9/11

[Canadian Blue]

Isn't it also odd that the media reported this:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/12/05/columbine.diary/

Coincidence, I think not!!!

[stignasty]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

The fact that this man is alive... <Picture of Dylan Avery>

...is proof that "Loose Change" is bullshit.

Here's why:

1. The man in the picture above is Dylan Avery. To be more precise, the fact that Dylan, his friends, and family are alive, is proof that "Loose Change" is bullshit. He, along with a couple of his friends, created a 9/11 conspiracy video claiming that the US government and the military caused 9/11. Take a closer look at the last part of that last sentence: he's claiming that the US government, for whatever ends, killed nearly 3,000 innocent Americans, and tens if not hundreds of thousands of more lives in the conflicts that ensued because of it.

2. Since Dylan's arguing that the government has no problem killing 3,000 innocent people, this raises the question: if his documentary is true, and we've established that the government has no ethical qualms about killing thousands of its own people, then why wouldn't the government kill Avery and his friends as well? What's a few more lives to them to ensure the success of this conspiracy?

Whatever reason it may be that the government supposedly orchestrated this conspiracy, it must have been worth it to them to cause so much suffering and loss of life. So if there's any truth to this, then you can bet your ass that the government wouldn't let a couple of pecker-neck chumps with a couple of Macs and too much time on their hands jeopardise their entire operation by letting this stupid video float around on the Internet. I can picture you morons emailing me now: "BUT MADOX, MAYBE DYLAN POSTED IT ON THE INTERNET BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT HAD A CHANCE TO REMOVE IT LOL." Yeah, too bad this rebuttal is inconsistent with the premise of Dylan's shit-festival of a movie: that the WTC was brought down "in a carefully planned and controlled demolition ... and it was pulled off with military precision." Now we're expected to believe that the same government that was able to commit the largest terrorist operation in history--with military precision no less--is suddenly too incompetent to sniff out and shut down a little website set up by some college losers within days, if not minutes of its creation? The US government has the capability to monitor every electronic communication made anywhere in the world, yet we're expected to believe that they wouldn't be able to nix this kid long before his video ever became popular?

I win. There is no conspiracy. Eat my shit, losers.

[PolyNewbie]

Wilber:It wouldn't be difficult to fly the aircraft into the buildings using the autopilot but it would have to be done by the crew aboard the aircraft. There is no way it could have been done by remote control without doing extensive modifications to the aircraft. Even then the autopilot could be easily overridden by the crew.

Anything like this is possible, Hawkings & McConnel thinmk its a reality. McConnel was a military pilot and an airline pilot. We all know automatic drones are possible and that they wouldn't have to put crew overrides in place. David Hawkings (Hawks Cafe) has all the gruesome details. He has a 4 hr DVD and I have it but haven't watched it yet.

[PolyNewbie]

stignasty:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

I think there should be additional captions to that cartoon and it would go something like this.

" Ha Ha. We know its right in front of them - thats the best way to do it. Increduluity is our camelflage and it worked in Oklahoma plus there is that 2.3 trillion dollars missing and no one is asking questions.

Remember Oklahoma where we set off that bomb almost knocking over that one building from a supposed truck bomb and hardly damaged that building across the street ? Even after a navy bomb expert testified in congress that that official version was impossible and that bombs had to have been planted in the building nobody woke up.

I bet that after this more peaple even start believing Oswald shot Kennedy. Rumsfeld want to tell them the moon is made of cheese and that the cow is hiding behind Jupiter for a joke but Bush Sr stopped him."

[PolyNewbie]

"Besides, you know about banking right ? All we do is print off the money, make them work for it and then make them pay it back with interest ! They know that we knew the Japanese were comming in ww2 and that we let them bomb us to get us into the war and they are still paying for it. All we did was print off sheets of paper with numbers on it and they are still working to pay it all back.

Trust me, you can never undersestimate the stupidity of the public. In a few years we will ahve the cops pick up the cute kids off the street and you and I will have our own harem of 15 year old sex slaves. By then you will have forgotten about all of this"

[PolyNewbie]

"Have you ever read the military commissions act ? Legally we can already pick up the cute kids off the streets but we have to call them terrorists - don't worry the word 'terrorsist' has no real definition. Its against the law for any of them to say anything about it to anyone when they see us do it. All we have to do is keep the kids offshore in kiddie brothels and they can't even prosecute us for it. Haliburton has been doing it for years and its even been in the paper. Trust me ... you have nothing to worry about.

Its not our fault they are so stupid. The human genome has evolved into a sub species and its up to us to take advantage or someone else will"

[PolyNewbie]

That was in one of the alternative papers in Toronto. A week later there were letters to the editor talking about the actual evidence supporting the claim - something Dyer failed to do. I bet hes feeling pretty stupid right now.

Dyer: ...At least

ten thousand people were in on it...

I've heard intelligence experts say maybe 8 - 12 people were in on it. Intelligence works on compartmentalization. Given that Dyyer is not an intelligence expert and he failed to consult any I think Dyyer is pretty much shown to be an idiot.

I've explained very plausibly that only 10 or so people would have to be aware of it all and explained exactly how that is and I am no intelligence expert althouygh I am much more intelligent than Dyer. No one has tried to say my explanation is impossible.

[PolyNewbie]

"Besides, what the worse that could happen ? .. GW gets impeached, we put Obama in power and everyone goes back to sleep. In a few years we blow up the Sears tower and watch our Haliburton stock go through the roof again and re open the brothels"

[stignasty]

I've explained very plausibly that only 10 or so people would have to be aware of it all and explained exactly how that is and I am no intelligence expert althouygh I am much more intelligent than Dyer.

And I'm a better guitarist than Jimmy Page.

Anyway, here's some light reading for you: http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

[Chuck U. Farlie]

I've explained very plausibly that only 10 or so people would have to be aware of it all and explained exactly how that is and I am no intelligence expert althouygh I am much more intelligent than Dyer.

Hahaha... you are smarter than Dyer? For starters, he can spell. Secondly, he is published weekly in 100's of world wide newspapers.

What is it you do for a living? Give me 1 reason why I should believe any of the crap you type on a discussion forum versus an internationally recognized journalist, columnist, broadcaster and lecturer on international affairs who has served in 3 navies?

The choice is easy for me... whack-job? or respected journalist? hmmmmm... hard choice.

from http://www.gwynnedyer.net/

GWYNNE DYER has worked as a freelance journalist, columnist, broadcaster and lecturer on international affairs for more than 20 years, but he was originally trained as an historian. Born in Newfoundland, he received degrees from Canadian, American and British universities, finishing with a Ph.D. in Military and Middle Eastern History from the University of London. He served in three navies and held academic appointments at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and Oxford University before launching his twice-weekly column on international affairs, which is published by over 175 papers in some 45 countries.

His first television series, the 7-part documentary 'War', was aired in 45 countries in the mid-80s. One episode, 'The Profession of Arms', was nominated for an Academy Award. His more recent works include the 1994 series 'The Human Race', and 'Protection Force', a three-part series on peacekeepers in Bosnia, both of which won Gemini awards. His award-winning radio documentaries include 'The Gorbachev Revolution', a seven-part series based on Dyer's experiences in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union in 1987-90, and 'Millenium', a six-hour series on the emerging global culture.

His current projects include a book and a television documentary on the looming strategic confrontation in Asia and a radio series on the long-range political and demographic implications of extreme climate change.

[Figleaf]

How is The International House of Pancakes, involved in the banks and 9/11?

Isn't it obvious? They are Islamic terrorists. No pork in a pancake.

[Figleaf]

Personally, I don't think the US government made it happen or let it happen.

It's much more likely that rogue elements of the U.S. intelligence community engaged as 'consultants' for the New American Century/Skull-and-Bones/Bush Crime Family did it under the noses of law enforcement and security authorities.

[Canadian Blue]

Wow Polynewbie sure enjoys talking to himself.

[PolyNewbie]

Hahaha... you are smarter than Dyer? For starters, he can spell. Secondly, he is published weekly in 100's of world wide newspapers.

What is it you do for a living? Give me 1 reason why I should believe any of the crap you type on a discussion forum versus an internationally recognized journalist, columnist, broadcaster and lecturer on international affairs who has served in 3 navies?

I'll give you one reason: I talk about indisputable evidence and listen to & quote experts. I can prove 911 was an inside job using undisputable evidence.

Dyer speaks from his rectum, there is a lot of demand for that these days which is why he publishes in 100 news sources. O'Reilly is payed attention to by even more people than Dyer - you an O'Reilly fan.

I have a degree in engineering but program for a living.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Hahaha... you are smarter than Dyer? For starters, he can spell. Secondly, he is published weekly in 100's of world wide newspapers.

What is it you do for a living? Give me 1 reason why I should believe any of the crap you type on a discussion forum versus an internationally recognized journalist, columnist, broadcaster and lecturer on international affairs who has served in 3 navies?

I'll give you one reason: I talk about indisputable evidence and listen to & quote experts. I can prove 911 was an inside job using undisputable evidence.

Dyer speaks from his rectum, there is a lot of demand for that these days which is why he publishes in 100 news sources. O'Reilly is payed attention to by even more people than Dyer - you an O'Reilly fan.

I have a degree in engineering but program for a living.

I think there are 17 pages or more on this forum of amateurs disputing your evidence... I could only imagine how experts would tear it apart - I hardly call that indisputable.

So what is your undeniable indisputable proof?

[PolyNewbie]

So what is your undeniable indisputable proof?

First page on the thread - all verifiable & falsifiable fact.

Collapse of wtc7. Even the FEMA report says the official version has only a "low probability of occurance". The first NIST reports didn't even try to explain it. No official report explains the actual building collapses.

Evidence of explosives - sulfidization, melted steel.

Piles of experts agree. Google "911Patriots".

[stignasty]

So what is your undeniable indisputable proof?

First page on the thread - all verifiable & falsifiable fact.

So you admit that it was falsified? Well then...

Collapse of wtc7. Even the FEMA report says the official version has only a "low probability of occurance". The first NIST reports didn't even try to explain it. No official report explains the actual building collapses.

That's misleading. The first reports may have said that, but that's not the case now. The NIST hasn't offered its final report on the collapse of building 7. It's expected this spring. They stated the following in December of 2006.

The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster(Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:

An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;

Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up tothe east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and

Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors)resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.

This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation.

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/WTC7_Approach_Summary12Dec06.pdf

Evidence of explosives - sulfidization, melted steel.

There may have been evidence of explosions, but not of explosives. There are a lot of things that can go boom in a big building on fire including transformers and fuel tanks for generators.

NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers. The thermite idea just doesn't wash.

They found melted metal - it was never confirmed to be steel. It may have been aluminum which melts at a much lower temperature.

Piles of experts agree. Google "911Patriots".

I googled 911Patriots, just like you suggested.

Nothing about "piles of experts" there, sorry.

According to Mark Roberts, who wrote the Loose Change 2nd Edition Viewer Guide, "As far as I know, as of April, 2006, not a single structural engineer in the world has expressed support for any WTC conspiracy theory, and certainly no one who worked on the investigation has. Zero."

Can you offer a qualified structural engineer to counter this argument?

If those are your best arguments to convince me that a conspiracy perpetrated by Americans against their own people took place, you have failed.

[ScottSA]

I have a hard time imagining that this poll even exists. It's like half the world has been transported to neverneverland and believe the most outrageous things...a prosecutor could only dream of prosecuting as open and shut a case as this:

Motive

Opportunity

Weapon

Victims

that would be a good start, but then we have

video footage of the crime

photographic evidence of the crime

6 billion realtime eyewitnesses to the crime

confession tapes of the direct perps

confession tapes of the planners

subsidiary confessions from just about everyone is sight.

public enquiries into the crime

This makes the OJ Simpson trial look like the Dreyfus affair. It's ridiculous to question it. It's like arguing that the sun didn't rise this morning, while one is getting a sunburn.

But for some reason, a whole whack of people are willing to believe a couple of kids in a basement splicing together clips and playing it to a background of sinister music, over common sense and all the evidence. Is it merely Bush derangement syndrome or has our society truly gone off the rails?

[PolyNewbie]

ScottsA: 6 billion realtime eyewitnesses to the crime

Few doubts that planes hit the buildings

confession tapes of the direct perps

That wasn't Usama bin Laden. That was a black guy carrying around and extra 50 pounds and he had a pug nose. The audio for the tape wasn't avaiable - I think he was planning his sisters wedding. bin Laden is a tall thin middle eastern guy with long nose that had earlier released a statement saying he had no involvement.

fake Usama confession tape

confession tapes of the planners

After four years of torture the confessor confessed to all kinds of things - even stuff that was done after he was imprisoned.

subsidiary confessions from just about everyone is sight.

Who else ?

public enquiries into the crime

Where ?

ScottsA:Motive

Opportunity

Weapon

Victims

What was the motive ?

How did he have the opportunity to fly around US airspace for 1/2 hour without being intercepted like 200 or so other flights before him that had gone off course ? How did they get Rumsfeld to give the stand down order on Pentagon defences ?

How did they turn an airplane into a weapon using only box cutters when there was military pilots on board + hundreds of passengers. These guys didn't look very big or in particularly good shape to pull that off.

No one doubts that there were victims although no trace of victims could be found at Shanksville Pennslyvania.

[PolyNewbie]

911Patriots

"As far as I know, as of April, 2006, not a single structural engineer in the world has expressed support for any WTC conspiracy theory, and certainly no one who worked on the investigation has. Zero."

Judy Wood is a professor of materials and structural engineering and says the official version is impossible

Judy Wood Analysis

Col Robert Bowman has Phd in nuclear and aeronautical engineering says the official version is impossible - "a bunch of hogwash"

-see my link to 911Patriots above

Thats two.

[stignasty]

911Patriots

Nope, no structural engineers.

[PolyNewbie]

aeronatics has structures in it. If you don't believe me look inside an airplane - also dynamically loaded structures - much more complex than buildings.

Bowman has a Phd in aeronatical engineering and in nuclear engineering which is the most difficult of the engineering disciplines.

Judy Wood specifically specializes in structures.

[PolyNewbie]

They found melted metal - it was never confirmed to be steel. It may have been aluminum which melts at a much lower temperature.

Why wasn't it confirmed to be steel ? These NIST guys must think some of us are pretty dumb. What about the sulfidization that FEMA describes and could not explain ? Are you going to tell me it was drywall and they never thought of that ?

Why was Philip Zelikow in charge of this technical investigation when he specializes in propoganda and the maintainance of public myth ?

How come the NIST investigation "final report" is being revised all the time ?

[stignasty]

They found melted metal - it was never confirmed to be steel. It may have been aluminum which melts at a much lower temperature.

Why wasn't it confirmed to be steel ? These NIST guys must think some of us are pretty dumb. What about the sulfidization that FEMA describes and could not explain ? Are you going to tell me it was drywall and they never thought of that ?

Why was Philip Zelikow in charge of this technical investigation when he specializes in propoganda and the maintainance of public myth ?

How come the NIST investigation "final report" is being revised all the time ?

You're the one with all of the answers.... why don't you tell us.

[PolyNewbie]

stignasty:You're the one with all of the answers.... why don't you tell us.

They were whitewashes done by people closely connected to government and who benefit from government contracts.