Afghan mission "doomed to fail"

[scribblet]

Canada has worked hard with loss of life to promote human rights and democracy in Afghanistan. Canada is also leading advocate of the "responsibility to protect" doctrine, which asserts that wealthy nations have a duty to prevent humanrights abuses in other countries.

If we abandon Afghanistan, one the world's poorest countries what kind of a message would that send, and what would it say about future missions. I think it would say that we place no value on human rights and that we are too willing to abandon the neediest when the going gets tough. We have to help Afghanstan from slipping backwards into anarchy.

[mikedavid00]

If we abandon Afghanistan, one the world's poorest countries what kind of a message would that send

That we no longer want these people coming to Canada and that we will focus on protecting our own borders.

[madmax]

Canada has worked hard with loss of life to promote human rights and democracy in Afghanistan. Canada is also leading advocate of the "responsibility to protect" doctrine, which asserts that wealthy nations have a duty to prevent humanrights abuses in other countries.

If we abandon Afghanistan, one the world's poorest countries what kind of a message would that send, and what would it say about future missions. I think it would say that we place no value on human rights and that we are too willing to abandon the neediest when the going gets tough. We have to help Afghanstan from slipping backwards into anarchy.

Very well said. Those are worthy goals for our country.

[Army Guy]

scriblett:

Well said, But i'd also like to add, the consquences of not helping or pulling out to earlier far outway those if we stayed.

[Catchme]

Could it be, Army Guy, that Canadian forces are consciously (or unconsciously) playing down the importance of Islam in Afghanistan in order to justify Canadians risking their lives in this dangerous mission? I wonder how much instruction Canadian forces receive in details of the Afghan constitution which states that the rules of Islam over-ride any human rights in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.

Most assuredly, they are playing it down, as we can see with the advent of the adherence to Islam Law that was re-introduced after the election of a democratic government. This was the same law the Taliban used when they were in control of the country. But we Canadians, who financing this useless murdering endeavour, are NOT supposed to look at that either, we are just supposed to ignore it, and move along as not being worthy of consideration.

They know full well, that the rules of Islam over-ride any human rights, as they know full well it became entrenched yet again with the re-enactment of old Taliban law.

So why are we there again? Oh right, we are funding the private army of oil and drug cartells!

[Canadian Blue]

Most assuredly, they are playing it down, as we can see with the advent of the adherence to Islam Law that was re-introduced after the election of a democratic government. This was the same law the Taliban used when they were in control of the country. But we Canadians, who financing this useless murdering endeavour, are NOT supposed to look at that either, we are just supposed to ignore it, and move along as not being worthy of consideration.

They know full well, that the rules of Islam over-ride any human rights, as they know full well it became entrenched yet again with the re-enactment of old Taliban law.

So why are we there again? Oh right, we are funding the private army of oil and drug cartells!

So your saying that the new government is the Taliban, despite all of the strides made by women in the country, and we are only in Afghanistan because of oil and drug cartel's.

[August1991]

If we abandon Afghanistan, one the world's poorest countries what kind of a message would that send, and what would it say about future missions. I think it would say that we place no value on human rights and that we are too willing to abandon the neediest when the going gets tough. We have to help Afghanstan from slipping backwards into anarchy.

I disagree Scriblett. There are many people living in the world in dire poverty with little respect for their simple human dignity.

Canada cannot change the living conditions of all these people. Hence, we turn a blind eye to many and ignore them. It may sound heartless but we have no choice. We cannot solve all of the world's problems and I doubt if we could even solve a few.

We are involved in Afghanistan because the Taliban regime, by offering support to Al Qaeda, represented (and still represents) a threat to us.

[Army Guy]

Catchme:

Most assuredly, they are playing it down, as we can see with the advent of the adherence to Islam Law that was re-introduced after the election of a democratic government. This was the same law the Taliban used when they were in control of the country. But we Canadians, who financing this useless murdering endeavour, are NOT supposed to look at that either, we are just supposed to ignore it, and move along as not being worthy of consideration.

Perhaps you should get your facts straight, Islamic law was not re introduced after the election in fact islamic law never left AFGAN. What has changed is the interputation of that law. Comparing the present Afgan government to the Taliban government is apple and oranges. You are making a problem where there is none.

"We Canadians who are finanicing this usless murdering endevour", Again did you read this in one of your peacenik web sites, Canada's contributions are strictly control with measures put in place to ensure not just anyone gets it, hence the problem with getting aid monies down to where they need it, and whats left over over does not add up to any signifcant finanicing of a murderous endevour. As to your tax dollars going towards our military murderous adventure, "send me your address" and i will gladly send you back the portion of your income taxes out of my own pocket that were spent on our mission here in Afgan.

If it would stop your false accusations, your slandering, and your treading on the accomplishments of thousands of young Canadian soldiers, it would be worth it. And i have not even mentioned the extra cash i'd throw in just to hear you stop whinning ,bitching about every little negative thing that you find, with total disregard for anything good that has been accomplished. You sir or mam deserve a slap across the back of the head, former military member my ass.

So why are we there again? Oh right, we are funding the private army of oil and drug cartells!

Sorry i was distracted oil rig just drove by, what was it you were trying to say, OH yes a rpivate army for the oil and drug cartels.... Do you have any proof, i mean real proof i thought we had already been over this one, as Dr Phil says that dog will not hunt...

[Canadian Blue]

Aye

[Catchme]

Here is some thought on what I said and some very good links are attached to the web site linked to, if you would like to no more about how your tax dollars are funding the military for oil comapny interests.

Perhaps the rich should be the ones to fund wars, with their money and their children's lives? We may have less of them.

Unlike Islamo-fascism, Energo-fascism will, in time, affect nearly every person on the planet. Either we will be compelled to participate in or finance foreign wars to secure vital supplies of energy, such as the current conflict in Iraq; or we will be at the mercy of those who control the energy spigot, like the customers of the Russian energy juggernaut Gazprom in Ukraine, Belarus, and Georgia; or sooner or later we may find ourselves under constant state surveillance, lest we consume more than our allotted share of fuel or engage in illicit energy transactions. This is not simply some future dystopian nightmare, but a potentially all-encompassing reality whose basic features, largely unnoticed, are developing today.

These include:

The transformation of the U.S. military into a global oil protection service whose primary mission is to defend America's overseas sources of oil and natural gas, while patrolling the world's major pipelines and supply routes.

The transformation of Russia into an energy superpower with control over Eurasia's largest supplies of oil and natural gas and the resolve to convert these assets into ever increasing political influence over neighboring states.

A ruthless scramble among the great powers for the remaining oil, natural gas, and uranium reserves of Africa, Latin America, the Middle East, and Asia, accompanied by recurring military interventions, the constant installation and replacement of client regimes, systemic corruption and repression, and the continued impoverishment of the great majority of those who have the misfortune to inhabit such energy-rich regions.

Increased state intrusion into, and surveillance of, public and private life as reliance on nuclear power grows, bringing with it an increased threat of sabotage, accident, and the diversion of fissionable materials into the hands of illicit nuclear proliferators.

Together, these and related phenomena constitute the basic characteristics of an emerging global Energo-fascism. Disparate as they may seem, they all share a common feature: increasing state involvement in the procurement, transportation, and allocation of energy supplies, accompanied by a greater inclination to employ force against those who resist the state's priorities in these areas. As in classical twentieth century fascism, the state will assume ever greater control over all aspects of public and private life in pursuit of what is said to be an essential national interest: the acquisition of sufficient energy to keep the economy functioning and public services (including the military) running.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=157241

Anthor interesting discussion is starting here about this that may be worth watching unfold which is where the above and below information is links come from, in case you have no interest going elsewhere.

A book out by Henry Giroux, a former US academic that now resides in Canada and teaches at McMaster University calls the new climate of authoritarianism in the USA "proto-fascism" and IMV it is coming soon to Canada if minority would have their way he denotes indicators of incidious fascism as:

- the cult of traditionalism and a reactionary modernism

- the ongoing corporatization of civil society and the diminishing of public space

- a culture of fear and a rampant, chauvinistic patriotism

- the attempt to control the mass media through government regulation, consolidated corporate ownership, or sympathetic media moguls and spokespeople

- the rise of Newspeak, designed to produce an impoverished vocabulary and elementary syntax, whose consequence is to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning

- collapse of the separation of church and state

- militarization of public space and of the social order

- the rise of neo-liberalism as the defining ideology of the current historical moment

In Against the New Authoritarianism, Giroux divests Bush and America’s thinly disguised rhetoric of being the world’s defender of freedom and democracy to reveal the terrifying specter of proto-fascism. He follows Adorno’s lead in suggesting that education, while being one of the many sites that disseminates the discourses of imperialism, nationalism, militarism, and violence, has the potential—and indeed, it is the solution—to identify, challenge, and destroy these unethical ideologies that threaten human freedom, peace, and democracy in America and around the world.

Book

[Army Guy]

Catchme:

Here is some thought on what I said and some very good links are attached to the web site linked to, if you would like to no more about how your tax dollars are funding the military for oil comapny interests.

No below it what you said, and your whole last post explains nothing ,with the exexception of the last sentence of your entire rant.

Most assuredly, they are playing it down, as we can see with the advent of the adherence to Islam Law that was re-introduced after the election of a democratic government. This was the same law the Taliban used when they were in control of the country.

You did not even address this comment, that you so eagerly agreed with

But we Canadians, who financing this useless murdering endeavour, are NOT supposed to look at that either, we are just supposed to ignore it, and move along as not being worthy of consideration.

Again this is just slander, your opinon which you have provided absolutly no proof or even explaination, to why you believe that our nations military is involved in a useless murderous endevour. Again all you've done here is picked up a few peacenik catch phrases and ranted on, with total disregard to any good that is being done. let alone for our soldiers sacrafices...I'm sure this is the trash that your ex military comrads would love to here.

They know full well, that the rules of Islam over-ride any human rights, as they know full well it became entrenched yet again with the re-enactment of old Taliban law.

So far i have seen one example of this , that being that man who wanted to covert to being a christian. our world governments intervened and crisses was adverted. do you actually have any more examples.

So why are we there again? Oh right, we are funding the private army of oil and drug cartells!

So which one is it, oil or drug cartels ? must be the drug cartels, because it has alrady been proven that Afgans oil would not be profitable to exttract...protecting a what 10 to 12 bil dollar industry (est by the UN) , and thats on the north american street value ...you've got to be kidding me, so we are spending all this cash for an actual gross profit of only 10 to 12 bil... when our expenses are what close to those figures already...

Can you please explain this ?

just one thought, your link does not work, and no where does it even talk about Afgan, so how does it all relate to our current topic..Have you read this link ?

My Webpage

[Catchme]

All the links work! Good try!

Well, how about you just think about the partnership between oil and drug cartels, in fact research it. I find that people who never research what they discuss are afraid to find out they are wrong.

Here is an excellent link on the history and progression of wars, and from looking it over I agree it would be a very good educational tool!

http://mapsofwar.com/maps.html

I found it here

[Army Guy]

Catchme:

All the links work! Good try!

Sorry but they do not your link WWW.Tondispatch.com comes up with error requested URL could not be retrieved.

As for you other links i could not find anything about Afgan mentioned within them. As this is the topic of discussion how can anything about Iraq be revelant.

Well, how about you just think about the partnership between oil and drug cartels, in fact research it. I find that people who never research what they discuss are afraid to find out they are wrong.

I'm not the one making all these claims... you have yet to draw any partnership between them and AFgan.

as one thier is no profit to be made from oil in the area. and 2 the profits from the drug trade in Afgan are not worth any payout, atleast not from a government piont of veiw as you suggested. think about this why spend 10 bil a year is assistance when your gross profit margin is only 10 to 12 bil, even a army guy knows the risks are not worth the reward. And i'd be more than willing to read your research provided in relates to the subject at hand or backs your outragious claims.

Here is an excellent link on the history and progression of wars, and from looking it over I agree it would be a very good educational tool!

Again how does a link about Iraq explain your comments on Afgan. infact how does any of your links explain your postion on afgan or your slanderous remarks....they don't...

[madmax]

When our soldiers die, the widows get $750,000 lump sum, and then monthly pay and the soldiers pension. Money does ease pain.

Where did you get the $750,000 Lump Sum from?

[madmax]

scriblett:

Well said, But i'd also like to add, the consquences of not helping or pulling out to earlier far outway those if we stayed.

And how long do you plan to stay?

[Catchme]

na, the tomdispatch link of course works, perhaps you are experiencing browser problems or would like to deflect people away from reading this insightful information? So here is is again plus some more.

Powerful, potentially planet-altering trends like this do not occur in a vacuum. The rise of Energo-fascism can be traced to two overarching phenomena: an imminent collision between energy demand and energy supplies, and the historic migration of the center of gravity of planetary energy output from the global north to the global south.

For the past 60 years, the international energy industry has largely succeeded in satisfying the world's ever-growing thirst for energy in all its forms. When it comes to oil alone, global demand jumped from 15 to 82 million barrels per day between 1955 and 2005, an increase of 450%. Global output rose by a like amount in those years. Worldwide demand is expected to keep growing at this rate, if not faster, for years to come -- propelled in large part by rising affluence in China, India, and other developing nations. There is, however, no expectation that global output can continue to keep pace.

Quite the opposite: A growing number of energy experts believe that the global output of "conventional" (liquid) crude oil will soon reach a peak -- perhaps as early as 2010 or 2015 -- and then begin an irreversible decline. If this proves to be the case, no amount of inputs from Canadian tar sands, shale oil, or other "unconventional" sources will prevent a catastrophic liquid-fuel shortage in a decade or so, producing widespread economic trauma. The global supply of other primary fuels, including natural gas, coal, and uranium is not expected to contract as rapidly, but all of these materials are finite, and will eventually become scarce.

Energy protection racket

So, just where are Canadian military personal grouped again in Afghanistan? Oh, thats right in the neighbourhood of oil pipelines and pumping stations. I am sure that is just coincidence though!

And ya, where does this 750K come from, hopefully not from our tax dollars, it had better be oil cartels paying it off?

[madmax]

Perhaps you should get your facts straight, Islamic law was not re introduced after the election in fact islamic law never left AFGAN. What has changed is the interputation of that law.

Let's look at some of those interpretations.

Faisal Ahmad Shinwari, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Afghanistan from 2001 until 2006. He was appointed to the post by Afghan President Hamid Karzai in accordance with the Afghan Constitution approved after the 2001 overthrow of the Taliban government.

By Western standards, he was widely considered to be a very conservative Islamist, and in his short term as chief justice some of the court's rulings included:

the court, during the 2004 presidential election campaign, sought to ban a candidate who questioned whether polygamy was in keeping with the spirit of Islam;

they have called for an end to cable television service in the country, at least pending government regulation, due in part to the apparent influence of films from Bollywood, which were allegedly prurient [1];

the court upheld the death penalty for two journalists convicted of blasphemy for saying the Islam being practised in the country was reactionary [2];

they banned women from singing on television [3]; and

they ruled that a girl, given as a bride when 9 years old and now 13, could not get a divorce from her abusive husband, notwithstanding a law that makes it illegal for girls under 16 to marry [4].

Yup. its not kites, and radio under the Taliban

It is Cable TV, Blasphemy, Singing on TV, (The Horror, The Horror) , and Legal Pedophillia, and don't dare question multiple wives.

It's time to cut the Western BS about Democracy and Freedom, and leave them to their Islamic State, with Afghan critics, and Religious Police. All Canadian Forces can do is provide the security for the government.

[Army Guy]

madmax:

And how long do you plan to stay?

This is my second tour here in Afgan, as a military member that is not up to me, but i will continue to come back as long as our government deems it nessicary.

Catchme:

Again i am having problems with your link, as i'm doing this from butt crap nowhere in Afgan could you post the revelant info for me. And no i'm not interested in deflecting anything. just interested in where your getting your info...

na, the tomdispatch link of course works, perhaps you are experincing browser problems or would like to deflect people away from reading this insightfukl information? So here is is again plus some more.

The info you keeping posting confirms that the world is dependant on oil, you have yet to prove how this relates to afgan.

So, just where are Canadian military personal grouped again in Afghanistan? Oh, thats right in the neighbourhood of oil pipelines and pumping stations. I am sure that is just coincidence though!

I can assure you that your pipelines are not in our AO which is pretty large the size of a small state, if they were they would be under constant attack as they would offer more of a target than just us...perhaps you can give us a location of these pipelines and pumping stations...

And ya, where does this 750K come from, hopefully not from our tax dollars, it had better be oil cartels paying it off?

Yes, we would not want to show any graditude for those serving our country, let alone those that have died for it...But rest assure your government does not pay out nearly enough or come close to those figures,

DND has it's own issurance plan that most soldiers belong to called SSIP a canex org, related to DND. as 99 % of civilian issurance org will not cover anything in a war zone...but even that would not come close to those figures...I'm surprised that an ex serving military member would not know of that...

[madmax]

We are involved in Afghanistan because the Taliban regime, by offering support to Al Qaeda, represented (and still represents) a threat to us.

I understand your argument that we can't help the all. However, I do believe that Afghanistan, needs a commitment from the countries that brought this wicked Brand of Islam to the Afghans. That would be Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the United States. They had no problem, pumping arms, money, and radical Islam to the Mujahideen, when they fought the Soviets.

The commitment from the US while largest of NATO is not in proportion to the effort they put forth in the 80s.

The Saudis, have gotten off Scott Free. They spent alot of time visiting the Taliban Government in the 90s.

And the Pakistanis whom created the Taliban by putting orphans and religious students in these radical massadras, to create the perfect Islamic state and have a puppet on their border.

Today the Pakistanis are doing exactly what the Taliban did. They are providing protection for the Pashtun/Taliban fighters this winter, so that they will be fresh to kill Canadians come Spring.

While I don't want to digress, it can also be said, that there can be a separation between Pashtuns and hardcore Taliban, and Al Qaida supporters. The problem has been achieving this goal, and Pakistan is not helping it is the problem.

Again another article about Pakistan.

U.S. says Taliban attacks surge as Pakistan turns blind eye

ROBERT BURNS

Associated Press

KABUL — Taliban fighters seeking to regain power in Afghanistan are taking advantage of a recent peace deal with the Pakistan government to dramatically increase attacks on NATO-led forces in eastern and southeastern Afghanistan, several American military officials said Tuesday.

Lt. Gen. Karl Eikenberry, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, said in an interview that Taliban attacks surged by 200 per cent in December, and a U.S. military intelligence officer said that since the peace deal went into effect Sept. 5 the number of attacks in the border area has grown by 300 per cent.

Gen. Eikenberry did not explicitly criticize the peace deal with tribal leaders in the border area and he said he is confident that U.S. and NATO forces are going to dominate on the decisive battlefields.

But he predicted, “It's going to be a violent spring,” and other officials said it has become commonplace for the Pakistani military at border outposts to turn a blind eye to infiltration of Taliban fighters.

Only with lots of pressure applied by the US, does Mushareef do anything. Notice that Pakistan denies it is a haven for Al Qaida, then when Gates shows up they do a strike on Warizstan {sp}. It is all show, and not real commitment. They could close the Masadras. Pakistan ISI is the heavily HUMIT oriented, could inflitrate and close down these places proclaiming that we are EVIL Infidels that need to be fought and then send their students to join the jihad.

[madmax]

Yes, we would not want to show any graditude for those serving our country, let alone those that have died for it...But rest assure your government does not pay out nearly enough or come close to those figures,

DND has it's own issurance plan that most soldiers belong to called SSIP a canex org, related to DND. as 99 % of civilian issurance org will not cover anything in a war zone...but even that would not come close to those figures...I'm surprised that an ex serving military member would not know of that...

Essentially, the $750,000 is wishful thinking on MikeDavids part. Correct?

I think it is wrong to give people the impression that Widows are receiving $750000, when their spouse is killed.

Also, when I was enlisted, I didn't know crap about anything. Just the basics, acronyms which I remember by rhyme, and rhymes I can't use here

Here is a sample of what is available.

Death of contributor while a a. Less than 5 years. a. (1) If there is a surviving widow, or

member of the Forces. child under 18 years of age, the

widow and children are entitled

jointly to the greater of:

(a) return of contributions, or

( an amount equal to one

month's pay for each year

of pensionable service to

the credit of the contributor,

computed on the basis of

the rate of pay authorized to

be paid to him at the time of

his death.

Don't ask me why b is a happy face above, something with the forum itself.

[Army Guy]

madmax:

Which all may sound strange and foreign to you, but we agreed when we first started this mission that we were not there to force any form of government on the Afgan people that we would allow them to choose "thier" government one that would work for them did we not...and if that is thier interputation of islamic law then we have agreed to uphold it...

When was the last time anyone was exucuted in a soccer staduim for the crimes or shall i say infractions that you mentioned, when was the last time someone was shot in the streets by anyone in the Afgan government for simply things such as dress codes, flying a kite, or having thier hands cut off for going to school..

All one has to do is make a list and compare the two the present day Afgan Government and the Taliban and one will find drastic differences and improvements... you pick which one you would perfer to live under...but that is not the piont is it, the Afgan people have not asked you to pick one or for that matter even like the ones they have picked. All they are asking is for NATO to establish security and to assist them in rebuilding

Yup. its not kites, and radio under the Taliban

It is Cable TV, Blasphemy, Singing on TV, (The Horror, The Horror) , and Legal Pedophillia, and don't dare question multiple wives.

It's time to cut the Western BS about Democracy and Freedom, and leave them to their Islamic State, with Afghan critics, and Religious Police. All Canadian Forces can do is provide the security for the government.

Because they are islamic does that mean we can't help, does that mean our way of life is better, to the piont we look down at everyone islamic, or for that matter different, Is that the new Canadian way....is that how we built our reputation of being peacekeepers, peace builders.

No it's time we put the peace signs away in the closet, it's time we start living up to our postion within the world. we has a nation can not help everyone that needs it, but do we use that as an excuse not to assist anyone. or do we make that our new foriegn policy if your not a white anglo nation then we can't help, and oh by the way we need to be done in a few years...

If thats all you think we are doing in Afgan is providing security then your mistaken and ill informed.

[madmax]

Double post deleted

[madmax]

So, just where are Canadian military personal grouped again in Afghanistan? Oh, thats right in the neighbourhood of oil pipelines and pumping stations. I am sure that is just coincidence though!

I have no information the Canadians are fighting near the oil pipelines or future pipelines. These pipelines have been in the works for over a decade, so I don't know if the routing has changed.

And ya, where does this 750K come from, hopefully not from our tax dollars, it had better be oil cartels paying it off?

Are you cracked? I wanted proof of this statement. I was heavily skeptical and will be until MikeDavid can provide the proof behind his statement.

You wanna rant about Oil Cartels, and sh*T. Conspiracy theorists would have a heyday with you. Especially when you go and tie Oil Cartels to a very questionable statement of death benefits.

We aren't in Afghanistan for Oil. Infact I would argue the US isn't in Afghanistan with strenght because it the pipeline itself isn't a big enough carrot, when the US defends its "Interests".

Read "Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid. He stumbled into the Taliban and the US Government working on the pipeline deal by accident.

[Army Guy]

madmax:

Also, when I was enlisted, I didn't know crap about anything. Just the basics, acronyms which I remember by rhyme, and rhymes I can't use here

It was not you that i was ref to when i mentioned military service it was Catch me, who's claim to prior military service was called into question some time ago.

[Catchme]

Yes, we would not want to show any graditude for those serving our country, let alone those that have died for it...But rest assure your government does not pay out nearly enough or come close to those figures,

DND has it's own issurance plan that most soldiers belong to called SSIP a canex org, related to DND. as 99 % of civilian issurance org will not cover anything in a war zone...but even that would not come close to those figures...I'm surprised that an ex serving military member would not know of that...

Oh please, spare me the poor me trip that the Canadian military does not get any gratitude for serving their country, it was your choice, as it was mine. Many people serve Canada on many different, and more important levels than our military being in Afghanistan under false premise, and don't get any gratitude either. the military is not an "must applaud" no matter what entity. This does not mean I want their/your lives lost, I don't, I want them/you home.

The 750 k that widows supposedly get, was not my posting, and why you would skew it to try to slam me is unknown. I simply wanted to know where this came from, from the originator of the post containing that info. As there sure as hell was not that kind of loss of life insurance when I was around, nor can I see our government or indeed any government dolling that kinda cash out, plus pensions.