Abolish All Minimum Wage Legislation

[madmax]

And what about the ones that make a hell of a lot of profit and pay minimum wage?

Nothing

As they should. Would you rather work for an employer that is successful or one that is on the brink of going bankrupt?

Under the conditions you proposed. No thanks.

There debate with the minimum wage is that it isn't market based, but needs based.

You are just picking winners and losers.

There is room to haggle over that thought.

Edit: Messed the quotations up a bit. Sure you will figure it out.

[sideshow]

Desperate people will work for less than minimum wage. But desperate people will also sell their bodies to fat, hairy business men for 20 bucks on lunch hour, and we don't think that is acceptable either.

I can't believe anyone begrudges that someone makes minimum (what 7-8 bucks an hour?) wage. What a bunch of whiners.

[Canadian Blue]

The reason why we should get rid of the minimum wage is because some people are willing to work for less.

So then those people can be poorer than they already are.

QUOTE(Canadian Blue @ Feb 28 2007, 04:15 PM)

isn't that just a sure fireway for most people to go back into poverty.

Why would it??

Because large corporation's can then simply lower wages down, and price consumer goods even lower. Thus wiping out competition while at the same time being the largest consumer good's store in the area.

What right do you have to force that on everybody???

Society has that right, because we'd rather take care of the poor before rallying around a guy that want's to buy a new BMW at the expense of the disadvantaged.

Easy.

Large sweatshop corporations would never come to Canada. They would go to some other part of the world.

With no minimum wage, and probably at the same token fewer rights for workers, what would stop companies from creating sweatshops.

Your worries are unfounded.

No because we have seen what happen's with little regulation.

[Posit]

Of course the goal of right wing corporations are to reduce all their workers to poverty while the management lavish in unlimited wealth.

Business expense get paid BEFORE the owner reaps a profit. They are a necessary part of operating a business and they are a necessary part of earning profits. Expenses are not taken from profits. There can be NO profit unless the expenses are first paid. That's business reality.

Would I pay $100 per hour minimum wage. I would have to if I wanted to keep my business viable. But I would also, like similar business be billing them out at $200 per hour (at least) to ensure that all additional expenses are covered as well. That is what the market must bear and will bear if they have no choice. Lower minimum wages do not mean more profit either, nor do they improve marketability of the company products. In fact taking out of the system such as reduce wages of the line employees usually means lower quality of products and services.

[seabee]

Drop all minimum wage laws, and you will soon find that a lot of people realize that they would be better off on welfare than having a job.

What is the next step? abolishing welfare?

Make war on poverty; kill the poor?

[blueblood]

Drop all minimum wage laws, and you will soon find that a lot of people realize that they would be better off on welfare than having a job.

What is the next step? abolishing welfare?

Make war on poverty; kill the poor?

Then inflation wouldn't go up like crazy, there's always going to be poor people whether they work for 7 bucks an hour or 10 bucks an hour as far as minimum wage goes, the market will readjust to put back the balance. The only problem is that 10 bucks won't mean didly squat anymore. It actually hurts us in the end as our dollar won't be able to buy us things anymore. The only way raising the minimum wage would help out is if people quit spending money too much.

[August1991]

Drop all minimum wage laws, and you will soon find that a lot of people realize that they would be better off on welfare than having a job.

What is the next step? abolishing welfare?

Make war on poverty; kill the poor?

There is so much nonsense on this thread.

My simple point in the OP was to state that if the purpose is to help people with low incomes, a minimum wage is not the way to do it.

If the government passed a law making it illegal to buy or sell a car for less than $30,000, would this result in everyone getting to drive a good car?

The same bad logic motivates minimum wage laws. These laws put the burden of helping the working poor on to the wrong shoulders and ultimately penalize the poor themselves.

The upcoming federal budget may introduce an earned income tax credit. Quebec has had for many years a working income supplement. I would really like to see all payroll deductions eliminated for anyone earning less than, say, $15,000/year. It should be easy and profitable for someone to work. At present, because of such laws as the minimum wage, it's not.

[Renegade]

At present, across Canada, State legislation makes it illegal to pay anyone less than around $7 to $8 per hour. Provincial minimum wage laws affect far more people than federal law.

Since governments believe that legislating a minimium wage is a way to eliminate poverty, perhaps they should enact legislation that every business generates an ROI of at least 10%. That way they can eliminate business bankrupicies and ensure each business is profitable.

[White Doors]

There is so much nonsense on this thread.

Exactly why it will never happen. Politics in Canada is mired in juvenile rhetoric such as this.

[M.Dancer]

What's wrong with having a minimum wage?

Not all employers make a lot of profit. That is the problem.

And what about the ones that make a hell of a lot of profit and pay minimum wage?

Like just about every major restaurant chain? Not to mention that hotels who have successfully fought off unionization are notorious for preying on non english speaking immigrants and paying them (in effect ) less than nminimum wage. They do this by charging the employees for things like lunch and drycleaning.

[Renegade]

...you will soon find that a lot of people realize that they would be better off on welfare than having a job.

Since welfare is the bottom line below which it is not economic to work, why bother with a minimium wage at all? If no one will accept a job which pays less than what they would get on welfare, a defacto minimum wage is established without having to impose one.

[Renegade]

Like just about every major restaurant chain? Not to mention that hotels who have successfully fought off unionization are notorious for preying on non english speaking immigrants and paying them (in effect ) less than nminimum wage. They do this by charging the employees for things like lunch and drycleaning.

Why is profit even relevant? An employer should be free to offer a wage for which he thinks the labour is worth regardless of whether that employer is profitable or not.

Should we grant exemptions to unprofitable companies so that they can pay rates under minimium wage?

[M.Dancer]

Like just about every major restaurant chain? Not to mention that hotels who have successfully fought off unionization are notorious for preying on non english speaking immigrants and paying them (in effect ) less than nminimum wage. They do this by charging the employees for things like lunch and drycleaning.

Why is profit even relevant? An employer should be free to offer a wage for which he thinks the labour is worth regardless of whether that employer is profitable or not.

Should we grant exemptions to unprofitable companies so that they can pay rates under minimium wage?

So small communities, one industry towns, the employer should be free to pay starvation wages.....the town, the society de damned?

...Welcome to the 19th century

[M.Dancer]

...you will soon find that a lot of people realize that they would be better off on welfare than having a job.

Since welfare is the bottom line below which it is not economic to work, why bother with a minimium wage at all? If no one will accept a job which pays less than what they would get on welfare, a defacto minimum wage is established without having to impose one.

It is very naive to think no one will accept a job.....and that market forces will correct in everycase...there will always be someone willing to work for less.

[Renegade]

...there will always be someone willing to work for less.

Explain why.

[Renegade]

So small communities, one industry towns, the employer should be free to pay starvation wages.....the town, the society de damned?

Yes they should even be free to offer the job which pays nothing if they so choose.

I may take such a job because I receive intangible non-monetary benefits (such as prestege, or job enjoyment) which to me are enough compensation.

In an environment in which there is limited employment prospects, the prospective employee is free to move to areas where he has a better market for his labour.

...Welcome to the 19th century

Thanks. I welcome you to the 21st.

[sideshow]

...there will always be someone willing to work for less.

Explain why.

the natural selection need for survival. anything is better than nothing. which is why people would would work for scraps of wood and garbage peelings to eat rather than freeze or starve to death.

i believe someone else said.........welcome to the 19th century.....

[geoffrey]

the natural selection need for survival. anything is better than nothing. which is why people would would work for scraps of wood and garbage peelings to eat rather than freeze or starve to death.

Right, and minimum wage legislation prevents someone from doing so.

[Charles Anthony]

the natural selection need for survival. anything is better than nothing.

Fortunately for the people who are not so deluded by non-existent economics, "nothing" is not the only choice.

which is why people would would work for scraps of wood and garbage peelings to eat rather than freeze or starve to death.

Can your delusional economic theory explain why people exist in Canada earning more than minimum wage?!?!?!?

i believe someone else said.........welcome to the 19th century.....

Welcome to Canada. Leave your crockonomics at the door.

[sideshow]

the natural selection need for survival. anything is better than nothing.

Fortunately for the people who are not so deluded by non-existent economics, "nothing" is not the only choice.

which is why people would would work for scraps of wood and garbage peelings to eat rather than freeze or starve to death.

Can your delusional economic theory explain why people exist in Canada earning more than minimum wage?!?!?!?

i believe someone else said.........welcome to the 19th century.....

Welcome to Canada. Leave your crockonomics at the door.

Well obviously you've never seen the "dark side" of Canada (or the world). It must be nice to be so blessed and sheltered.

It is much different to be raised in an upper middle class home and read about the "lower" class than to actually see it. Go slumming a bit my friend. If you were to see how many many people live in this country at a first hand look, you would be surprised. Unless you see it, it really cant even be explained. And it would make you sick to your stomach.

And in case I get "labelled" here, I will just say this. I'm in a highly taxed income bracket, i vote NDP (both for the candidate who I respect as a person, and for the party who I believe has a strong social conscience), I like most of the conservatives economic policies, some of their other policies, and think overall that they are doing a pretty good job and should be given a chance, i do like some liberal policies and dont feel that they did that bad of a job (no worse than the previous or current conservatives anyways), and am pro union, pro government regulation, but I am conservative in many aspects of life.

[sideshow]

the natural selection need for survival. anything is better than nothing. which is why people would would work for scraps of wood and garbage peelings to eat rather than freeze or starve to death.

Right, and minimum wage legislation prevents someone from doing so.

Agreed. And that is why minimum wage legislation is necessary. Because in the absence of it, we would see employers offer less, people work for less, and the poor would become more poor, and the employers would simply use the "savings" to pad their pockets further.

[blueblood]

the natural selection need for survival. anything is better than nothing. which is why people would would work for scraps of wood and garbage peelings to eat rather than freeze or starve to death.

Right, and minimum wage legislation prevents someone from doing so.

Agreed. And that is why minimum wage legislation is necessary. Because in the absence of it, we would see employers offer less, people work for less, and the poor would become more poor, and the employers would simply use the "savings" to pad their pockets further.

Ireland in the early 90's had one of the lowest wages in the developed world, that and really low corporate tax rates. These encouraged foreign investment. Now they are richer than us and their country is a better place to live. They now have to worry about competition from Eastern European countries because Irish wages are now too high.

wiki

[Charles Anthony]

Well obviously you've never seen the "dark side" of Canada (or the world). It must be nice to be so blessed and sheltered.

Well, I must say, you have got me.

It is much different to be raised in an upper middle class home and read about the "lower" class than to actually see it. Go slumming a bit my friend.

Please, whether you grew up in a shoe box or I grew up in the hall-way makes ZERO difference in the determination of economic policy.

If you were to see how many many people live in this country at a first hand look, you would be surprised. Unless you see it, it really cant even be explained. And it would make you sick to your stomach.

What makes me more sick is when people impose economic policy when they know ZERO economics.

And in case I get "labelled" here, I will just say this. I'm in a highly

-- irrelevent.

You are making suggestions for imposing economic policy and you can not defend them.

And that is why minimum wage legislation is necessary. Because in the absence of it, we would see employers offer less, people work for less, and the poor would become more poor, and the employers would simply use the "savings" to pad their pockets further.

Can you provide ONE SINGLE reference to a school of economic thought (raging socialist and Marxist theorists included) that support your belief???

[madmax]

If I could rub a lamp, those prisons would be sweat shop and the wage prisoners would get is repaying their debt to society.

Ah yes, Conrad Black pays his debt.

[madmax]

Then inflation wouldn't go up like crazy,there's always going to be poor people whether they work for 7 bucks an hour or 10 bucks an hour as far as minimum wage goes, the market will readjust to put back the balance. The only problem is that 10 bucks won't mean didly squat anymore. It actually hurts us in the end as our dollar won't be able to buy us things anymore. The only way raising the minimum wage would help out is if people quit spending money too much.

It is very unlikely that an increase in the minimum wage will spark inflation. It is more likely as other suggest that certain small businesses may cut back on employment. You are correct in suggesting the market would adjust. 90 years of history has proven just that fact. Since the minimum wage is playing catchup to the requirements to work for a living wage, it is understandable that the level it is set at will always been seen as floor.

The statement that poor people are spending to much money is limited by the fact that poor people can't spend anymore money then they have. Minimum wage people aren't the ones mortgaged to the hilt, and with 2 new lease vehicles and living day to day eating and paying off the interest on these items. Minimum wage people are spending their earnings on food, rent and a bus ticket and probably trying to save any extra nickels for education.

With regards to your statements of inflation, inflation is always present, but hasn't been a major detrimental factor since the oil crises of the 70s and early 80s. Rapidly rising Energy, Hydro, Gas, Oil etc are major factors affecting inflation. Something far more deadly could occur with the removal of the minimum wage and a decrease in spending as you suggest. Deflation. Something not seen since the dirty thirties.