The Left & Morality

[ft.niagara]

I think the christian fascists would like to have a go at destroying it, but fortunately they've sort of peaked in popularity and are regressing at the moment.

Harsh words for Christians. Islamists are far more extreme than any Christian I know of. At the rate they reproduce, and they are being imported, it won't be long before you are praying toward Mecca, or else you might be missing a hand, or worse.

[Frankie]

Just to comment on the "homosexuality destroying western society" thing. It's just one factor that will destroy the western society. I mean, it's happened again, and again in the past. Where a nation is blessed beyond compare and is elevated to world power, but they abuse their blessing and whore themselves out to other nations and the "good" things in life, like what feels good and whatnot. And eventually are destroyed. Just look at the Roman Empire, rose to great hieghts but after their moral downfall which included sexual immorality and sexual peversion, they reached rock bottom. Same thing happened to the Jews (or Hebrews)500 years before that. And now it's the United States.

"Corporatism" or similar things, were also a big factor in destroying these nations.

[jbg]

I think the christian fascists would like to have a go at destroying it, but fortunately they've sort of peaked in popularity and are regressing at the moment.

Wow. That's pretty strong language.

[Figleaf]

Huh? Educate themselves in what? The only thing the religious conservatives are interested in obtaining a moral compass from is the Bible.

You are answering your own question there. Educate themselves in anything else in addition to the Bible.

The liberals have educated themselves in the school of what feels good. As long as it feels good both physically and mentally, it must be right. Who knows, maybe they are right (not likely), but they surely did not come to their conclusion from study. ...

Your ignorance makes you look ridiculous. Learn:

By the age of eight [John Stuart Mill] had read Aesop's Fables, Xenophon's Anabasis, and the whole of Herodotus, and was acquainted with Lucian, Diogenes Laërtius, Isocrates and six dialogues of Plato (see his Autobiography). He had also read a great deal of history in English and had been taught arithmetic.

A contemporary record of Mill's studies from eight to thirteen is published in Bain's sketch of his life. It suggests that his autobiography rather understates the amount of work done. At the age of eight he began learning Latin, Euclid, and algebra, and was appointed schoolmaster to the younger children of the family. His main reading was still history, but he went through all the Latin and Greek authors commonly read in the schools and universities at the time. He was not taught to compose either in Latin or in Greek, and he was never an exact scholar; it was for the subject matter that he was required to read, and by the age of ten he could read Plato and Demosthenes with ease. His father's History of India was published in 1818; immediately thereafter, about the age of twelve, John began a thorough study of the scholastic logic, at the same time reading Aristotle's logical treatises in the original language. In the following year he was introduced to political economy and studied Adam Smith and David Ricardo with his father--ultimately completing their classical economic view of factors of production.

This intensive study however had injurious effects on Mill's mental health, and state of mind.

In fact, on the issue of homosexuality, the Greeks used homosexuality, but did not embrass it as a lifestyle. I can not think of any old society which embrassed it.

Embrass!

[jbg]

By the age of eight [John Stuart Mill] had read Aesop's Fables, Xenophon's Anabasis, and the whole of Herodotus, and was acquainted with Lucian, Diogenes Laërtius, Isocrates and six dialogues of Plato (see his Autobiography). He had also read a great deal of history in English and had been taught arithmetic.

*snip*

This intensive study however had injurious effects on Mill's mental health, and state of mind.

John Stuart Mill was instrumental in the capitalist conspiracy to enslave the minds of the proletariat in order that they comply with servitude to the bourgeouis class. He was the opening salvo in the class warfare that will result in the triumph of the working people of the world. When those people unite, war and discord sewed by business classes that thereby benefit will end.

Hugo Chavez Rules!!!

[ft.niagara]

This intensive study however had injurious effects on Mill's mental health, and state of mind.

Perhaps it was God's way of telling him he was screwing up.

[jbg]

This intensive study however had injurious effects on Mill's mental health, and state of mind.

Perhaps it was God's way of telling him he was screwing up.

More likely what we nowadays call Aspergers' Syndrome, a high-functioning part of the autism spectrum.

[Liam]

If 'corporatism' is set to destroy western society, how is it all the developing societies are anxious to get onto the band wagon.

Developing societies are not anxious to join the corporatist bandwagon. They might be anxious to join a more market-driven economic bandwagon, but not a corporatist one. Corporatism is the political condition whereby the commercial interests of corporations become the drivers of national policy. Corporatism is another term for fascism.

[Liam]

No, pedophilia was the big trend in ancient Greece. I believe that Ancient Rome was a very sexual society, apparently even having sex with animals was tolerated.

As for the homosexual lifestyle, I don't see it destroying western society anytime soon. I'd say what will destroy western society will be corporatism, stupidity, and poverty.

Rome was not nearly as sexually perverted as we think. For the majority of its history, the majority of its people held quite conservative beliefs where sex is concerned. Of course, there were individuals (typically among the ruling elite) who were driven by their appetites, but the average man had about as much in common with Caligula as the average person nowadays has with Madonna. The early Christians took great liberties at casting Rome as immoral.

[BubberMiley]

I think the christian fascists would like to have a go at destroying it, but fortunately they've sort of peaked in popularity and are regressing at the moment.

Wow. That's pretty strong language.

What? Saying the christian fascists are regressing in popularity? Perhaps that could lead to letting our guard down. True.

[Figleaf]

By the age of eight [John Stuart Mill] had read Aesop's Fables, Xenophon's Anabasis, and the whole of Herodotus, and was acquainted with Lucian, Diogenes Laërtius, Isocrates and six dialogues of Plato (see his Autobiography). He had also read a great deal of history in English and had been taught arithmetic.

*snip*

This intensive study however had injurious effects on Mill's mental health, and state of mind.

John Stuart Mill was instrumental in the capitalist conspiracy to enslave the minds of the proletariat in order that they comply with servitude to the bourgeouis class. He was the opening salvo in the class warfare that will result in the triumph of the working people of the world. When those people unite, war and discord sewed by business classes that thereby benefit will end.

Hugo Chavez Rules!!!

You write some pretty good Marx-speak, jbg. Who'd have thought?

[Catchme]

Just to comment on the "homosexuality destroying western society" thing. It's just one factor that will destroy the western society. I mean, it's happened again, and again in the past. Where a nation is blessed beyond compare and is elevated to world power, but they abuse their blessing and whore themselves out to other nations and the "good" things in life, like what feels good and whatnot. And eventually are destroyed. Just look at the Roman Empire, rose to great hieghts but after their moral downfall which included sexual immorality and sexual peversion, they reached rock bottom. Same thing happened to the Jews (or Hebrews)500 years before that. And now it's the United States.

"Corporatism" or similar things, were also a big factor in destroying these nations.

Nations are not just blessed beyond compare and elevated to world power in some mysterious way, like by the hand of God, or something. What a simplistic rendition of factors and actions, equalling cause and effect, that is not in anyway accurate. Please feel free to study history, as oppossed to inserting an empty meaningless phrase in place of actual knowledge of actions and events.

It is humanities efforts that cause nations both to rise and fall as well as geological events.

Lives given, lives lost. Intrigue and manipulation, diplomacy, money, work and labour, actions of murder and theft and war, bring about Nations and those actions equally bring about Nations decline. And it is ALL human actions not some divinely put forth degree, that suddenly just happens, to bring about, or end a nation.

A more accuarte but still too simplistic of historical nation decline would be:

It is usually when corrupt power is consolidated at the top, with beliefs of divine supremacy, being above all others, that brings about the final nail in the downfall of a nation. The people at the top start failing to realize Nations are not them, nations are the people who comprise the nation and who allow them to rule/govern.

But prior to that, it is internal revolt, a turning away from what the nation has become, that weakens the nation from within.

It is also, over extended national boundaries, through colonialistic actions that require up keep, that is expensive both in human and monetary capital. Indigenous populations never fully assimulate and look continually for ways to throw off colonial shackles that weaken it externally. Disease, and natural disasters caused by things like; earth quakes and shifts in plate techtonics. Volcanic eruptions leading to climate change causing droughts, flooding and famines.

Plus, many other numerous internal/external things that bring about the decline of a nation and it is usually a very long process, not just a bam your done, or your created kinda thing..There is nothing in this world, and it's history, that proves an actual exhibit of instaneous creation or dissolution, other than land mass and peoples wiped out by natural disaster. And please don't be tring to say natural disasters are the hand of God showing displeasure, believing something like that demeans both God and the one who believes it.

[jbg]

John Stuart Mill was instrumental in the capitalist conspiracy to enslave the minds of the proletariat in order that they comply with servitude to the bourgeouis class. He was the opening salvo in the class warfare that will result in the triumph of the working people of the world. When those people unite, war and discord sewed by business classes that thereby benefit will end.

Hugo Chavez Rules!!!

You write some pretty good Marx-speak, jbg. Who'd have thought?

I've always told everyone I'm leftist.

[Frankie]

Just to comment on the "homosexuality destroying western society" thing. It's just one factor that will destroy the western society. I mean, it's happened again, and again in the past. Where a nation is blessed beyond compare and is elevated to world power, but they abuse their blessing and whore themselves out to other nations and the "good" things in life, like what feels good and whatnot. And eventually are destroyed. Just look at the Roman Empire, rose to great hieghts but after their moral downfall which included sexual immorality and sexual peversion, they reached rock bottom. Same thing happened to the Jews (or Hebrews)500 years before that. And now it's the United States.

"Corporatism" or similar things, were also a big factor in destroying these nations.

Nations are not just blessed beyond compare and elevated to world power in some mysterious way, like by the hand of God, or something. What a simplistic rendition of factors and actions, equalling cause and effect, that is not in anyway accurate. Please feel free to study history, as oppossed to inserting an empty meaningless phrase in place of actual knowledge of actions and events.

It is humanities efforts that cause nations both to rise and fall as well as geological events.

Lives given, lives lost. Intrigue and manipulation, diplomacy, money, work and labour, actions of murder and theft and war, bring about Nations and those actions equally bring about Nations decline. And it is ALL human actions not some divinely put forth degree, that suddenly just happens, to bring about, or end a nation.

A more accuarte but still too simplistic of historical nation decline would be:

It is usually when corrupt power is consolidated at the top, with beliefs of divine supremacy, being above all others, that brings about the final nail in the downfall of a nation. The people at the top start failing to realize Nations are not them, nations are the people who comprise the nation and who allow them to rule/govern.

But prior to that, it is internal revolt, a turning away from what the nation has become, that weakens the nation from within.

It is also, over extended national boundaries, through colonialistic actions that require up keep, that is expensive both in human and monetary capital. Indigenous populations never fully assimulate and look continually for ways to throw off colonial shackles that weaken it externally. Disease, and natural disasters caused by things like; earth quakes and shifts in plate techtonics. Volcanic eruptions leading to climate change causing droughts, flooding and famines.

Plus, many other numerous internal/external things that bring about the decline of a nation and it is usually a very long process, not just a bam your done, or your created kinda thing..There is nothing in this world, and it's history, that proves an actual exhibit of instaneous creation or dissolution, other than land mass and peoples wiped out by natural disaster. And please don't be tring to say natural disasters are the hand of God showing displeasure, believing something like that demeans both God and the one who believes it.

Like I said in my post, the example I gave of sexual immorality is just one factor in a nations downfall. And there have been many other nations that rose to power through other means, but the three I listed did infact rise very quickly and fall very quickly and have very similar history's. And the moral decline does play a huge part. And I also never mentioned anything about God in my post, it of course is human actions that cause them to be destroyed.

[Catchme]

Frankie said: Like I said in my post, the example I gave of sexual immorality is just one factor in a nations downfall. And there have been many other nations that rose to power through other means, but the three I listed did infact rise very quickly and fall very quickly and have very similar history's. And the moral decline does play a huge part. And I also never mentioned anything about God in my post, it of course is human actions that cause them to be destroyed.

Sexual immorlaity and perversions were also occuring while nations rose, and have no bearing upon the rising and falling of nations, other than the fact sometimes maybe the planning of such occurred in the bedrooms of the world.

The Roman Empire did not rise quickly, nor did it fall quickly. Same for the extended "Hebrew" History.

The USA Empire, has not yet fallen, and yes, it has had a relatively short shelf life if it were to fall today, or in the near future. but again nothing to do with sexual immorality and sexual perversion

You said where a nation is blessed beyond compare, God was left unstated, but present nonetheless, as something was dispensing the blessing. Moreover, your framing it in a sexual moral context re-affirms that you are using your perceptions of "morals" that are derived from a personal determination of the Bible.

Again sexial morality, whatever that really is, has nothing to do with either the creation nor decline of an Nation, sex in all its various forms is occurring through out and history.

[jbg]

Sexual immorlaity and perversions were also occuring while nations rose, and have no bearing upon the rising and falling of nations, other than the fact sometimes maybe the planning of such occurred in the bedrooms of the world.

Sexual morality is a ploy to enslave the proletariat for the benefit of the bourgeious. The immiserated workers of the world will unite, throw off the shackles, and bring sexual liberation to the world.

[Frankie]

Frankie said: Like I said in my post, the example I gave of sexual immorality is just one factor in a nations downfall. And there have been many other nations that rose to power through other means, but the three I listed did infact rise very quickly and fall very quickly and have very similar history's. And the moral decline does play a huge part. And I also never mentioned anything about God in my post, it of course is human actions that cause them to be destroyed.

Sexual immorlaity and perversions were also occuring while nations rose, and have no bearing upon the rising and falling of nations, other than the fact sometimes maybe the planning of such occurred in the bedrooms of the world.

The Roman Empire did not rise quickly, nor did it fall quickly. Same for the extended "Hebrew" History.

The USA Empire, has not yet fallen, and yes, it has had a relatively short shelf life if it were to fall today, or in the near future. but again nothing to do with sexual immorality and sexual perversion

You said where a nation is blessed beyond compare, God was left unstated, but present nonetheless, as something was dispensing the blessing. Moreover, your framing it in a sexual moral context re-affirms that you are using your perceptions of "morals" that are derived from a personal determination of the Bible.

Again sexial morality, whatever that really is, has nothing to do with either the creation nor decline of an Nation, sex in all its various forms is occurring through out and history.

They did rise and fall quickly. Read up on your history. The Jews were expanding like any other nation, but within one generation, they became practically the center of the world. And although they were at war quite a bit, it was in one large swoop that they took Isreal and then again Judeah was taken. And I'll say it again, sexual immorality played a huge part, as it was running rampant during the downfall, much much more so than other nations, that even they godless nations were shocked at how they were acting.

And it does have to do with the decline of a nation. It plays a huge part along with other things. People are blind and ignorant if they don't see what immorality does to us! Everywhere you look, there's some sort of sexual inclination. So many shows, billboards, magazines, and easy ways to access porn. And it's impossible to say it doesn't affect you. There is nobody it doesn't affect. And if you still think it doesnt affect you, either your not human, or your a liar. It destroy's marraiges, families, and lives, and that can ruin a country. It's huge. All this stuff about spouses cheating on each other because of their lust for other people and not being satisfied. And being driven towards the life style it offers. And it gets much worse when society embrasses it. Because how will we know it's wrong? And then we will wonder why our nation collapsed.

[Black Dog]

And that of the current Afghani population and government.

Cite?

The majority of placards stated: Canada: Out of Afghanistan.

Q. Idealism aside, besides NATO, who is the most powerful group in Afghanistan?

A. T_____n

Q. Since Afghanistan is not yet functioning under the rule of law, and their Government and security is relatively weak, who would be the most likely to fill the power vacuum left by NATO.

A. T_____n

Black Dog, perhaps you can fill me in on this third way that no one else knows of. I am VERY curious.

How can we protect the Afghani population from Talliban all the while bringing our troops home?

Let's accept your premise that the withdrawl of Canadian troops will result in the Taliban taking over again. Why do assume that's the desired outcome of the protestors and not simply an unintended consequense? Hmmm? Personally, I want Canada out of Afghanistan because I think turning Afghanistan into a stable society with a progressive, democratic government is a virtual impossiblity. That doesn't mean I like the Taliban.

People are blind and ignorant if they don't see what immorality does to us! Everywhere you look, there's some sort of sexual inclination. So many shows, billboards, magazines, and easy ways to access porn. And it's impossible to say it doesn't affect you. There is nobody it doesn't affect. And if you still think it doesnt affect you, either your not human, or your a liar. It destroy's marraiges, families, and lives, and that can ruin a country. It's huge. All this stuff about spouses cheating on each other because of their lust for other people and not being satisfied. And being driven towards the life style it offers. And it gets much worse when society embrasses it. Because how will we know it's wrong? And then we will wonder why our nation collapsed.

Why is sex immoral? And how does sex lead to the downfall of society?

[marcinmoka]

Both the United States and the U.S. military have a generally positive image in Afghanistan, despite the deterioration over the past year. Three out of four Afghans (75%) rate U.S. Military forces positively overall, but the proportion with “very favorable” opinions has dropped 11 points (39% to 28%) from last year. The percentage with “somewhat favorable” opinions has remained steady at 47 percent.

Attitudes toward the United States are even warmer, with 81 percent regarding it favorably, including 30 percent who see it very favorably. Again, the “very favorable” rating has slipped, falling 10 points from 2005 to 2006 (40% to 30%). The somewhat favorable rating, however, has risen 10 points so that the overall percentage favorable to the United States has remained the same.

Respondents were asked also whether they regarded NATO forces in Afghanistan (known as the International Security Assistance Force or ISAF) as effective. Seventy-seven percent call them effective, including 32 percent who rate the ISAF as “very effective.” But the proportion considering the ISAF “very effective” has fallen 14 points (46% to 32%) from last year while that of those rating the forces “somewhat effective” has risen 9 points (36% to 45%). Twenty-two percent think the NATO forces are not effective, up 7 points from 2005.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/art...pnt=290&lb=bras

Why do assume that's the desired outcome of the protestors and not simply an unintended consequense

Because in real life, we must take responsability for our actions. Every action has a reaction. If you are a 4 year old child, then I could let that slip. If you are an adult, then I pity you!

This is also the reason I wrote:

But did they ever STOP and THINK about the consequences of Canada and our NATO allies pulling out?

want Canada out of Afghanistan because I think turning Afghanistan into a stable society with a progressive, democratic government is a virtual impossiblity. That doesn't mean I like the Taliban.

I'm glad Marshall Plan strategists did not have this view of Germany post WWII.

So we shouldn't try? You believe that NO MATTER WHAT, they will eventually support a regime as violent as the Talliban?

[Black Dog]

Because in real life, we must take responsability for our actions. Every action has a reaction. If you are a 4 year old child, then I could let that slip. If you are an adult, then I pity you!

We're talking about foreign policy and national interest here, not stealing cookies.

(I also have to wonder again what we've been doing for the last 5 years if we're still the only thing between Afghanistan and the Taliban.)

I'm glad Marshall Plan strategists did not have this view of Germany post WWII.

So we shouldn't try? You believe that NO MATTER WHAT, they will eventually support a regime as violent as the Talliban?

I believe that no matter what, Afghanistan will be Afghanistan. Central government will be weak at best. Tribal warlords will remain the most powerful segment of society. Women's rights and democracy will, for most if the populace, be distant concepts (and not neccesarily welcome ones). The problem with fighting the Taliban is that the Taliban are Pashtun. The Pashtun are Afghanistan. They have home field advantage. The question is: how much money are you willing tos pend and how many lives are you willing to lay down for an enterprise that has very little probability of meeting it's stated goals?

Another question I have is: are you lobbying for an internevtion in Darfur? A military invasion of Myanmar to overthrow the regime there? If not, why do you support those brutal regimes?

[marcinmoka]

We're talking about foreign policy and national interest here, not stealing cookies.

Thus, re-affirming my case. Are you suggesting that foreign policy decisions are done in vacuum?

In all honesty, I don't see how you were able to tie in cookie theft into this discussion, but I would like an explanation.

(I also have to wonder again what we've been doing for the last 5 years if we're still the only thing between Afghanistan and the Taliban.)

Simple. We took a violent minority who held power in a nation, and relegated them to the caves bordering, where they can no longer excercise their political will with impunity.

Have you been living under a rock? Have you not heard about the 2005 elections? Have you not heard about schools being built?

The problem with fighting the Taliban is that the Taliban are Pashtun. The Pashtun are Afghanistan. They have home field advantage.

Yes. And the Nazi's were Germanic people. Germanic people are Germany. They had a home field advantage. ---- What is your point? So international relations is not "a cookie", but it is a "baseball game". I see.

The question is: how much money are you willing tos pend and how many lives are you willing to lay down for an enterprise that has very little probability of meeting it's stated goals?

Certainly an amount we can afford. Do you ever donate to charity? Not to mention, if it prevents the rise of another Talliban, and lowers the risk of terrorism, we can even call it an "insurance" of sorts.

Another question I have is: are you lobbying for an internevtion in Darfur? A military invasion of Myanmar to overthrow the regime there? If not, why do you support those brutal regimes?

Yes. Widespread crimes against humanity are widespread crimes against humanity.

Do you support them?

I believe that no matter what, Afghanistan will be Afghanistan.

Based on what? Please share this esoteric secret I've asked you to spill earlier on.

I'm skeptical and with good reason. I do not know much about you, but I would be willing to bet you are not a former nor current supreme commander of NATO. How is it that you claim to know, (with apparent certainty) the outcome of Afghanistan even more than the worlds top political, military and economic strategists, both in the NATO nations, as well as the UN, not to mention the Afghani citizenry?

And I would very much appreciate a direct response to my questions. We've managed to preserve decorum in this thread (unlike many other threads) and it's nice to carry on in such a manner.

[Drea]

It plays a huge part along with other things. People are blind and ignorant if they don't see what immorality does to us! Everywhere you look, there's some sort of sexual inclination. So many shows, billboards, magazines, and easy ways to access porn. And it's impossible to say it doesn't affect you. There is nobody it doesn't affect. And if you still think it doesnt affect you, either your not human, or your a liar. It destroy's marraiges, families, and lives, and that can ruin a country. It's huge. All this stuff about spouses cheating on each other because of their lust for other people and not being satisfied. And being driven towards the life style it offers. And it gets much worse when society embrasses it. Because how will we know it's wrong? And then we will wonder why our nation collapsed.

My child cannot access porn without my consent.

My child can and is encouraged to play video games such as Grand Theft Auto and the like.

I would rather he sees two people having sex than two people killing one another.

Porn (not that I like it) does not spell the downfall of society. Corrupt leadership spells the downfall of a society.

[guyser]

My child cannot access porn without my consent.

I would rather he sees two people having sex than two people killing one another.

Drea, not to put too fine a point on it, but he is 13.....and that means he has likely found a way around that. The kids, damn them, are much too internet savvy than the rest of the curmudgeons.

And if he doesnt know now, give him a couple of months. They all teach each other.

As for your second quote, I agree.(Ill bet he does too !)

[Black Dog]

thus, re-affirming my case. Are you suggesting that foreign policy decisions are done in vacuum?

No. But morality is seldom at the top of the list of factors in play.

In all honesty, I don't see how you were able to tie in cookie theft into this discussion, but I would like an explanation

You mentioned four year olds and taking responsibility. Cookie theft seemed like the kind of thing you're talking about.

Simple. We took a violent minority who held power in a nation, and relegated them to the caves bordering, where they can no longer excercise their political will with impunity.

But clearly have done little to blunt their ability to come back when we decide we've had enough. Ho wlong do you want to be there?

Have you been living under a rock? Have you not heard about the 2005 elections? Have you not heard about schools being built?

Ad-fucking-nauseum. According to you, it hasn't changed the situation at all.

Yes. And the Nazi's were Germanic people. Germanic people are Germany. They had a home field advantage. ---- What is your point? So international relations is not "a cookie", but it is a "baseball game". I see.

You clearly don't grasp the weakness of your consistent invocation of post-war Germany (as if the situations are even remotely comparable) or understand the principles of asymetrical warfare. In modern times, no foreign army has ever defeted a local insurgency.

Certainly an amount we can afford. Do you ever donate to charity? Not to mention, if it prevents the rise of another Talliban, and lowers the risk of terrorism, we can even call it an "insurance" of sorts.

It's not a question of affordability as it is throwing good money after bad. After all, every dime we spend trying to beat th ePashtun is a dime not going into painting schools.

Yes. Widespread crimes against humanity are widespread crimes against humanity.

Do you support them?

No. but supporting and believing that it's within our power to change things are two different animals (it may surprise you to know that). It seems many people who support willy-nilly foreign interventions tend to forget that we of the west are not gods.

Based on what? Please share this esoteric secret I've asked you to spill earlier on.

Um...it's no secret. It's called "history."

I'm skeptical and with good reason. I do not know much about you, but I would be willing to bet you are not a former nor current supreme commander of NATO. How is it that you claim to know, (with apparent certainty) the outcome of Afghanistan even more than the worlds top political, military and economic strategists, both in the NATO nations, as well as the UN, not to mention the Afghani citizenry?

Because Afghanistan has been a backasswards shithole for as long as there have been people there. To think that we can overcome the forces of history and remake the culture and society into something approximating our own is hubris.

[Drea]

Black Dog -- I always respect your opinion.

This, in a nutshell, is what I have been told about Afghanistan:

The Russians were there fighting for 10 years against both the Taliban and the government of the day.

The Taliban was fighting the goverment of the day and Russia.

The governemt of the day was fighting the taliban and the Russians.

It was a three-way fight.

Then Russia pulled out and the Taliban took over. Taking away women's rights, slaughtering people, etc.

Now *we are there fighting against the Taliban, but on the side of the gov't, unlike the Russians who simply wanted to take over the country.

Is there something in it for us*? Of course. A more secure middle east means a more secure oil supply.

*us and we refer to NATO allies