jbg Posted January 3, 2007 Report Posted January 3, 2007 A simple question: "Would the Palestinians, if they controlled this area, be doing the same thing as described in this article? Or would they be looking for scores to settle, people to kill? (link to article) =============================================================== New York TimesJanuary 2, 2007 From Far Beneath the Israeli Desert, Water Sustains a Fertile Enterprise By DINA KRAFT KIBBUTZ MASHABBE SADE, Israel — The day’s coppery last light reflects off the backs of sea bass swimming in fish ponds lined in neat rows on this desert farm. Fish farming in the desert may at first sound like an anomaly, but in Israel over the last decade a scientific hunch has turned into a bustling business. *snip* “It is important to stop with the reputation that arid land is nonfertile, useless land,” said Professor Appelbaum, who pioneered the concept of desert aquaculture in Israel in the late 1980s. “We should consider arid land where subsurface water exists as land that has great opportunities, especially in food production because of the low level of competition on the land itself and because it gives opportunities to its inhabitants.” The next step in this country, where water is scarce and expensive, was to show farmers that they could later use the water in which the fish are raised to irrigate their crops in a system called double usage. The organic waste produced by the cultured fish makes the water especially useful, because it acts as fertilizer for the crops. Fields watered by brackish water dot Israel’s Negev and Arava Deserts in the south of the country, where they spread out like green blankets against a landscape of sand dunes and rocky outcrops. At Kibbutz Mashabbe Sade in the Negev, the recycled water from the fish ponds is used to irrigate acres of olive and jojoba groves. Elsewhere it is also used for irrigating date palms and alfalfa. The chain of multiple users for the water is potentially a model that can be copied, especially in arid third world countries where farmers struggle to produce crops, and Israeli scientists have recently been peddling their ideas abroad. Dry lands cover about 40 percent of the planet, and the people who live on them are often among the poorest in the world. Scientists are working to share the desert aquaculture technology they fine-tuned here with Tanzania, India, Australia and China, among others. (Similar methods of fish farming are also being used in the Sonoran Desert of Arizona.) *snip* He remembers the stories his parents, who, along with other founders of the kibbutz in 1948, would tell of having to travel long days to get to the fields of the communal farm. They then tilled closer to central Israel, because at the time the local arid ground was thought to be impossible to farm. “Now,” he said, pointing toward the desert-grown crops, “the fields are all here.” Mr. Ziv and his dog turned back toward the fish ponds stretched out under green plastic hothouse canopies. It was time to prepare for a shipment of hatchlings that was to arrive the next day. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted January 3, 2007 Author Report Posted January 3, 2007 My point of my posting the article was to contrast the Israelis' emphasis on innovation and building and the "Palestinians'" emphasis on death. Too bad no one thinks to ask if the "Palestinians" have development plans or only military plans for any land they manage to obtain. Frankly, too bad no one asks that question of "independent" countries created in recent years (other than Israel and perhaps India). Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Remiel Posted January 3, 2007 Report Posted January 3, 2007 So, what are your innovative plans for building on when you take over Public Opinion Land by convincing us all that the Palestinians are a vile, evil and useless race? Wait... aren't you just going to use that ground to plan more violence? How is that really any different? Quote
leonardcohen Posted January 3, 2007 Report Posted January 3, 2007 So, what are your innovative plans for building on when you take over Public Opinion Land by convincing us ''all that the Palestinians are a vile, evil and useless race?'' Wait... aren't you just going to use that ground to plan more violence? How is that really any different? Try not to put words into peoples mouths,Those are your words,not his. Quote Whatever Thy Hand Finds To Do- Do With All Thy Might!
Black Dog Posted January 3, 2007 Report Posted January 3, 2007 I wonder if this bizzaro world scenario jbg has created also has the Palestinians recieving tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid (both public and private), as Israel has. Additional query: what would Israel's economy look like without that support? Quote
Remiel Posted January 3, 2007 Report Posted January 3, 2007 I was trying to be sarcastic, though I may have put it too harshly, Leonard. In any case, the point remains: JBG can be observed to generally favour violent retaliation and a hardline stance against the Palestinians, thus if he were to win ground in Public Opinion Land, it can only be surmised that he would then proceed to take more violent action against them. Keep in my though, he is also trying to compare the development capabilities of people under completely different economic circumstances. The two simply cannot be equated. Besides, he fails to take into that if the IDF decided that farm land would be better used for a military installation, it would probably become a military installation. Quote
PolyNewbie Posted January 4, 2007 Report Posted January 4, 2007 If the Israelis were being nice to the palistinians and not just simply out to exterminate them they could easily give them a sea port. That thin strip of Israel on the map doesn't serve any purpose but prevent Palistines access to the sea. Besides that article is based on nothing but presstitute supposition. Quote Support the troops. Bring them home. Let the bankers fight their own wars. www.infowars.com Watch 911 Mysteries at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8172271955308136871 "By the time the people wake up to see the bars around them, the door will have already slammed shut." Texx Mars
jbg Posted January 4, 2007 Author Report Posted January 4, 2007 So, what are your innovative plans for building on when you take over Public Opinion Land by convincing us all that the Palestinians are a vile, evil and useless race? Wait... aren't you just going to use that ground to plan more violence? How is that really any different? Maybe the Palestinians (if there are such people) should give true peace a chance, try to build a civil society, productive economy, on the lands they're administering. Maybe, with true, unfettered recognition of Israel, their border could become as essentially arbitrary as the US-Canadian border, i.e. a line on a map, but not a barrier to business and communication. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Figleaf Posted January 4, 2007 Report Posted January 4, 2007 There is no reason to think that Palestinians would be upset or violent if they'd never been victimized by western-colonial-zionism in the first place. Any criticism Israel levels against the Palestinians falls against the ineluctible backdrop of that original wrong -- it's just further extension of the essential contempt an aggressor holds for the victim. Quote
jbg Posted January 4, 2007 Author Report Posted January 4, 2007 I wonder if this bizzaro world scenario jbg has created also has the Palestinians recieving tens of billions of dollars in foreign aid (both public and private), as Israel has. Additional query: what would Israel's economy look like without that support? The Palestinians have received extremely significant support. The difference is that they have nothing to show for it. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted January 4, 2007 Author Report Posted January 4, 2007 There is no reason to think that Palestinians would be upset or violent if they'd never been victimized by western-colonial-zionism in the first place.Any criticism Israel levels against the Palestinians falls against the ineluctible backdrop of that original wrong -- it's just further extension of the essential contempt an aggressor holds for the victim. How much violence do you see Jews organizing against the perpetrators of the Holocaust? How many Jewish suicide bombings have their been in Germany, Austria or Poland? How many attacks have Jews made against US or Canadian interests for their failing to let Jews in during WW II? The Israelis have concentrated on building a civil society. By contrast, the Palestinians have destroyed much of what was given to them (link) , in the case discussed in the linked article, by the US's Jewish community at the cost of $14 million. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Black Dog Posted January 4, 2007 Report Posted January 4, 2007 The Palestinians have received extremely significant support. The difference is that they have nothing to show for it. How much? Israel has recieved well over $100 billion in assistance from the U.S. government alone. How much has the P.A. gotten? Also: how well would Israel have faired if the roles were reversed and it was labouring under a military occupation by a much more powerful neighbour? Your scenario ignores a great deal of context and discounts innumerable variables. IOW: it's dumb. Quote
Figleaf Posted January 4, 2007 Report Posted January 4, 2007 How much violence do you see Jews organizing against the perpetrators of the Holocaust? How many Jewish suicide bombings have their been in Germany, Austria or Poland?How many attacks have Jews made against US or Canadian interests for their failing to let Jews in during WW II? What do you think that has to do with my comment you quoted? Quote
sharkman Posted January 4, 2007 Report Posted January 4, 2007 How much? Israel has recieved well over $100 billion in assistance from the U.S. government alone. How much has the P.A. gotten? Also: how well would Israel have faired if the roles were reversed and it was labouring under a military occupation by a much more powerful neighbour?Your scenario ignores a great deal of context and discounts innumerable variables. IOW: it's dumb. Yassar amassed a huge fortune with the aid that was directed at Palestine by the UN. Although it's ironic that all of the Arab nations in the area wouldn't help their brothers in Palestine build a country. Because that's not what they want. They want their brothers to suffer and die and weep for the cameras so simpleminded twits without a grasp on history will be swayed by the horror of it all. Then attacks on those 'Jew Dogs' will have more support and maybe one day they can wipe the whole race out with a little help from Iran's crazy leader. Quote
Black Dog Posted January 4, 2007 Report Posted January 4, 2007 Yassar amassed a huge fortune with the aid that was directed at Palestine by the UN. Although it's ironic that all of the Arab nations in the area wouldn't help their brothers in Palestine build a country. Not really. Corruption is a natural byproduct in a society lacking any type of civil government. And Arabs aren't a monolith anymore than white Judeo-Chrsitians of European origin are, so to describe the Palestinians as their "brothers" is a bit silly. Because that's not what they want. They want their brothers to suffer and die and weep for the cameras so simpleminded twits without a grasp on history will be swayed by the horror of it all. Then attacks on those 'Jew Dogs' will have more support and maybe one day they can wipe the whole race out with a little help from Iran's crazy leader. I'm quite curious about what kind of insight you have into the "Arab mind" that enables you to make such an observation. Quote
sharkman Posted January 4, 2007 Report Posted January 4, 2007 Yes really. Yassar robbed his own people for decades. While on his deathbed, his handlers tried to get him to give up bank account numbers to his fortune. This was in the news. You don't need special insight into the Arab mind to draw basic truths from the actions of Arab nations. It's weird really. They all hate the Jew. They want Israel to fail. Helping Israel's oppponent would hurt Israel. But they won't help their brothers build a nation. That's how strong their hatred of Israel is. Pathetic. Quote
Black Dog Posted January 4, 2007 Report Posted January 4, 2007 Yes really. Yassar robbed his own people for decades. While on his deathbed, his handlers tried to get him to give up bank account numbers to his fortune. This was in the news. You misunderstood. I'm not disputing the accuracy of your statement, but its relevance. Arafat, btw, was Egyptian. You don't need special insight into the Arab mind to draw basic truths from the actions of Arab nations. Do the actons of Arab nations reflect the attitudes of Arab people's? Or vice versa? It's weird really. They all hate the Jew. They want Israel to fail. Helping Israel's oppponent would hurt Israel. But they won't help their brothers build a nation. That's how strong their hatred of Israel is. Pathetic So you're saying they hate Israel so much that they want to hurt he Palestinians? Huh? Also: what's with this "brothers" crap? Why assume a Sunni Arab in Damascus has anything in common with a Shiite Arab in Ramallah? Would you assume a Jew in Tel Aviv has some kind of bond or obligation towards a Jew in Toronto? Quote
sharkman Posted January 4, 2007 Report Posted January 4, 2007 I mean 'brothers' in a generic sense, the way people band together when they have a common enemy. BTW, Jews in Isael and Toronto can have a bond, but some wouldn't. Without repeating myself, I thought you'd draw the conclusion that Arab nations won't help Palestine so Palestine hurts more. This puts more pressure on Israel, their common enemy. If they helped Palestine, built factories and industries that ran on no doubt cheap labour, they could get Palestine out of poverty and give them hope for the future. Instead they are only taught to hate the Jew. Hasn't Arafat refered to them as his people, not of race, but as a leader serves his people? Quote
Black Dog Posted January 4, 2007 Report Posted January 4, 2007 I mean 'brothers' in a generic sense, the way people band together when they have a common enemy. BTW, Jews in Isael and Toronto can have a bond, but some wouldn't. Cultural or religious commonality may join people togteher. But it's a stretch to expect those flimsy ties to motivate people to actually do something for someone else when there's nothing in it for them. Without repeating myself, I thought you'd draw the conclusion that Arab nations won't help Palestine so Palestine hurts more. This puts more pressure on Israel, their common enemy. If they helped Palestine, built factories and industries that ran on no doubt cheap labour, they could get Palestine out of poverty and give them hope for the future. Instead they are only taught to hate the Jew. Or could it be that the status quo as we know it serves the interests of Arab governments? Do nations or individuals generally act in ways that actually oppose their interests? It seems kind of silly to look at two parties (the Arab nations and Israel) and expect the party with the least interest in resolving a problem to solve it. If building factories and industries is the way to lift Palestine out of poverty and give them hope for the future why isn't Israel doing just that? Quote
BC_chick Posted January 4, 2007 Report Posted January 4, 2007 My point of my posting the article was to contrast the Israelis' emphasis on innovation and building and the "Palestinians'" emphasis on death. I'm halfway through Carter's Palestine, Peace not Apartheid right now and I have learned so much that is not mentioned in the official "Israel wants peace" argument.... It's interesting to note that before the Palestinian identity was defined with the struggle against Israel, a preoccupation with violence was not the modus operandi for them. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that their land was taken away from them, their arab neighbours stopped fighting for them, the West stopped working for peace on their behalf and Israel gave up the charade that the occupied land will ever be exchanged for peace. Subsequently, their way of life went from farming and free-enterprise to doing menial job for Israelis, in allocated neighbourhoods where they can't move without humiliation and intimidation, they pay up to four times as much for water, their houses were taken from them and flattened to make room for new Jewish emigres, their criticism thereof resulted in being tried and imprisoned in military tribunals where the judges brand them as terrorists and lock them up with or without proof. Without autonomy or the environment to flourish, where do you suppose they should come up with the RESOURCES for social improvement? Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
sharkman Posted January 5, 2007 Report Posted January 5, 2007 If building factories and industries is the way to lift Palestine out of poverty and give them hope for the future why isn't Israel doing just that? Israel gave a chunk of their country in the last year. With houses and such on it. This was followed by Hezbolah starting a mini war. I shudder to think what would happen if Israel started industry in Palestine. B.C. chick, this may fall on deaf years, but Jimmy Carter is the mastermind behind North Korea signing a treaty with the U.S. around '95. Of course they took the money offered, ignored the treaty and developed Nuclear Weapons. Jimmy has no reputation left on which to solve the middle east problem. Calling it apartheid is an insult to South Africans who lived under that barbaric system. Quote
jbg Posted January 5, 2007 Author Report Posted January 5, 2007 Subsequently, their way of life went from farming and free-enterprise to doing menial job for Israelis, in allocated neighbourhoods where they can't move without humiliation and intimidation, they pay up to four times as much for water, their houses were taken from them and flattened to make room for new Jewish emigres, their criticism thereof resulted in being tried and imprisoned in military tribunals where the judges brand them as terrorists and lock them up with or without proof.Without autonomy or the environment to flourish, where do you suppose they should come up with the RESOURCES for social improvement? How much "farming" were they really doing? From what I understand, until the Israelis instituted irrigation, not much was possible. With regard to "autonomy" do you expect a liberal democratic environment? If there is none, who's autonomy are we talking about? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jdobbin Posted January 5, 2007 Report Posted January 5, 2007 Palestinians used to farm the lush lands of the Jordan Valley. Now they are being expelled by renewed Israeli building. Last week, even the United States opposed this move. http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0105/p04s01-wome.html http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull Do you believe the Palestinians should be evicted from lands they do farm in? Other Palestinian farmers face problems. http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=12214 Quote
Figleaf Posted January 5, 2007 Report Posted January 5, 2007 Israel gave a chunk of their country in the last year. With houses and such on it. Let's be precise. Israel withdrew its illegal settlers and ground-based military from a small part of occupied Palestine (the Gaza strip). Gaza's ports and borders remain under Israeli interdiction. This was followed by Hezbolah starting a mini war. The Palestinian struggle for freedom didn't 'start' then. It continued. Quote
sharkman Posted January 5, 2007 Report Posted January 5, 2007 Let's be precise. Israel withdrew its illegal settlers and ground-based military from a small part of occupied Palestine (the Gaza strip). Gaza's ports and borders remain under Israeli interdiction.The Palestinian struggle for freedom didn't 'start' then. It continued. What Israel did was a huge sacrifice for its citizens in an effort for peace. And the repsonse was for Hezbolah to start a mini war, in Palestine's name. How sickening. And we all know they fired their missiles from Hospitals, mosques, and residential areas, forcing the patients, worshippers and others to stay in place waiting for the inevitable response, all so they could then march the bleeding bodies in front of the westen media. If you want to be precise, Hezbolah's war was completely unneeded, and only done in an effort to neutralize Israel's good gesture. Quote
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