American Football

[Black Dog]

Its a matter of opinion I suppose. But it's been my experience that most people who don't like football don't truly understand it. It's much more complex than soccer with a whole lot going on, both mentally and action-wise on every play - which is why football teams have so many coaches.

Of course that line ("yopu just don't get it it!") can be, and has been, used to defend just about anything.

Alot of people who like more simple-minded one-dimensional sports like soccer or hockey often don't get it and don't see what's happening on each play all over the field. I used to be like that until I learned alot more about the game.

It's been my experience that most people who think soccer and hockey are one-dimensional sports don't truly understand them.

I certainly favor hockey over football, but there is no way it has even a fractino of the complexity that football does. Once I learned that I started to enjoy the NFL immensely.

Complexity does not equal entertaining or exciting. Baseball is also a extremely complicated sport. It's also incredibly boring. If I wanted to waste three hours of my life on an activity who's sole redeeming quality is its complexity, I'd attend a lecture on particle physics. At least then there's a chance I might learn something of value.

Hockey has more immediate gratification - chance after chance after chance. Football is a more well thought out and deliberate plan, attack, defend type of game - which is probably why alot of Americans dig it so much - it kind of resembles war with the ground attack, the air attack, the wide outs, the ground pounders....

Don't forget the popularity boost afforded by the endless opportunities for sitting and snacking a football game provides. And, of course, gambling.

The war analogy is a good one though: war has been described as as long stretches of boredom punctuated by brief moments of action: that about sums up North American throwball.

Soccer ...well, soccer is often exclipsed by another activity - watching paint dry.

Gee, that's original.

[JerrySeinfeld]

It's been my experience that most people who think soccer and hockey are one-dimensional sports don't truly understand them.

haha - I coach hockey you silly mook.

NFL is the best league. NHL is good too - hockey is my favorite sport but the NFL is a superior product in terms of marketing, television, parity, star power, economics, etc. etc.

You can really gamble on any sport can you not?

But the NFL games I've been to - i mean what an EVENT! they truly know how to do it up.

And one thing I have noticed at NFL games. There are SO many opportunities to stand up and cheer with the crowd. Every single play when the home team is on defense, the crowd is truly deafening. It's so amazing. Soccer provides the chance for the home crowd to celebrate a goal an average of only about TWICE in a 90 minute match.

Hockey has gotten better, but there is still maybe only 2-4 times you get to stand up and go crazy about a goal by the home team.

Sure there are fights and hits, but still doesn't add up to the pandemonium during every defensive stand by the home squad in an NFL game. When you buy and NFL ticket, you're guaranteed at least dozens of opportunities to get right crazy with the crowd.

I enjoy all sports. Even soccer. I have really really tried - but it's still on the bottom of the list. It's truly quite lame.

[Black Dog]

haha - I coach hockey you silly mook.

And?

NFL is the best league. NHL is good too - hockey is my favorite sport but the NFL is a superior product in terms of marketing, television, parity, star power, economics, etc. etc.

But not in terms of the actual game. All the glitz and money in the world doesn't matter when the product itself is so frigging dull.

You can really gamble on any sport can you not?

Football is the biggest in terms of gambling.

But the NFL games I've been to - i mean what an EVENT! they truly know how to do it up.

And one thing I have noticed at NFL games. There are SO many opportunities to stand up and cheer with the crowd. Every single play when the home team is on defense, the crowd is truly deafening. It's so amazing. Soccer provides the chance for the home crowd to celebrate a goal an average of only about TWICE in a 90 minute match.

If you think the atmosphere at a major football (not throwball) event is bad, you've obviously never been to one.

Hockey has gotten better, but there is still maybe only 2-4 times you get to stand up and go crazy about a goal by the home team.

Sure there are fights and hits, but still doesn't add up to the pandemonium during every defensive stand by the home squad in an NFL game. When you buy and NFL ticket, you're guaranteed at least dozens of opportunities to get right crazy with the crowd.

So it's not about the quality of the sport but the quality of the mob.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Football is the biggest in terms of gambling.

Yes - because its the most exciting to watch.

If you think the atmosphere at a major football (not throwball) event is bad, you've obviously never been to one.

Been to two games at old trafford. Average. Lots of drunks. Not much to watch on the field.

So it's not about the quality of the sport but the quality of the mob.

Now you're getting there - live sports is about the EXPERIENCE. But you're trying to make it mutually exlusive. It's not and either or my friend. Not everything is black and white.

NFL has the best game, the most exciting finishes most of the time, the most parity, the best crowds, the best stadiums, the closest playoff races, the least predictable outcomes - all which contribute to the excitement of the product and the experience.

I'll cut soccer some slack - I enjoy the highlights. But it doesn't even hold a candle to NFL.

[Black Dog]

Yes - because its the most exciting to watch.

That doesn't make any sense.

Now you're getting there - live sports is about the EXPERIENCE. But you're trying to make it mutually exlusive. It's not and either or my friend. Not everything is black and white.

NFL has the best game, the most exciting finishes most of the time, the most parity, the best crowds, the best stadiums, the closest playoff races, the least predictable outcomes - all which contribute to the excitement of the product and the experience.

We're not talking about what's the better experience or marketing package: we're arguing about what happens on the field, not on its periphary. By that standard, football is dull dull dull.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Yes - because its the most exciting to watch.

That doesn't make any sense.

Now you're getting there - live sports is about the EXPERIENCE. But you're trying to make it mutually exlusive. It's not and either or my friend. Not everything is black and white.

NFL has the best game, the most exciting finishes most of the time, the most parity, the best crowds, the best stadiums, the closest playoff races, the least predictable outcomes - all which contribute to the excitement of the product and the experience.

We're not talking about what's the better experience or marketing package: we're arguing about what happens on the field, not on its periphary. By that standard, football is dull dull dull.

No it's not. It's amazing - soccer is dull. But then again, as I stated previously, it's just a matter of opinion.

[Black Dog]

The numbers don't lie. Each throwball game lasts roughly three hours of "real" time. Each team gets about 60 plays, that's 120 plays in a game. Each play is an average of six seconds in length. That’s a total of 12 minutes of action over a three hour time span. That's a lot of time spent watching fat guys standing around.

People like you harp on football, but football is 90 minutes of constant motion, mostly unmarred by the constant delays that are inherent in throwball and baseball.

[JerrySeinfeld]

The numbers don't lie. Each throwball game lasts roughly three hours of "real" time. Each team gets about 60 plays, that's 120 plays in a game. Each play is an average of six seconds in length. That’s a total of 12 minutes of action over a three hour time span. That's a lot of time spent watching fat guys standing around.

People like you harp on football, but football is 90 minutes of constant motion, mostly unmarred by the constant delays that are inherent in throwball and baseball.

First of all, they're called football and soccer over here. Even pretentious wannabe euros don't call the TTC subway the "tube".

Thanks for sharing the clock thing (gee - never heard THAT before from soccer mooks) but it doesn't relate to anything. In football every play is a scoring opportunity. In soccer, sure the clock is running while frick and frack ponytail play pass back and forth for eight minutes in their OWN penalty area....oops...lokoing here they're crossing the centre line - er - scratch that - they're back in their own zone again....back after these messages..........................hi we're back....and the play still hasn't shown any signs of moving toward the opposition's end of the pitch..... hahahaha. It's not uncommon to go 10 minutes without even a threat to score on the opposition. Yet the clock is running, so it MUST be exciting.

Thrilling endings is something else rarely found in soccer but found every sunday in the NFL. Soccer endings are usually characterized by a bunch of guys passing it around in mid-field and some rotten-toothed brit broadcaster hmming and hawing about how much injury time we have to endure

Speaking of Football, did anyone see killer finish to the Fiesta Bowl yesterday? Holy shnikies!! Now THAT was exciting.

[Ricki Bobbi]

How come no one mentione dthe glaringingly obvious: that what North Americans (for some unknown reason) refer to as "football" is dull. Not quite baseball dull, but still somewhere below a coma as far as excitement goes.

Hey you pretension wannabe Eurotrash you are clearly a troll.

Why not start a thread about the merits of soccer versus football instead of high jacking this one?

[Black Dog]

First of all, they're called football and soccer over here. Even pretentious wannabe euros don't call the TTC subway the "tube".

I don't care.

Thanks for sharing the clock thing (gee - never heard THAT before from soccer mooks) but it doesn't relate to anything. In football every play is a scoring opportunity.

In theory. But then, the same goes for "soccer", hockey, baseball, basketball cricket, curling....

In soccer, sure the clock is running while frick and frack ponytail play pass back and forth for eight minutes in their OWN penalty area....oops...lokoing here they're crossing the centre line - er - scratch that - they're back in their own zone again....back after these messages..........................hi we're back....and the play still hasn't shown any signs of moving toward the opposition's end of the pitch..... hahahaha. It's not uncommon to go 10 minutes without even a threat to score on the opposition. Yet the clock is running, so it MUST be exciting.

That never happens. Soccer plays take a long time to develop and each play is a combination of team tactics and one-on-one play. Yeah, some teams play a slow, boring style (I blame the Italians for that). But there's more actually happening on the field at any given time.

Thrilling endings is something else rarely found in soccer but found every sunday in the NFL. Soccer endings are usually characterized by a bunch of guys passing it around in mid-field and some rotten-toothed brit broadcaster hmming and hawing about how much injury time we have to endure

There's far more blowouts in "football". As for the thrilling endings, that's only because the last two minutes opf the game are the only time anything actually happens.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Soccer plays take a long time to develop

(yawn).....ummm.....ya think?

You mean the plays that actually DO develop? Since most soccer games consist of about 4 chances and 2 goals, that means 99% of what is ATTEMPTED never comes to fruition. In football, a completed pass or first down has small measurable goals that must be achieved all the way down the field. A crucial first down is another point of excitement in the game. A crucial defensive stop is another. There are many measurable "successes" and "failures" throughout a football game for which the crowd can get excited or not.

On the other hand, a soccer team might work its way 3/4 of the way down the field, find themselves trapped and work all the way back and try the other side or work it around looking for an opening. But unless you're a total loser I can't see getting excited about a 15 foot pass from mid to striker across the centre line and back again.

That never happens. and each play is a combination of team tactics and one-on-one play.

Football is the ULTIMATE example of this, moreso than any other sport both on planning, strategy, tactics and one-on-one play.

Thrilling endings is something else rarely found in soccer but found every sunday in the NFL. Soccer endings are usually characterized by a bunch of guys passing it around in mid-field and some rotten-toothed brit broadcaster hmming and hawing about how much injury time we have to endure

There's far more blowouts in "football". As for the thrilling endings, that's only because the last two minutes opf the game are the only time anything actually happens.

All this statement does is prove your ignorance.

[Ricki Bobbi]

All this statement does is prove your ignorance.

In the classic sense of the term.

NFL is great to watch. The only thing that beats it is a good quality hockey game.

[Black Dog]

You mean the plays that actually DO develop? Since most soccer games consist of about 4 chances and 2 goals, that means 99% of what is ATTEMPTED never comes to fruition. In football, a completed pass or first down has small measurable goals that must be achieved all the way down the field. A crucial first down is another point of excitement in the game. A crucial defensive stop is another. There are many measurable "successes" and "failures" throughout a football game for which the crowd can get excited or not.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...huzzah...whuzzat? "Measurable goals"? Is it a game or an annual report?

On the other hand, a soccer team might work its way 3/4 of the way down the field, find themselves trapped and work all the way back and try the other side or work it around looking for an opening. But unless you're a total loser I can't see getting excited about a 15 foot pass from mid to striker across the centre line and back again.

But you can get a boner over a guy moving the ball one or two inches? Thrilliing stuff, that.

Football is the ULTIMATE example of this, moreso than any other sport both on planning, strategy, tactics and one-on-one play.

"Football" is potentially all those things. It seldom fulfills its potential. "Football" would be improved a thousandfold if no-huddle offense was mandatory on every play. Cut out all the ridiculiously long periods where everyone is just standing around.

All this statement does is prove your ignorance.

Naw.

[JerrySeinfeld]

In addition, watching the fairies in soccer feign injury and writhe in pain one minute, only to get up and sprint down the field the next is ridiculous and embarassing.

NFL rocks.

Playoffs next week YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

[jdobbin]

The NFL is a rich city sport, and Toronto is a rich large city. Yes the CFL does involve national pride, and yes the stadium thing is a problem. I think that football will soon price itself out of smaller cities like Buffalo, so I can imagine relocation over expansion. No, I do not see football in Europe, but NFLEurope has done ok in Germany. Baseball got its start in Japan postWWII, so it takes time and exposure. Now the Japanese love it. I could see eventual expansion into Mexico City. They have drawn great preseason crowds down there. Language would be a problem, of course, but Mexico City has alot of people, and great weather. Their team would have the advantage of being altitude adjusted, very important in the fourth quarter.

The NFL teams revenue share. They have a salary cap. They are very friendly to small market teams. The one thing they don't do is relocate to cities where there is not a good stadium. Toronto doesn't have an NFL stadium. If someone wants to move or buy and NFL franchise, they will have to build the largest stadium Canada has ever seen.

NFL Europe has been a disappointment for the NFL according to financial reports.

Every time this subject comes up, NFL execs lay out the circumstances for the NFL to come to Canada: stadium, filthy rich owner and a football mad city. Toronto has none of those things.

[ft.niagara]

Every time this subject comes up, NFL execs lay out the circumstances for the NFL to come to Canada: stadium, filthy rich owner and a football mad city. Toronto has none of those things.

You are probably right. I think that if it were ever to come to Canada, it would be Toronto first. You would probably need a domed stadium because of the weather. As of now, Seattle and Minnesota are the two most northern cities, and I think both have domes. I suppose it would be risky for even a wealthy man.

But then it IS the NFL.

[jdobbin]

You are probably right. I think that if it were ever to come to Canada, it would be Toronto first. You would probably need a domed stadium because of the weather. As of now, Seattle and Minnesota are the two most northern cities, and I think both have domes. I suppose it would be risky for even a wealthy man.

But then it IS the NFL.

No doubt that if they ever did come to Canada, it would be Toronto. At the moment, they make a lot of money off of Canada already.

The only market the NFL is extremely interested in is Los Angeles. However, they won't trip up over themselves unless an owner and the city come up with a huge deal for a new stadium.

That is how successful the NFL has become. It can even turn its nose up on Ls Angeles if the circumstances are not ideal.

[Ricki Bobbi]

That is how successful the NFL has become. It can even turn its nose up on Ls Angeles if the circumstances are not ideal.

That's a bit of a mis-characterization.

LA has been a nightmare for the NFL for a long-time. LA Memorial Coliseum is huge, but not really well-suited for the requirements of a modern NFL team. No box seats, or club section. It would take money to bring it up to standard and no one is willing to bring in the money.

As the Coliseum is in South LA there was very little interest in taxpayer-funded renovations as the neighbourhood was considered too *scary*. South LA has been cleaned up a lot so people might be more receptive in the future.

The NFL almost went back to LA in 2002. But their options were LA where people didn't really care too too much about bringing a team back and Houston which bent over backwards to do so.

[Remiel]

I wonder what would happen if we could experiment on the NFL by making them play by CFL rules for a season... With four downs, there is much more running and much less throwing, no? There was just an article the other day on how the pro football player with the most career passing yards is in the CFL... I like the passing game more than the running game, but I don't really watch football other than the odd Grey Cup.

Basketball I never watch, but I actually went to a Raptors game with my sister, which I enjoyed. Every sport is more interesting when you are right there where the action is happening. They managed to win that game too. However, basketball is a great illustration of how a game with lots of scoring opportunities does not automatically make it a superior game.

Baseball is the only game I've played competitively (I'm not very good at sports in generally), but I enjoyed it for a time. If the Jays ever get another chance at the pennant, I might start watching again.

I've probably watched less soccer in my life than any of the big team sports, but that could change now. I got my sister FIFA World Cup 2006 for Christmas, and I've been playing as well, and I enjoy it (I hadn't bought a sports game in a VERY long time before that, though I don't count Need For Speed games because they do not emulate actual racing). Maybe I'll graduate to actually watching the real thing, especially now that I've read we have a new team in Toronto, the FC (what the hell does that stand for?).

Hockey is well... hockey! Go, Leafs! Go! (and all you haters can wither and die, ) Right now, I'd rather watch hockey than any other team sport.

Really, we don't *need* an NFL franchise in Toronto, because we don't *need* another couple dozen phenomenally overpaid athletes. Football has enough people to support it in the US. Our money is better spent on sports that are played at an international level. North American football just isn't, and probably won't be for an extremely long time, if ever. Soccer, Basketball, Baseball and Hockey are all part of *HUGE* international competitions.

And I'd like to see the numbers for the Super Bowl versus the FIFA World Cup finals. I seriously doubt the Super Bowl stands up well in comparison.

[moderateamericain]

some intresting obvservations either way. My experience with soccer (futball) and football (throwball courtesy of black dog) is limited to 4 years of soccer in highschool and 6 years of football (4 years hs 2 walk on in college) In playing both sports, I can honestly say that I had a greater love of football. Soccer was a great game, and i still pay close attention during the world cup, but the thing that makes Football so intresting to me enough to go tailgate for the panthers or travel up to app state or another college to watch it, is the rich tradition that it holds. Personally I prefer college football to pro ball, pro players are their for the money college players are there for the prestiage and because they love it. Now is there problems, sure, sports boosters, gambling, etc. But the rich traditions and rivialries are very exciting. I dont think that Blackdog is being a "wanna be Euro" as some of you put. I think if you dont grow up into the tradition you cant really appreciate it. Its not elitist to not appreciate something that you dont trully understand. I can still remember the beat of the drums, as we walked down into are stadium and the lines of the band as we ran through them as they played are fight song. I still remeber every sprint and bone crushing hit, Hit someone or be hit at full speed and you feel like your teeth are gonna rattle out, watching the score board as time ran out with you on top, and sometimes the sadness of defeat. Those things never really go away, and unless you experieced them yourself, you wont ever appreciate them.

As far as Canada getting a pro team, the big thing that i think is preventing it besides fan base, is weather.

[Ricki Bobbi]

I dont think that Blackdog is being a "wanna be Euro" as some of you put. I think if you dont grow up into the tradition you cant really appreciate it. Its not elitist to not appreciate something that you dont trully understand.

As far as Canada getting a pro team, the big thing that i think is preventing it besides fan base, is weather.

It's more than him just not appreciating football, but belittling it. That's where the wannabe eurotrash comes in.

I never grew up with soccer but I can appreciate it as a sport to play and I can understand why people watch it. Belittling soccer in comparison would be just as bad as what Blackdog did.

Weather is irrelevant to Canada getting an NFL team. Any NFL team in Canada would have to play in a domed stadium, no questions asked.

[Black Dog]

It's more than him just not appreciating football, but belittling it. That's where the wannabe eurotrash comes in.

I never grew up with soccer but I can appreciate it as a sport to play and I can understand why people watch it. Belittling soccer in comparison would be just as bad as what Blackdog did.

First, thanks to moderateamericain for the support, but it's really not neccesary. It's funny: I used to find "soccer" dull and used to watch both the CFL and NFL regularily.Then I started playing "soccer" recreationally, which gave me a great appreciation for the nuances of the game and enabled me to lok at the pro game in a new light. Shortly thereafter, I realized one Sunday that "football" is essentially one long slow-motion car accident and I just couldn't watch it anymore.

Second: I don't find being called a wannabe Euro particularily insulting. There's far worse things to be, IMV.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I dont think that Blackdog is being a "wanna be Euro" as some of you put. I think if you dont grow up into the tradition you cant really appreciate it. Its not elitist to not appreciate something that you dont trully understand.

As far as Canada getting a pro team, the big thing that i think is preventing it besides fan base, is weather.

It's more than him just not appreciating football, but belittling it. That's where the wannabe eurotrash comes in.

I never grew up with soccer but I can appreciate it as a sport to play and I can understand why people watch it. Belittling soccer in comparison would be just as bad as what Blackdog did.

Weather is irrelevant to Canada getting an NFL team. Any NFL team in Canada would have to play in a domed stadium, no questions asked.

Yea - I watch soccer from time to time. It's a sport and I love all sports. But it's still the lamest of sports. Not really, but you if you took the number of snot-noses who pretend there is something more briliant to it than meets the eye, and divided it by an integer representing actually excitement and quality of the game - you'd have a huge number.

[jester]

But what about cricket! A sport where the spectators can use as many calories as the players, where a game that goes on for FIVE DAYS ends in a tie, a game with meal breaks built in, now thats sport.......

[ft.niagara]

I think the reason I like football is it is easier to follow the ball, especially pass plays. When football is played well, it is a thing of beauty. I find it hard to follow the puck in hockey, it is so small and moves so quickly. Also, hockey has so many games. Soccar balls are seeable, but the scoring is so quick, infrequent, and unpredictable, that I loose interest. Besides, hitting a soccar ball with your head as a youth drives your IQ downward. Basketball scores too often. Also, a ten point lead is nothing in basketball. They all seem like scoring machines. Tennis on television isn't bad, ball viewable, and lots of action. Golf on television is interesting to those who play golf, IMO. Baseball has so many games, and is so slow. But football, there are so many variations and positions. It is the closest thing to gladitorial combat in the form of a game there is. In fact there more than a few people in wheel chairs for life because of football.