then letting slip that you agreed with everything I said.

Sorry sweetie, but you're mistaken. Re-read the thread. I never disputed that it was masculine, nor was that ever a point of contention. Try to find a citation. You won't. My main points were about homoeroticism (which was mostly a sidebar that I pursued because you seemed to get your shorts in a bunch over it; of course, homoeroticism and masculinity are not mutually exclusive) and with the form of masculinity the movie embodied.

So maybe you can take time from your self-congraulatory masturbation to show where this alleged schism occurred.

Of course if you do read through, you may notice you never confront the subject (which would be the validity of the model of "manliness" you espouse). You take it as a priori.

[Canadian Blue]

Black Dog, I've asked ScottSA what manliness is, here is the kind of response you can expect to get.

Well, you continue skipping along with your head in the clouds...imagining all the peehoople...

But it is tragic that all those decades of hard won peace bred such a large herd of sheep in the west. I guess that's why those 60 year cycles happen...

Which is really a ridiculous statement because war has been going on forever.

[ScottSA]

I have answered the question. You just spend thread after thread arguing about everything I said, and then letting slip that you agreed with everything I said.

Sorry sweetie, but you're mistaken. Re-read the thread. I never disputed that it was masculine, nor was that ever a point of contention. Try to find a citation. You won't. My main points were about homoeroticism (which was mostly a sidebar that I pursued because you seemed to get your shorts in a bunch over it; of course, homoeroticism and masculinity are not mutually exclusive) and with the form of masculinity the movie embodied.

So maybe you can take time from your self-congraulatory masturbation to show where this alleged schism occurred.

Of course if you do read through, you may notice you never confront the subject (which would be the validity of the model of "manliness" you espouse). You take it as a priori.

I actually did "confront" it, although I'm not sure why I bothered; it being entirely clear to anyone but a feminist scholar. The movie embraced unashamed male pride; not simpering sensitive man, as the feminist world would have us do, or some twisted "homoerotica", as simpering homosexual critics would have it, but proudly heterosexual malehood. That is to me self-evident, which is why I take it as a priori.

Beyond that, as I have mentioned previously as well, the movie makes Virtu of ideals lost to malehood for a couple of decades: sacrifice, honor, duty. You mock it as petty squabbling over territory, but that is something you take as an a priori, spawned by a generation raised on relativistic cynicism.

Femininity is Virtu as it applies to women. It is not a Virtu in and of itself.

[Black Dog]

I actually did "confront" it, although I'm not sure why I bothered; it being entirely clear to anyone but a feminist scholar. The movie embraced unashamed male pride; not simpering sensitive man, as the feminist world would have us do, or some twisted "homoerotica", as simpering homosexual critics would have it, but proudly heterosexual malehood. That is to me self-evident, which is why I take it as a priori.

There we go: your position is laughable precisely because it demands we take the wonderfulness of full-chested masculinity as self-evident. It's circular logic. Perhaps there's more to it than "masculinity is good because good things are masculine," but one would't glean it from your arguments. Again: you've done nothing to argue the merits of that model of masculinity and you admit as much here.

The question is, why are you wasting time and bandwidth when you can't even be arsed to defend the central premise of your position? Or is employing logic something only simpering pseudo-intellectual girly men concern themselves with?

Beyond that, as I have mentioned previously as well, the movie makes Virtu of ideals lost to malehood for a couple of decades: sacrifice, honor, duty.

Another unsupported assumption. Let's see some proof that these are lost qualities.

You mock it as petty squabbling over territory, but that is something you take as an a priori, spawned by a generation raised on relativistic cynicism.

Not really, no.

[White Doors]

WWJD

No, it's WWCND?

[ScottSA]

I actually did "confront" it, although I'm not sure why I bothered; it being entirely clear to anyone but a feminist scholar. The movie embraced unashamed male pride; not simpering sensitive man, as the feminist world would have us do, or some twisted "homoerotica", as simpering homosexual critics would have it, but proudly heterosexual malehood. That is to me self-evident, which is why I take it as a priori.

There we go: your position is laughable precisely because it demands we take the wonderfulness of full-chested masculinity as self-evident. It's circular logic. Perhaps there's more to it than "masculinity is good because good things are masculine," but one would't glean it from your arguments. Again: you've done nothing to argue the merits of that model of masculinity and you admit as much here.

And your defence of your position is different how?

In a way this entire argument is inherently tautological, because it's subjective. It just so happens that my subjective opinion is on the upswing in our society's hegemonic opinion, probably in large part because its becoming necessary to revive it as we drift into a major clash with the enemy. Yours is falling out of favor; a relic of decades of fat rich peacetime, during which we could accord to pretend humanity is unisex and men are merely social constructs. As with Canada's ever-more pronounced political shift to the right, you and the scoffingly cynical will be broadsided when you finally catch up to the fact that the rest of society is far ahead of where you thought it should be.

[Canadian Blue]

I actually did "confront" it, although I'm not sure why I bothered; it being entirely clear to anyone but a feminist scholar. The movie embraced unashamed male pride; not simpering sensitive man, as the feminist world would have us do, or some twisted "homoerotica", as simpering homosexual critics would have it, but proudly heterosexual malehood. That is to me self-evident, which is why I take it as a priori.

Damnit, I wish I could go back in a time machine and fight for the Spartan's so I could feel like a real man.

Beyond that, as I have mentioned previously as well, the movie makes Virtu of ideals lost to malehood for a couple of decades: sacrifice, honor, duty.

What does that mean???

I guess if your only idea of having those ideals is by being ultra-violent, then yes 300 is what it's all about to be a man.

In a way this entire argument is inherently tautological, because it's subjective. It just so happens that my subjective opinion is on the upswing in our society's hegemonic opinion, probably in large part because its becoming necessary to revive it as we drift into a major clash with the enemy.

I haven't noticed anyone, military or otherwise who are really aching to kill people. Atleast most sane one's don't want to kill people.

Yours is falling out of favor; a relic of decades of fat rich peacetime, during which we could accord to pretend humanity is unisex and men are merely social constructs.

Don't kid yourself about the "fat rich peacetime". There have been plenty of wars since World War 2. I would hope that we would want to live in a time of peace instead of the perpetual war that you suggest we take part in.

Not really, most men are individual's, and have their own values and virtues. They don't need a movie to tell them what it mean's to be a man.

As with Canada's ever-more pronounced political shift to the right, you and the scoffingly cynical will be broadsided when you finally catch up to the fact that the rest of society is far ahead of where you thought it should be.

The Conservatives have moved to the center, as well most Canadian's support action on climate change, and the last poll I saw there was a split 50/50 for those who supported and opposed the war. That was down from 2001. Many American's are moving more towards the left after realizing how costly a war based on fiction is.

Femininity is Virtu as it applies to women. It is not a Virtu in and of itself.

You're talking about virtue right?

If not then apparently masculine men also have a love for fine art objects or curios.

[ScottSA]

Damnit, I wish I could go back in a time machine and fight for the Spartan's so I could feel like a real man.

You can't do the former and the latter will never happen

You're talking about virtue right?

Actually, no. I'm talking about Virtu. I'm not surprised you don't know what that means, but you really ought to learn subjects before you barge into them slathering egg all over your face.

[Canadian Blue]

Obviously you don't ScottSA, and I'm frankly not surprised. I'd assume that you'd atleast be able to explain it.

Let's see what my Encarta Encyclopedia says:

Virtu: love of art objects, a love of or taste for fine-art objects or curios

By the way a curio is an object collected for it's interest or rarity. Since you obviously don't know what Virtu mean's.

Beyond that, as I have mentioned previously as well, the movie makes Virtu of ideals lost to malehood for a couple of decades: sacrifice, honor, duty. You mock it as petty squabbling over territory, but that is something you take as an a priori, spawned by a generation raised on relativistic cynicism.

So over the decades we have lost rare objects of art?

You can't do the former and the latter will never happen

I think the measure of a man is his compassion and belief in justice for his fellow man. Yours is, well, I don't have any idea what yours are.

[guyser]

I am sorry , did someone order a couple of eggs ?

[ScottSA]

Obviously you don't ScottSA, and I'm frankly not surprised. I'd assume that you'd atleast be able to explain it.

Let's see what my Encarta Encyclopedia says:

Virtu: love of art objects, a love of or taste for fine-art objects or curios

By the way a curio is an object collected for it's interest or rarity. Since you obviously don't know what Virtu mean's.

Beyond that, as I have mentioned previously as well, the movie makes Virtu of ideals lost to malehood for a couple of decades: sacrifice, honor, duty. You mock it as petty squabbling over territory, but that is something you take as an a priori, spawned by a generation raised on relativistic cynicism.

So over the decades we have lost rare objects of art?

You can't do the former and the latter will never happen

I think the measure of a man is his compassion and belief in justice for his fellow man. Yours is, well, I don't have any idea what yours are.

Sigh...whatever happened to classical education? Tell you what... go here: http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/LitNot...pageNum-85.html then you can slink back and apologize for uncompromising stupidity and compulsive outhouse falling-into.

[Canadian Blue]

Sigh...whatever happened to classical education?

Ever hear of a dictionary?

Virtù is the human energy or action that stands in opposition to fortune. While Machiavelli’s use of the word does not exclude the idea of goodness or virtuous behavior, it does not necessarily include it, either. Virtù is drive, talent, or ability directed toward the achievement of certain goals, and it is the most vital quality for a prince. Even criminals like Agathocles or extremely cruel rulers like Severus can possess virtù.

then you can slink back and apologize for uncompromising stupidity and compulsive outhouse falling-into.

No thank's, my definition was correct, according to my dictionary and encyclopedia. So now you can slink back and think about how much of a man you are because you watched a move and imagined you were King Leonidas.

[ScottSA]

Sigh...whatever happened to classical education?

Ever hear of a dictionary?

Virtù is the human energy or action that stands in opposition to fortune. While Machiavelli’s use of the word does not exclude the idea of goodness or virtuous behavior, it does not necessarily include it, either. Virtù is drive, talent, or ability directed toward the achievement of certain goals, and it is the most vital quality for a prince. Even criminals like Agathocles or extremely cruel rulers like Severus can possess virtù.

then you can slink back and apologize for uncompromising stupidity and compulsive outhouse falling-into.

No thank's, my definition was correct, according to my dictionary and encyclopedia. So now you can slink back and think about how much of a man you are because you watched a move and imagined you were King Leonidas.

It takes an exceptionally small person to be shown to be wrong and refuse to admit it. Toodles...I was right about you all along. You'll never be able to understand what real manhood is about.

[Canadian Blue]

It takes an exceptionally small person to be shown to be wrong and refuse to admit it. Toodles...I was right about you all along. You'll never be able to understand what real manhood is about.

Yeah, because I found out that their was a definition which was the complete opposite of what you consider to be manhood.

Not really son, your a very weak man. First of all whenever someone disagrees with you, you simply call them stupid, even if you are in the wrong. Second, you believe that we should be killing women and children overseas, which is fairly manly apparently.

Either way I figured out who you are, a weak, cowardly, little man, who need's everyone else to do his battles for him. Toodles sugar puff.

[Canadian Blue]

By the way, I feel perfectly fine about my manhood. I don't need a movie to show me what being a man is all about.

[ScottSA]

It takes an exceptionally small person to be shown to be wrong and refuse to admit it. Toodles...I was right about you all along. You'll never be able to understand what real manhood is about.

Either way I figured out who you are, a weak, cowardly, little man, who need's everyone else to do his battles for him. Toodles sugar puff.

Oh, good one!

[moderateamericain]

Sigh...whatever happened to classical education?

Ever hear of a dictionary?

Virtù is the human energy or action that stands in opposition to fortune. While Machiavelli’s use of the word does not exclude the idea of goodness or virtuous behavior, it does not necessarily include it, either. Virtù is drive, talent, or ability directed toward the achievement of certain goals, and it is the most vital quality for a prince. Even criminals like Agathocles or extremely cruel rulers like Severus can possess virtù.

then you can slink back and apologize for uncompromising stupidity and compulsive outhouse falling-into.

No thank's, my definition was correct, according to my dictionary and encyclopedia. So now you can slink back and think about how much of a man you are because you watched a move and imagined you were King Leonidas.

It takes an exceptionally small person to be shown to be wrong and refuse to admit it. Toodles...I was right about you all along. You'll never be able to understand what real manhood is about.

Im gonna go ahead and tap out, its kind of descended into a snide comment war, even im guilty of it at this point. Anyways, I have my opinion you have yours.

[Canadian Blue]

ScottSA, just out of curiosity, what makes you a man?