Military Spending

[Saturn]

While I am no Rick Hillier fan, he is doing his job in criticizing military spending. I am reminded of the "This is Unfair" when the Liberals cry foul.

It is true that the Liberal governments previous didn't support the military with any enthusiasm. Martin began the process for rebuilding and should be credited.

Hillier has to be careful though. If the military openly sides with the Tories politically as the military did with Republicans in the U.S., it eventually leads to a disconnect with the public. As long as he remains an advocate of the military, he will be okay. If he endorses the Tories next election even in a vague way, he will have crossed the line.

Hillier has far overstepped his duties and for a long time too. But this has gone unnoticed by most until now. His resignation is long overdue.

[Saturn]

What does your personal opinion of those conflicts have to do with the competence of those who were there. They were political decisions to go there, not military.

So you would prefer military commanders who are inexperienced so they can continue to repeat the same mistakes over and over until they learn their jobs.

The difference between those conflicts and the current one is that the decision to go there was made by politicians, while the current one is very much driven by the military behind the scenes. It is Hillier's job to ensure that the military performs its duties well, not to decide what those duties should be.

[Army Guy]

Saturn:

Hillier has far overstepped his duties and for a long time too. But this has gone unnoticed by most until now. His resignation is long overdue.

I'd be curious to know how he has over stepped his duties and if by chance he has ,what has he done that requires him to resign... or do we reserve our patients for elected officals only, and they are the only ones above reproach.

[White Doors]

What does your personal opinion of those conflicts have to do with the competence of those who were there. They were political decisions to go there, not military.

So you would prefer military commanders who are inexperienced so they can continue to repeat the same mistakes over and over until they learn their jobs.

The difference between those conflicts and the current one is that the decision to go there was made by politicians, while the current one is very much driven by the military behind the scenes. It is Hillier's job to ensure that the military performs its duties well, not to decide what those duties should be.

Name me ONE conflict that Canada has been in that was not determine by 'politicians'??

None. that's how many. The only difference this time is that you are whining about this one for partisan points.

funny how that works.

[madmax]

Madmax said

Hillier has a vision of the military and where he wants it to be. To heck with anyone whom disagrees with him. O'Conner included.

Hillier came to see us doing our pre-deployment training. He spoke to everyone, then took us officers aside and had some words. There is not doubt in my mind he is the best General I have ever met in 18 years of service. He is a soldier, not a politician, that makes peole nervous. Canadians in the know are more used to seeing a Baril, or De Chastiline as the CDS, a quiet "lap-dog". Hillier is a combat leader, more in line with the CDS generals that ran the military in the 1960's & '70's, fromer WW2 officers.

You cannot believe everything you read in the press. The media is mostly speculation, not fact. Nobody here, or in the media is present at high level defence meetings, so it is speculation.

O'Conner & Hillier are BOTH combat officers, from the Canadian Armoured Corps. I have met both of these men, had dinner with O'Conner. I have full faith in their leadership. I would follow Hillier to hell & back. You do not see military members complaining about them...

As for the so called rift, media speculation. There is not doubt they have differences, they're human remember. Our defence policy has always been Canada First, this is nothing new. You start defending Canada on the beaches of Europe and the Middle East, ot the beaches of Nova Scotia........

I was trying to read the other post with the quotes are messed up. So I thought I would clean it up, so I could read what Weaponer had to say..

My Apologies if this is not a proper ettiquette. I will delete it if there is a problem

[madmax]

Catchme,

There is nobody in Canada or the Canadian Forces that wants us to be militaristic. Your 1000% right, we are not a warlike people, I could not agree more. However, that does not mean that other folks in this world feel the same way. We live in a very dangerous world, we always have, what you see on TV today is nothing new. I don't want to be left to the mercy of the world. We as Canadians have too much to loose.

All General Hillier, and the rest of us in the military are saying is lets DO IT RIGHT!!! If you, the gov't, are going to send us to Afghanistan, DO IT RIGHT. We need the equip to do it right. Our generals know what needs to be done, lets do it. We need to defend our country, our territory our interests. We need an army, airforce and navy that can conduct COMBAT to defend our country if every neccesary, that does not mean we WANT to use COMBAT.

We are in a war in Afghanistan, something you and millions of other Canadians have never seen our nation do in your life time. I understand it bothers people, if it did not, that would concern me. Canadians have a tradition of NOT taking defence matters seriously, resulting on many occassions in Canadian's being caugh in a very bad situation.

If peolpe don't like the war, blame the politicians, they sent us there, not me, armyguy or Hillier. We are simpley doing our job.

If a few generals had spoken up in years past, we may have avoided disasters like Flanders Fields, Passchandaele, Hong Kong and Dieppe.

Hillier is doing his job very well, Canadians are just not used to seeing this kind of General. The officers who served in the first Gulf War, Bosnia, Kosovo are all becoming the senior officers who run todays military. They have real world experience, not the "office" experience of the generation they are replacing.

I did the same for this one as well. I just can't follow the arguments when the quote structures get messed up. And sometimes they do. My apologies again if this offends anyone.

[Army Guy]

Saturn:

The difference between those conflicts and the current one is that the decision to go there was made by politicians, while the current one is very much driven by the military behind the scenes. It is Hillier's job to ensure that the military performs its duties well, not to decide what those duties should be.

Driven by the military, thats False with a capital F, the miltary advised Mr. Chretien not to go...why because of cuts made by the liberals to DND where to the bone. Nice try ...If your going to place blame lets atleast get the facts straight.

How we got there is another question. We got there because former Prime Minister Jean Chretien overruled the best professional advice of our military, which strongly advised against intervention in Afghanistan because of the threat and the inability of the military to sustain a long-term commitment without a huge increase of resources -- costs thus far are estimated at $10 billion. So, alas, we are there. But why?

Hamilton spector

[madmax]

I'd be curious to know how he has over stepped his duties and if by chance he has ,what has he done that requires him to resign... or do we reserve our patients for elected officals only, and they are the only ones above reproach.

Now that would be scarey to believe.

[madmax]

Name me ONE conflict that Canada has been in that was not determine by 'politicians'??

None. that's how many. The only difference this time is that you are whining about this one for partisan points.funny how that works.

Regardless of the conflicts, the financial aspect of the underfunded military and it being bluntly pointed out, has ruffled the feathers of many.

[Wilber]

The difference between those conflicts and the current one is that the decision to go there was made by politicians, while the current one is very much driven by the military behind the scenes. It is Hillier's job to ensure that the military performs its duties well, not to decide what those duties should be.

The first sentence is horse pucky. Evidence please. The second is true.

[Army Guy]

Catch me:

Again who do we need defending from?

Do you really have to ask that question, i mean think about it for a minute., but let me ask you this why do we have smoke detectors in our home, why do people buy fire extinguishers, is it because our homes are faulty, or are they there to protect us "just in Case"

I mean how many fires does the average home have, in some provinces it's law to have this equipment...

Canadians are not demanding we purchase the sixth fleet, or expand our military into the millions, but they want that insurance that we as a nation can atleast defend ourselfs both here and abroad, look after ourselfs incase god forbid victory slides out to sea,or another ICE storm. or atleast have some influence on the world stage, like assisting other nations as we have in the past....

So to answer your question, whom ever may want to threaten Canada or her interests.

I'm curious how many out there really think that we as a nation don't need a military , and why is that ?

[madmax]

I'm curious how many out there really think that we as a nation don't need a military , and why is that ?

I always "felt" that PET didn't think we needed a military. While I would like a robust military, I don't want this military co-opted for missions as if we are some satellite state. Cooperation and mutual exchanges, I have no problem with. Just to remind certain players, that this is our military, and we are strengthening it for our committments and interests. I have no problem with sitting out of actions such as Vietnam or Iraq. While the CPC and Harper himself campaigned on our need to be there, and we would been there with his leadership, that is ok, As long as our government is making the decision, be it a good one or a bad one.

There are people out there whom believe we don't need a military. I am not one of those people. Nor should we bow to the foreign pressures to engage in futile wars or poor anti-terrorism tactics.

[Spike22]

Wow what an excellent debate this thread has created. Hillier has done a good job (for an army guy haha- I am air force). He has instilled pride in the military and has stuck his ass out - sometimes to his detriment. The political bosses (lib or con) seem to either be afraid to get rid of him or there is no one else they could get to do the job 'properly'. His speeches lately I have to agree could be construed as biased towards one party, the conservatives. It may be justly warranted as they see the need for a strong military and the structural re-organization that is presently underway with DND. Some of these new inititatives were desperately needed: command restructuring and puchase of trucks, ships and aircraft. The debate will never end whether Canada has a big enough military, if the funding is adequate etc etc. I can tell you we definitely need new equipment and recapitalization $$$. Our personnel work miracles everyday to operate and maintain what amount to antiques in less than desireable buildings. I really don't care who's to blame liberals or conservative's, what is important that the country needs a military force and we need the tools to do the job mandated by the government, whatever colour it happens to be.

[Army Guy]

I agree with spike, to a certain extent, it would take a alot better liberal than they are offering now to change my vote.

I also agree with Max, a Canadian military for Canadian issues, although i don't see Afgan as a US adventure, but as a world issue that needs to be dealt with now, before it becomes a major issue in the future..

[jbg]

I detect a certain element of hypocrisy here. I'm sure that CBC has no more business advocating a partisan position than Hillyer does, yet I see a lot of teeth-nashing about Hillyer, none about the CBC. Explain.

[Remiel]

Come on, JBG. If you haven't seen a lot of teeth gnashing about the CBC, you can't have been paying very close attention to these boards. Most threads involving the CBC here have a LOT of teeth gnashing.