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Wasn't sure where to post this topic.. I chose US politics, but it probably should be International politics on it's own.. Anyways, who has read this book? Who has read excerpts? Who has an opinion on this book and/or author.
I have read it.

The book is mistitled because it is far more about Europe than it is about America.

It is also a rehash of his columns.

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I do not find it mistitled at all. The title of 'America Alone' describes how other western civilizations are seemingly self-destructing. Indeed, the most poignant examples are that of Russia which is only nominally apart of 'Europe'.

What I find ironic is that the first civilization on the world that is overly conscious of the environment is dying a slow death from a lack of reproduction which the 'doom sayers' of the '70's were arguing the exact opposite of.

Is it just me or are the 'left' causes 'du jour' almost always wrong and direct energy away from the true problems that are beseting us - longer term. "peace in our times"

For example, there is hardly any newspaper articles about the dramatic decline in birth rates in the 'western world' but a multitude of articles of 'climate change' in which all statistics seemingly ignore this demographic phenomena in their 'computer models' of 'man made greenhouse gases' that are being relaesed into the atmosphere.

Why does the 'left' concentrate on GHG's when there are a multitude of reasons to concentrate on our release of pollutants that cause toxic water, air and earth? Is it because largely, in the 'developed' world these problems, the worst of them, have been dealth with? Do we ignore the raw sewage many many 'older' cities continue to dump into our environment without making headlines?

Do we move onto something else because the literal crap in our oceans and rivers are to a level sufficient enough to go for a dip on a hot day? It doesn't smell as bad as a fresh 'squit' into our collective toilet's so it's all good?

I hope more people start asking themselves these questions and move on from that 'GHG' hysteria that is gripping us now.

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I do not find it mistitled at all. The title of 'America Alone' describes how other western civilizations are seemingly self-destructing. Indeed, the most poignant examples are that of Russia which is only nominally apart of 'Europe'.

Russia was never really part of "western civilization" as it's been known.

Also, this subject has been hashed out before

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America Alone? Steyn pwned!

Steyn writes in a demonic demotic that makes you chuckle even as you retch.

But this cannot hide the gaping holes of logic and fact in his argument. To fulfil his headline predictions, Steyn needs to turn 20 million European Muslims into more than 200 million European Muslims - in just 13 years. Only Fallacci's rats could reproduce so rapidly. Steyn even admits that the history of demographic predictions is hysterically inept, noting that "most twenty-year projections... are laughably speculative, and thus most doomsday scenarios are too" - before offering his own.

...

But number-crunching and mockery are not a sufficient response; it is hard to comment on Steyn's work without noting its raw racism. Throughout his work he uses openly racialized language, albeit with a post-ironic smirk. He talks about "the Yellow Peril" and "gooks". He notes nostalgically that "in the old days, the white man settled the Indian [sic] territory" whereas now the savages are settling us. He describes as "correct" a friend who talks about "beturbanned prophet-monkeys." Of course, Steyn denies this is connected to race, writing, "To agitate about what proportion of the population is "white" is grotesque and inappropriate. But it's not about race; it's about culture."

Yet it quickly becomes clear that for him, culture is merely a thinly veiled homologue for race - and then the mask slips entirely. He writes: "Those who pooh-pooh the the United States' comparatively robust demographics say they reflect nothing more than the fecundity of Hispanic immigration... In fact, white women in America still breed at a greater rate - 1.85 or so - than white women in Europe or Canda." So after saying it is "grotesque" to count out "white" babies, he does just that. "White" is not a culture; it is a skin colour, and there Steyn is, relieved that more babies have his pigmentation than the brown and black varieties.

...

The real problems within European Islam get lost in the endless rhetorical inflation, racism and fictionalizing of Steyn's work. Islamism (distinct from Islam) is indeed a fascistic menace, and it is horrifying that a significant minority of European Muslims adhere to its dictates. Some 37 percent of young British Muslims, for example, view British Jews are "a legitimate target", according to a Populus poll for the Times, and 7 percent believe suicide-murder can be justified within their own country. This gay-hating, women-enslaving far-right fanaticism must be honestly described, and steadily dissolved.

...

But Steyn offers a masterclass in how not to fight against that strange twin-set of the Islamists and the multiculturalists who treat them as the authentic spokespeople for "their" communities.

...

Steyn's wider response to Islamism is to make democratic societies more like the one the Islamists want to build. He sees democratic debate and concern for human rights as unforgivable signs of weakness, mocking those who oppose torture and saying the war in Iraq has been fought "with kid gloves". He has suggested debate about the war should be confined to a war cabinet of five people, and that anybody who disputed their decisions would be "disgusting". "The Muslim critique of the West - that we're decadent vulgar narcissist fornicating sodomites - is not without more than a grain of truth," he writes, saying that the destruction of Europe's feminist and gay rights advances wouldn't especially bother him. He agrees that secular Europe is spiritually barren, decadent, depraved. At times, it's hard to see why he opposes Islamism at all, except because of a Schmittian hatred of the Absolute Enemy and a distaste for Islamist symbols.

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haha

A weak critique if I ever saw one.

He never made a prediction of 200 million Moslems in Europe in 13 years. All predictions I read were around 2050. He did say that the incresing voting clout of this minority group could have far reaching consequences in the near future. It's what happens when a minority votes as a block. Wether they will vote as a block remains to be seen.

Also, alot of his 'demographic predicitons' weren't predictions at all. They are fact as they are already happening and continue to happen. You don't see large Italian and Greek families anymore. That has alerady happened this it is not a prediction.

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A weak critique if I ever saw one.

He never made a prediction of 200 million Moslems in Europe in 13 years. All predictions I read were around 2050. He did say that the incresing voting clout of this minority group could have far reaching consequences in the near future. It's what happens when a minority votes as a block. Wether they will vote as a block remains to be seen

For context, try reading the article instead of just the quotes I pulled. Furthermore, the tenfold increase in Muslim population in Europe is no more realstic if projected to 2050. There's too many assumptions, as Steyn himself admits.

Also, alot of his 'demographic predicitons' weren't predictions at all. They are fact as they are already happening and continue to happen. You don't see large Italian and Greek families anymore. That has alerady happened this it is not a prediction.

Weak comeback, given how many other predictions he makes based on established phenomenon (while ignoring other phenomenon that counter his premise).

Maybe you can tell me why Muslims, for some unknown reason, are expected to be exempt from the trend towards declining birthrates?

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Maybe you can tell me why Muslims, for some unknown reason, are expected to be exempt from the trend towards declining birthrates?

Well obviously you haven't read the book. Nothing like making your mind up ahead of time eh?

haha

They are not immune. They will also start declineing, but after 'westernized' one's have. Population experts say 2050.

Weak comeback, given how many other predictions he makes based on established phenomenon (while ignoring other phenomenon that counter his premise).

such as?

For context, try reading the article instead of just the quotes I pulled

Ironic. Why don't you take your own advice and read the freaking book that the critique is based on?

my goodness.

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Well obviously you haven't read the book. Nothing like making your mind up ahead of time eh?

haha

...

Ironic. Why don't you take your own advice and read the freaking book that the critique is based on?

my goodness.

Uh...as August pointed out, most of the book is re-hashed from his columns. Not much o.g. content there. Certainly the ideas aren't original and are as problematic as they were when they were available for free. Why shell out for a book when I already know what it says? I don't want that dickbag getting any of my money.

such as?

Dude: his whole book is predicated on the established phenomenon of high Muslim birthrates compared to European counterparts. He predicts this will result in a Muslim take over of Europe. But he doesn't seem to realize that birth and immigation rates aren't static.

They are not immune. They will also start declineing, but after 'westernized' one's have. Population experts say 2050.

What "experts?" Mark Steyn? Also, western birth rates are already declining.

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Dude: his whole book is predicated on the established phenomenon of high Muslim birthrates compared to European counterparts. He predicts this will result in a Muslim take over of Europe. But he doesn't seem to realize that birth and immigation rates aren't static.

Side note: neither is human behavior re: changing climate (which all the disaster theorists seem to predicate their pedictions on - like we're all just gonna stand around and watch the ocean swallow up our childeren)...but i digress.

I think another premise in the book revolves around the idea that the world/un/europe etc. is taking an odd turn toward acquiescing and tolerating shit like ahmedinejad, hugo chavez, china's shenanigans, russia...and that America is the only one left with it's head screwed on stright. And alot of that has to do with the changing demographics of those countries in europe: ie. Leaders in europe face the wrath of the tempermental muslim if they support the US in it's war against assholes.

From what I can gather from Mark writing, he points out that while the rest of the world thinks Ameica isn't keeping up with the joneses, he suggests that the joneses are the fucked up ones, and the America and a very small group of allies stand up tall to fight against whats wrong in this world.

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Uh...as August pointed out, most of the book is re-hashed from his columns. Not much o.g. content there. Certainly the ideas aren't original and are as problematic as they were when they were available for free. Why shell out for a book when I already know what it says? I don't want that dickbag getting any of my money.

I read his columns as well and there were about 4 pages of the book that I had seen before. It's not really a rehash of his columns at all. Besides you could read it at the library. That is if you are really interested in debating it intelligently.

Dude: his whole book is predicated on the established phenomenon of high Muslim birthrates compared to European counterparts. He predicts this will result in a Muslim take over of Europe. But he doesn't seem to realize that birth and immigation rates aren't static.

They are not static and no where does he make that assertion. They are what they are RIGHT NOW however.

Also, western birth rates are already declining.

Thanks Einstein.

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I read his columns as well and there were about 4 pages of the book that I had seen before. It's not really a rehash of his columns at all. Besides you could read it at the library. That is if you are really interested in debating it intelligently.

Maybe you can tell me what awesome insights he has that we haven't hit on already. Save me the trip. Or you could try defending the points I've raised instead of just saying "oh you haven't read it, what do you know?"

They are not static and no where does he make that assertion. They are what they are RIGHT NOW however.

Static or near static birth rates are implied by his theory of a Muslim takeover of Europe. He's certainly not saying they are going to go down.

Oh and look: another county heard from: Hazzard County.

I think another premise in the book revolves around the idea that the world/un/europe etc. is taking an odd turn toward acquiescing and tolerating shit like ahmedinejad, hugo chavez, china's shenanigans, russia...and that America is the only one left with it's head screwed on stright. And alot of that has to do with the changing demographics of those countries in europe: ie. Leaders in europe face the wrath of the tempermental muslim if they support the US in it's war against assholes.

That's a really weak argument. European states have always been more inclined to go their own way, usually because of economic self interest. France didn't make deals with Saddam because they were scared of their Algerian Muslims.

From what I can gather from Mark writing, he points out that while the rest of the world thinks Ameica isn't keeping up with the joneses, he suggests that the joneses are the fucked up ones, and the America and a very small group of allies stand up tall to fight against whats wrong in this world.

And what does Steyn think is wrong in the world? Steyn hates liberalism, secularism, femisnism, socialism...all the things that the radical Muslims hate. Slap a turban on him and he'd be indistinguishable from Osama bin Laden.

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That's a really weak argument. European states have always been more inclined to go their own way, usually because of economic self interest. France didn't make deals with Saddam because they were scared of their Algerian Muslims.

Think about the most recent UK terror arrests. I can't remember who it was so you'll have to take my word for it, but in the wake of the arrests a Muslim brit MP stood up and suggested the root cause of such attacks are brit foreign policy which must be changed if any futuire attacks from muslims are to be averted. It was basically a veiled threat. Now obviously it HASNT been successful in changing foreign policy as yet, but given the demographic projections these kinds of statements will only become more common and acceptable.

And think about it. With their vile and violent solution to things, and the mega attention they're getting woldwide, Muslims don't even need to reach majority.

They're like gays: so loud and annoying on the PR stage that there are only a few around that you'd think there are alot more of 'em then there actually are.

From what I can gather from Mark writing, he points out that while the rest of the world thinks Ameica isn't keeping up with the joneses, he suggests that the joneses are the fucked up ones, and the America and a very small group of allies stand up tall to fight against whats wrong in this world.
And what does Steyn think is wrong in the world? Steyn hates liberalism, secularism, femisnism, socialism...all the things that the radical Muslims hate. Slap a turban on him and he'd be indistinguishable from Osama bin Laden.

oh now you're just being silly. but you accidentally made a good point: those who have a set of values and are prepared to defend and even DIE for those values will win the handshake...and as Steyn says, right now that's now the west (ex-America).

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Think about the most recent UK terror arrests. I can't remember who it was so you'll have to take my word for it, but in the wake of the arrests a Muslim brit MP stood up and suggested the root cause of such attacks are brit foreign policy which must be changed if any futuire attacks from muslims are to be averted. It was basically a veiled threat. Now obviously it HASNT been successful in changing foreign policy as yet, but given the demographic projections these kinds of statements will only become more common and acceptable.

If it was a non-Muslim MP saying the same thing (assuming this actually happened), would that be considered a threat?

And think about it. With their vile and violent solution to things, and the mega attention they're getting woldwide, Muslims don't even need to reach majority.

Are we to assume, then, that Muslims are completely homogenous?

oh now you're just being silly. but you accidentally made a good point: those who have a set of values and are prepared to defend and even DIE for those values will win the handshake...and as Steyn says, right now that's now the west (ex-America).

On the contrary. Steyn isn't saying anything different from D'Souza and a host of other right wing culture warriors are saying. They hate western values, but they hate Muslims even more.

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Are we to assume, then, that Muslims are completely homogenous?

Whats gotten into you DOGGY? Yuo're actually being kinda civil today. Keep it up ;)

But AGAIN with this old mantra "not all muslims are terrorists" keep saying it over and over till you're in that lovely mindless lefty trance.

It's true, not all Muslims ARE terrorists. No shit.

But a couple of brave and outspoken muslim women have pointed out repeatedly (mostly to deaf ears) that there IS in fact a problem in Islam with respect to acquiescing to the more..ahem..."active" sects of Islam.

So perhaps with people like this there is hope - but then again there are daily threats against her life.

Maybe she can write a song about it and win a Grammy a la "Dixie Chicks".

Doubt it - rewarding someone who speaks out against Islam isn't on Hollywood's priority list.

Remember when all Movie terrorists were Arabic? Then, after 9-11, none of em are - how hilarious is THAT? And what does that say about our PC world?

Simple: it says we willing ignore facts and problems in the name of political correctness...at our own peril. Shit I'm on a roll....:)

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Whats gotten into you DOGGY? Yuo're actually being kinda civil today. Keep it up

Fuck you dickface. :lol:

But AGAIN with this old mantra "not all muslims are terrorists" keep saying it over and over till you're in that lovely mindless lefty trance.

It's true, not all Muslims ARE terrorists. No shit.

You just contradicted yourself. In the first you deride the phrase "not all Muslims are terrorists" and imply (and not for the first time) that it's false. then you say it's true. Make up your mind.

But a couple of brave and outspoken muslim women have pointed out repeatedly (mostly to deaf ears) that there IS in fact a problem in Islam with respect to acquiescing to the more..ahem..."active" sects of Islam.

So perhaps with people like this there is hope - but then again there are daily threats against her life.

Maybe she can write a song about it and win a Grammy a la "Dixie Chicks".

Doubt it - rewarding someone who speaks out against Islam isn't on Hollywood's priority list.

Blah blah blah. Christ, it's like you're working with a checklist: "Lessee....'Muslims suck'...got it. Already hit the 'climate change' thing. Ah! Still need to work something in about 'Holllywood'. Maybe throw in something about the Dixie Chicks. Yeah, that about covers it."

Aaaaaanyway....you're changing the subject. As teh review I posted stated:

The real problems within European Islam get lost in the endless rhetorical inflation, racism and fictionalizing of Steyn's work.

IOW: it's one thing to talk about the trouble with Islam. Another thing to spout far-fetched fantasy scenarios based on dubious assumptions, as Steyn does. To attack the latter is not to deny the former.

Remember when all Movie terrorists were Arabic? Then, after 9-11, none of em are - how hilarious is THAT? And what does that say about our PC world?

Examples s.v.p.

Simple: it says we willing ignore facts and problems in the name of political correctness...at our own peril. Shit I'm on a roll....

You can say that again...

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Gosh doggy - when u run out of arguments you resort to bathroom humor? I should've expected as much.

Hmmm.

My responses:

You just contradicted yourself. In the first you deride the phrase "not all Muslims are terrorists" and imply (and not for the first time) that it's false. then you say it's true. Make up your mind.
Aaaaaanyway....you're changing the subject. As teh review I posted stated:
The real problems within European Islam get lost in the endless rhetorical inflation, racism and fictionalizing of Steyn's work.

IOW: it's one thing to talk about the trouble with Islam. Another thing to spout far-fetched fantasy scenarios based on dubious assumptions, as Steyn does. To attack the latter is not to deny the former.

Remember when all Movie terrorists were Arabic? Then, after 9-11, none of em are - how hilarious is THAT? And what does that say about our PC world?

Examples s.v.p.

Jerry's reply:

*crickets*
I bet you hang out at the sugar bowl in Edmonton and cross your legs like a girl while you regurgitate lefty drivel over a glass of zuchini juice

Do you realize how fucking stupid you look chiding me for incivility and "bathroom humour" one minute and then resorting to this the very next sentence? Christ, my shitter paper joke (which does a disservice to asswipe: it, unlike you, is useful) at least required some thought, which is mor ethan I can say about your insults, which are nothing more than warmed-over repetitions of the most trite "lefty" cliches that have ever been uttered. Come to think of it, that's an apt description of you're entire MLW ouvre. Stale, dull and lacking even a modicum of self-awareness, wit or originality.

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Dop you realize how fucking stupid you look chiding me for incivility and "bathroom humour" one minute and then resorting to this the very next sentence? Christ, my shitter paper joke (which does a disservice to asswipe: it, unlike you, is useful) at least required some thought, which is mor ethan I can say about your insults, which are nothing more than warmed-over repetitions of the most trite "lefty" cliches that have ever been uttered. Come to think of it, that's an apt description of you're entire MLW ouvre. Stale, dull and lacking even a modicum of self-awareness, wit or originality.

I didn't read all of this but I'm assuming it's a "DOGGY WANTS TO LOOK LIKE HE WENT TO COLLEGE" boring version of "I wish I had wit"

Cheers - I'm off.

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America Alone? Steyn pwned!
Steyn's wider response to Islamism is to make democratic societies more like the one the Islamists want to build. He sees democratic debate and concern for human rights as unforgivable signs of weakness, mocking those who oppose torture and saying the war in Iraq has been fought "with kid gloves". He has suggested debate about the war should be confined to a war cabinet of five people, and that anybody who disputed their decisions would be "disgusting". "The Muslim critique of the West - that we're decadent vulgar narcissist fornicating sodomites - is not without more than a grain of truth," he writes, saying that the destruction of Europe's feminist and gay rights advances wouldn't especially bother him. He agrees that secular Europe is spiritually barren, decadent, depraved. At times, it's hard to see why he opposes Islamism at all, except because of a Schmittian hatred of the Absolute Enemy and a distaste for Islamist symbols.

Pwned!

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  • 4 weeks later...
America Alone? Steyn pwned!

I like this

By far the best way to unpick Islamism is to hold open the institutions of a free society - rather than lock them down in the name of a bogus 'respect' - so moderate Muslims, and especially Muslim women, can rise. No ideology built upon the savage oppression of half of 55 percent of its adherents (let's throw in the gays) can survive in a society where it can be debated and disputed without fear of violence. Islam in the open air will not be fundamentalist for long
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America Alone? Steyn pwned!
Steyn writes in a demonic demotic that makes you chuckle even as you retch.

But this cannot hide the gaping holes of logic and fact in his argument. To fulfil his headline predictions, Steyn needs to turn 20 million European Muslims into more than 200 million European Muslims - in just 13 years. Only Fallacci's rats could reproduce so rapidly. Steyn even admits that the history of demographic predictions is hysterically inept, noting that "most twenty-year projections... are laughably speculative, and thus most doomsday scenarios are too" - before offering his own.

...

But number-crunching and mockery are not a sufficient response; it is hard to comment on Steyn's work without noting its raw racism. Throughout his work he uses openly racialized language, albeit with a post-ironic smirk. He talks about "the Yellow Peril" and "gooks". He notes nostalgically that "in the old days, the white man settled the Indian [sic] territory" whereas now the savages are settling us. He describes as "correct" a friend who talks about "beturbanned prophet-monkeys." Of course, Steyn denies this is connected to race, writing, "To agitate about what proportion of the population is "white" is grotesque and inappropriate. But it's not about race; it's about culture."

Yet it quickly becomes clear that for him, culture is merely a thinly veiled homologue for race - and then the mask slips entirely. He writes: "Those who pooh-pooh the the United States' comparatively robust demographics say they reflect nothing more than the fecundity of Hispanic immigration... In fact, white women in America still breed at a greater rate - 1.85 or so - than white women in Europe or Canda." So after saying it is "grotesque" to count out "white" babies, he does just that. "White" is not a culture; it is a skin colour, and there Steyn is, relieved that more babies have his pigmentation than the brown and black varieties.

...

The real problems within European Islam get lost in the endless rhetorical inflation, racism and fictionalizing of Steyn's work. Islamism (distinct from Islam) is indeed a fascistic menace, and it is horrifying that a significant minority of European Muslims adhere to its dictates. Some 37 percent of young British Muslims, for example, view British Jews are "a legitimate target", according to a Populus poll for the Times, and 7 percent believe suicide-murder can be justified within their own country. This gay-hating, women-enslaving far-right fanaticism must be honestly described, and steadily dissolved.

...

But Steyn offers a masterclass in how not to fight against that strange twin-set of the Islamists and the multiculturalists who treat them as the authentic spokespeople for "their" communities.

...

Steyn's wider response to Islamism is to make democratic societies more like the one the Islamists want to build. He sees democratic debate and concern for human rights as unforgivable signs of weakness, mocking those who oppose torture and saying the war in Iraq has been fought "with kid gloves". He has suggested debate about the war should be confined to a war cabinet of five people, and that anybody who disputed their decisions would be "disgusting". "The Muslim critique of the West - that we're decadent vulgar narcissist fornicating sodomites - is not without more than a grain of truth," he writes, saying that the destruction of Europe's feminist and gay rights advances wouldn't especially bother him. He agrees that secular Europe is spiritually barren, decadent, depraved. At times, it's hard to see why he opposes Islamism at all, except because of a Schmittian hatred of the Absolute Enemy and a distaste for Islamist symbols.

Why am I not surprised that you folks would hold up a misrepresenting strawman rant written on the same blog whose next titles are thus:
Big Oil's vendetta against the electric car

There is a technology that can slash global warming emissions - yet is deliberately being left to rot

The Independent - 05/04/2007

The looming trial verdict that could kill millions

The aid agencies are warning of "the end of affordable medicine in the developing world"

The Independent - 31/03/2007

‘Six Degrees: Our Future on a Hotter Planet’ by Mark Lynas

A book review

The New Statesman - 30/03/2007

The real Cameron is now coming into focus

The right-wingers fretting about Cameron being insufficiently conservative should chill out - but the rest of us should be worried.

Steyn is not alone in his thoughts. Melanie Phillips and Londonistan, Sam Harris and End of Faith, Lee Harris and Civilization and Its Enemies are all high visibility books or the same nature, although Steyn is a better writer than the rest, and Steyn tends toward the demography of the situation. It's not clear why anyone would mock his points, which have nothing to do with such idiocy as "[steyn is] mocking those who oppose torture". No he's not. No he doesn't. This is pure fabrication. The only one "powned" by bafflegab like this are the people who have not read the book but like to google around to make it appear that they have.

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Why am I not surprised that you folks would hold up a misrepresenting strawman rant written on the same blog whose next titles are thus:

Why am I not surprised you're whinging about "strawmen" while failing to address the substance of the article. Instead, you focus on the superficiial. I'm shocked. Really.

Steyn is not alone in his thoughts.

That's the great thing about clown cars. They look small, but man, do they hold a lot of clowns.

Melanie Phillips and Londonistan, Sam Harris and End of Faith, Lee Harris and Civilization and Its Enemies are all high visibility books or the same nature, although Steyn is a better writer than the rest, and Steyn tends toward the demography of the situation.

And Steyn's reading of demography is as accurate as his readings of pig entrails or tea leaves. If I want a treatise on demography, I'll talk to an expert. If I want to read about musical theatre, I'll call the high-school drop out Steyn.

. It's not clear why anyone would mock his points,

Because they are so very ripe for mockery?

The only one "powned" by bafflegab like this are the people who have not read the book but like to google around to make it appear that they have.

Uh...sure, dude.

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