jbg Posted December 17, 2006 Report Posted December 17, 2006 Translation of article from a Spanish newspaper: "ALL EUROPEAN LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ" By Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly discovered a terrible truth - Europe died in Auschwitz. We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims. In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world for the better. The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned. And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims; who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride. They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime. Shut up in apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts. And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition. We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for hoping for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs. What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe. "For the record. " The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of the world population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes: Literature: 1988 - Najib Mahfooz. Peace: 1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat 1994 - Yaser Arafat Physics: 1990 - Elias James Corey 1999 - Ahmed Zewail Medicine: 1960 - Peter Brian Medawar 1998 - Ferid Mourad The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or about 0.02% of the world population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes: Literature: 1910 - Paul Heyse 1927 - Henri Bergson 1958 - Boris Pasternak 1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon 1966 - Nelly Sachs 1976 - Saul Bellow 1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer 1981 - Elias Canetti 1987 - Joseph Brodsky 1991 - Nadine Gordimer World Peace: 1911 - Alfred Fried 1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser 1968 - Rene Cassin 1973 - Henry Kissinger 1978 - Menachem Begin 1986 - Elie Wiesel 1994 - Shimon Peres 1994 - Yitzhak Rabin Physics: 1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer 1906 - Henri Moissan 1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson 1908 - Gabriel Lippmann 1910 - Otto Wallach 1915 - Richard Willstaetter 1918 - Fritz Haber 1921 - Albert Einstein 1922 - Niels Bohr 1925 - James Franck 1925 - Gustav Hertz 1943 - Gustav Stern 1943 - George Charles de Hevesy 1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi 1952 - Felix Bloch 1954 - Max Born 1958 - Igor Tamm 1959 - Emilio Segre 1960 - Donald A. Glaser 1961 - Robert Hofstadter 1961 - Melvin Calvin 1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau 1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz 1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman 1965 - Julian Schwinger 1969 - Murray Gell-Mann 1971 - Dennis Gabor 1972 - William Howard Stein 1973 - Brian David Josephson 1975 - Benjamin Mottleson 1976 - Burton Richter 1977 - Ilya P Economics: 1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson 1971 - Simon Kuznets 1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow 1975 - Leonid Kantorovich 1976 - Milton Friedman 1978 - Herbert A. Simon 1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein 1985 - Franco Modigliani 1987 - Robert M. Solow 1990 - Harry Markowitz 1990 - Merton Miller 1992 - Gary Becker 1993 - Robert Fogel Medicine: 1908 - Elie Metchnikoff 1908 - Paul Erlich 1914 - Robert Barany 1922 - Otto Meyerhof 1930 - Karl Landsteiner 1931 - Otto Warburg 1936 - Otto Loewi 1944 - Joseph Erlanger 1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser 1945 - Ernst Boris Chain 1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller 1950 - Tadeus Reichstein 1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman 1953 - Hans Krebs 1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann 1958 - Joshua Lederberg 1959 - Arthur Kornberg 1964 - Konrad Bloch 1965 - Francois Jaco b 1965 - Andre Lwoff 1967 - George Wald 1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg 1969 - Salvador Luria 1970 - Julius Axelrod 1970 - Sir Bernard Katz 1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman 1975 - Howard Martin Temin 1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg 1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow 1978 - Daniel Nathans 1980 - Baruj Benacerraf The Jews are not demonstrating with their dead on the streets, yelling and chanting and asking for revenge; the Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non-Muslims. The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics; the Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels. The Jews don't have the economic strength of petroleum, nor the possibilities to force the world's media to see "their side" of the question. Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Higgly Posted December 17, 2006 Report Posted December 17, 2006 Translation of article from a Spanish newspaper: "ALL EUROPEAN LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ" By Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly discovered a terrible truth - Europe died in Auschwitz. We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims. In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world for the better. The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned. And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims; who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride. They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime. Shut up in apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts. And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition. We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for hoping for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs. What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe. "For the record. " The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of the world population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes: Literature: 1988 - Najib Mahfooz. Peace: 1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat 1994 - Yaser Arafat Physics: 1990 - Elias James Corey 1999 - Ahmed Zewail Medicine: 1960 - Peter Brian Medawar 1998 - Ferid Mourad The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or about 0.02% of the world population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes: Literature: 1910 - Paul Heyse 1927 - Henri Bergson 1958 - Boris Pasternak 1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon 1966 - Nelly Sachs 1976 - Saul Bellow 1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer 1981 - Elias Canetti 1987 - Joseph Brodsky 1991 - Nadine Gordimer World Peace: 1911 - Alfred Fried 1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser 1968 - Rene Cassin 1973 - Henry Kissinger 1978 - Menachem Begin 1986 - Elie Wiesel 1994 - Shimon Peres 1994 - Yitzhak Rabin Physics: 1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer 1906 - Henri Moissan 1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson 1908 - Gabriel Lippmann 1910 - Otto Wallach 1915 - Richard Willstaetter 1918 - Fritz Haber 1921 - Albert Einstein 1922 - Niels Bohr 1925 - James Franck 1925 - Gustav Hertz 1943 - Gustav Stern 1943 - George Charles de Hevesy 1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi 1952 - Felix Bloch 1954 - Max Born 1958 - Igor Tamm 1959 - Emilio Segre 1960 - Donald A. Glaser 1961 - Robert Hofstadter 1961 - Melvin Calvin 1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau 1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz 1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman 1965 - Julian Schwinger 1969 - Murray Gell-Mann 1971 - Dennis Gabor 1972 - William Howard Stein 1973 - Brian David Josephson 1975 - Benjamin Mottleson 1976 - Burton Richter 1977 - Ilya P Economics: 1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson 1971 - Simon Kuznets 1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow 1975 - Leonid Kantorovich 1976 - Milton Friedman 1978 - Herbert A. Simon 1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein 1985 - Franco Modigliani 1987 - Robert M. Solow 1990 - Harry Markowitz 1990 - Merton Miller 1992 - Gary Becker 1993 - Robert Fogel Medicine: 1908 - Elie Metchnikoff 1908 - Paul Erlich 1914 - Robert Barany 1922 - Otto Meyerhof 1930 - Karl Landsteiner 1931 - Otto Warburg 1936 - Otto Loewi 1944 - Joseph Erlanger 1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser 1945 - Ernst Boris Chain 1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller 1950 - Tadeus Reichstein 1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman 1953 - Hans Krebs 1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann 1958 - Joshua Lederberg 1959 - Arthur Kornberg 1964 - Konrad Bloch 1965 - Francois Jaco b 1965 - Andre Lwoff 1967 - George Wald 1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg 1969 - Salvador Luria 1970 - Julius Axelrod 1970 - Sir Bernard Katz 1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman 1975 - Howard Martin Temin 1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg 1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow 1978 - Daniel Nathans 1980 - Baruj Benacerraf The Jews are not demonstrating with their dead on the streets, yelling and chanting and asking for revenge; the Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non-Muslims. The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics; the Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels. The Jews don't have the economic strength of petroleum, nor the possibilities to force the world's media to see "their side" of the question. Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems. Not a Pole, Roma, Handicapped or Gay in the list. So much for ALL EUROPEAN LIFE... And then there is the ... DIED IN AUSCHWITZ part. I couldn't help but notice that you cite Menachem Begin, Saul Bellow, and Yitzhak Rabin (who was killed by a Jewish Israeli terrorist) ... Nice resurrection. You might also cite the number of Nobel prizes of other third world cultures. O wait. Many of them are not the target du jour! Better be careful! You can polarize or you can understand. What's it gonna be, boy? Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
jbg Posted December 18, 2006 Author Report Posted December 18, 2006 You can polarize or you can understand. What's it gonna be, boy? DO NOT call me "boy". Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
sunsettommy Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 Higgly how about discussion on the topic? What about the spanish writers viewpoint about a civilized culture being replaced by a mostly uncivilized culture that comes in its place? Quote Visit GLOBAL WARMING SKEPTICS
Black Dog Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 It's amazing: the words of the tormentors coming from the lips of their victims. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 This post is WAY over the line and ridiculous to boot: Muslims; who brought us stupidity and ignorance, ... and lack of tolerance, I'm reporting it. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Black Dog Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 This post is WAY over the line and ridiculous to boot:Muslims; who brought us stupidity and ignorance, ... and lack of tolerance, I'm reporting it. It also sounds familiar Quote
jbg Posted December 18, 2006 Author Report Posted December 18, 2006 This post is WAY over the line and ridiculous to boot:Muslims; who brought us stupidity and ignorance, ... and lack of tolerance, I'm reporting it. It was a quote from an article. That is certainly not my view. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
August1991 Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 It's amazing: the words of the tormentors coming from the lips of their victims.BD, is this your idea of sophisticated commentary? "We're all equal in God's eyes."Has your post-modern/multi-culti/politically correct version of the scientific method made it impossible for you to compare two different cultures/religions/societies/worldviews? BD, are you capable of making the distinction between a member of the Hell's Angels and some guy in a denim jacket on a Harley? Or to you, are they the same because it is wrong to discriminate? ---- Higgly, did you have to copy the whole OP? (I mean, it was a list of names.) Quote
Black Dog Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 BD, is this your idea of sophisticated commentary? "We're all equal in God's eyes."Has your post-modern/multi-culti/politically correct version of the scientific method made it impossible for you to compare two different cultures? BD, can you make the distinction between a member of the Hell's Angels and some guy in a denim jacket on a Harley? Or to you, are they the same because it is wrong to discriminate? The issue isn't the comparison between two different cultures. It's the fact that the argument boils down to "The Holocaust was bad. We need another Holocaust." Or maybe you don't see the incongruity of lamenting the elimination of one culture and then speaking of another in the exact same terms used to justify the elimination he laments? Or maybe we're all foolish for talking about a screed that, if it were penned about any other race, would be roundly and universally denounced as racist filth. Incidentally, if the authour is Spanish, he's a little late on the whole Jew thing. Spain expelled all their Jews in 1492. Quote
August1991 Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 This post is WAY over the line and ridiculous to boot:Muslims; who brought us stupidity and ignorance, ... and lack of tolerance, I'm reporting it. jbg didn't write this nor did he claim to. He has merely posted a "translated article" by "Sebastian Vilar Rodrige". There is good reason to believe this article is a fraud of some sort.Many bloggers have attempted to discover the truth. IMV, the opinion expressed in the article is worth discussion if only because it is all too common in Europe today. Quote
Who's Doing What? Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 It's amazing: the words of the tormentors coming from the lips of their victims. I agree. As I was reading the article I couldn't help but notice that if you replaced "Muslim" with "Jew" and "Jew/Jewish" with "German" it could have been one of Hitler's own tirades. Quote Harper differed with his party on some key policy issues; in 1995, for example, he was one of only two Reform MPs to vote in favour of federal legislation requiring owners to register their guns. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/election/bio/harper.html "You've got to remember that west of Winnipeg the ridings the Liberals hold are dominated by people who are either recent Asian immigrants or recent migrants from eastern Canada: people who live in ghettoes and who are not integrated into western Canadian society." (Stephen Harper, Report Newsmagazine, January 22, 2001)
Michael Hardner Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 jbg didn't write this nor did he claim to. He has merely posted a "translated article" by "Sebastian Vilar Rodrige". There is good reason to believe this article is a fraud of some sort. Certain types of literature are illegal to post in Canada. This article is arguably over the line, in that it attempts to scapegoat individuals that belong to a certain religion. It's not good fodder for any discussion, except possibly a discussion on hate literature - in which case one could refer to it without quoting it directly. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
August1991 Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 The issue isn't the comparison between two different cultures. It's the fact that the argument boils down to "The Holocaust was bad. We need another Holocaust." Or maybe you don't see the incongruity of lamenting the elimination of one culture and then speaking of another in the exact same terms used to justify the elimination he laments? Or maybe we're all foolish for talking about a screed that, if it were penned about any other race, would be roundly and universally denounced as racist filth.Where is there any reference to another holocaust? I saw at the end of the article an admonishment for Muslims to seek general education to broaden their worldview.With that said, I won't be painted into a defence of this article if only because it is foolish to make broad, negative generalizations of millions of people. I'm not even certain education will make a difference. The 19 fanatics who flew those planes in 2001 were well educated. The suicide bombers in London were apparently westernized. Osama bin Laden's sister is a fashion model in New York City. So, sorry, I don't have an immediate answer. But I also think that simply deleting this thread because it expresses "racist filth" is no solution at all. Quote
Black Dog Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 Where is there any reference to another holocaust? I saw at the end of the article an admonishment for Muslims to seek general education to broaden their worldview. I don't think that was part of the original article. If it was though, it would go against the grain of his complaint about "people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs." No there was no specific call for genocide. But, as the Nazis demonstrated so ably, its a short trip from talking about degeneate, criminal filth and sending them to the ovens. Quote
Rue Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 You can polarize or you can understand. What's it gonna be, boy? DO NOT call me "boy". JBG he didn't put the three letters and hyphen before the word because in my opinion he would prefer to use code words. What do you expect. Laugh it off. We know what is behind the sentiment. Don't know about you, but if there is one thing I have learned, there are always going to be certain people who are cowards and hide behind words and run screaming for help when they don't like what someone says to them, but be equally as quick to dish out abusive dirt. The difference is you and I can be men and take it and consider it for what it is and who it comes from. JBG my only problem with your thread is I don't like Jews being used in a way to insult Muslims. I don't like to see the memory of our suffering used indirectly by anyone to put down Muslims. That aint right. Muslims went to Europe the same reason we did-looking for work. They are trying their best. You know there are many good Muslims working hard and trying to do what is best for their families and we Jews understand that and applaud it. My problem is that it gives ammunition for people who do not like Jews to respond in the same manner only escalating things. The challenge in trying to educate non Jews about Jewish history is using methods of communication that can't be twisted back to engage in hatred of others. Immigrants are the same. They just want what's best for their families. Quote
kimmy Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 The issue isn't the comparison between two different cultures. It's the fact that the argument boils down to "The Holocaust was bad. We need another Holocaust." Or maybe you don't see the incongruity of lamenting the elimination of one culture and then speaking of another in the exact same terms used to justify the elimination he laments? Or maybe we're all foolish for talking about a screed that, if it were penned about any other race, would be roundly and universally denounced as racist filth. I think the point was not so much "we could use some genocide to thin these guys out a little", but more along the lines that Europe's collective guilt over the Nazi holocaust has caused Europe to embrace multiculturalism to an absurd degree. This post is WAY over the line and ridiculous to boot:Muslims; who brought us stupidity and ignorance, ... and lack of tolerance, Indeed. Muslims have brought us stupidity, ignorance, intolerance... and shawarma. I jest. However, I don't think the point is as outrageous as is being made out. Like, as much as we like to spout platitudes like "diversity makes us stronger!" ...in the case of our Muslim community, I'm having a hard time seeing how. In Canada, we've seen first-hand examples of stupidity, intolerance, and ignorance from the mouths of Mohammed Al-Masry of the Canadian Islamic Congress, or Sheikh Younus Kathrada of the Dar al Madinah mosque in Vancouver, or the Khadr family. We've seen stupidity, ignorance, and intolerance in action in the form of that dumbass who got his ass shot up in Chechnya, or that tool from Montreal who tried to smuggle a bomb into Seattle, or the alleged terror plot in Toronto. Maybe it's just a few bad apples. (Europe, of which the author was speaking, has had more than a few bad apples, they've had a considerable number of bad apples in recent years. Race riots, rape-gangs, and home-grown terrorists seem to be the result of Europe's Muslim experience.) What's positive that the Muslim immigrant community has brought to Canada? I mean, I know that "stupidity, ignorance, and intolerance" isn't a fair description of the Muslim community as a whole (although it certainly descrivbes an element within that community) but at the same time I'm not sure of anything Muslims have contributed to Canada that shows how "multiculturalism makes us all richer" either. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
Black Dog Posted December 18, 2006 Report Posted December 18, 2006 I think the point was not so much "we could use some genocide to thin these guys out a little", but more along the lines that Europe's collective guilt over the Nazi holocaust has caused Europe to embrace multiculturalism to an absurd degree. If that's the point, it's bogus. Muslim immigration was a product of the shortage of manpower that resulted from the slaughter od the last world war. The rebuilding nations needed cheap labour, and while they were perfectly willing to open the doors, they weren't about to go so far as to actually accept them as equals. In Canada, we've seen first-hand examples of stupidity, intolerance, and ignorance from... We have examples of stupidity, intolerance and ignorance from many people from many ethnicities and creeds. Europe, of which the author was speaking, has had more than a few bad apples, they've had a considerable number of bad apples in recent years. Race riots, rape-gangs, and home-grown terrorists seem to be the result of Europe's Muslim experience.) And what has been the Muslim European experience? I don't think the image of naive, "enlightened" Europeans throwing their doors open and welcoming the swarthy hordes (per Mark Steyn) is accurate: Europe, after all, wrote the definitive chapters on intoleerance and xenophobia, there's little to suggest attitudes have changed all that much since Hitler rose to power on the same sentiments expressed above. Quote
jbg Posted December 19, 2006 Author Report Posted December 19, 2006 This post is WAY over the line and ridiculous to boot: Muslims; who brought us stupidity and ignorance, ... and lack of tolerance, I'm reporting it. It also sounds familiar I make no claim to originality. You're probably not able to figure that out, given that I'm speaking English and you're speaking Canadian. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Black Dog Posted December 19, 2006 Report Posted December 19, 2006 You're probably not able to figure that out, given that I'm speaking English and you're speaking Canadian. You're so proud of that gag. Boy oh boy, that must be a real knee-slapper, us spelling words with the letter "u" where you do not. I'll wager you wake up at night giggling at your own wit. Hey, tell us more: like how we say "oot" and "aboot". I mae no claim to originality. You ain't kidding. You've posted pretty much the same thing more than 1,800 times. Quote
jbg Posted December 19, 2006 Author Report Posted December 19, 2006 JBG my only problem with your thread is I don't like Jews being used in a way to insult Muslims. I don't like to see the memory of our suffering used indirectly by anyone to put down Muslims. That aint right. I always appreciate your thoughtful posts. I see nothing wrong, however, in comparing two cultures, one exceedingly successful at everything but reproduction, one successful mainly at reproduction. Further, I believe that Europe, when it made its collective decision to incinerate the Jews, reaped the wind. Now, to the extent that a good percentage (and as I will make clear below not a majority) of the second-generation Muslims seethe with hatred for their hosts, the Europeans got what they deserved. Muslims went to Europe the same reason we did-looking for work. They are trying their best. You know there are many good Muslims working hard and trying to do what is best for their families and we Jews understand that and applaud it.*snip* Immigrants are the same. They just want what's best for their families. No question about it. The immigrants themselves knew what life was like back from where they came and wanted out. The problem is that the Muslim schools, where their children, as a practical matter, are educated, are funded by the Wahabis. People educated there frequently do not want good things for their countries. While I respect the immigrants' struggles and intentions (I am only third/fourth generation myself) I'd have more respect if they joined European societies they lived in, and practiced Islam on their spare time. The challenge in trying to educate non Jews about Jewish history is using methods of communication that can't be twisted back to engage in hatred of others. If someone wants to foment hatred they'll find a way to. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
cybercoma Posted December 19, 2006 Report Posted December 19, 2006 This post is WAY over the line and ridiculous to boot: Muslims; who brought us stupidity and ignorance, ... and lack of tolerance, I'm reporting it. jbg didn't write this nor did he claim to. He has merely posted a "translated article" by "Sebastian Vilar Rodrige". There is good reason to believe this article is a fraud of some sort.Many bloggers have attempted to discover the truth. IMV, the opinion expressed in the article is worth discussion if only because it is all too common in Europe today. It's ok to post the most bigoted stuff I can find as long as I don't write it myself? Come on August, I think more of you than that. Quote
Black Dog Posted December 19, 2006 Report Posted December 19, 2006 I see nothing wrong, however, in comparing two cultures, one exceedingly successful at everything but reproduction, one successful mainly at reproduction. There is, of course, a profound difference that renders the comparison invalid. Muslim immigration to Europe has been a reality for less than 100 years. In contrast, the Jews of Europe, until the 1930's, had been ensconced there since medieval times: time to establish enclaves, cement their role in society and grow with Europe. Despite their continued marginalization and oppression they were European. Thus the comparison seems more than a bit skewed. Quote
August1991 Posted December 19, 2006 Report Posted December 19, 2006 This is an extremely sensitive topic and I think rue has put a finger on the key sensitivity: JBG my only problem with your thread is I don't like Jews being used in a way to insult Muslims. I don't like to see the memory of our suffering used indirectly by anyone to put down Muslims. That aint right.Muslims went to Europe the same reason we did-looking for work. They are trying their best. You know there are many good Muslims working hard and trying to do what is best for their families and we Jews understand that and applaud it. Comparisons to the Holocaust are fraught with misunderstanding. This article plays into the claim of the "progressive Left" (a card BD has played) that if we stand up to radical Islamists, we are one step away from being Nazis. I'll take the risk of a comparison because I think we in the West must find a way to confront this violent medievalism without injuring our liberal beliefs or sensitivities. Allow me a few digressions. I recently watched Schindler's List with a 15 year old. Faced with the various and obvious naive questions ("why didn't they run away?"), I recall explaining what amounts to my only way to understand how the Nazis did this (or how Europeans tolerated slavery for so long). They didn't see Jews, gypsies or Africans as people. They perceived them as animals (Lenin described peasants as the most intelligent animals in the farmyard). I know there are psychopaths in the world and I know too that there are people who can blindly follow orders (particularly when someone with an established reputation abuses that good reputation by assuming responsibility). But I have met and talked to too many people who view other races as simply another species. It is one thing to be racist but it is another to view an entire race as some kind of animal, like a cat or a dog. This is my sad conclusion about the Holocaust and slavery. The hallmark of a liberal education is critical thought or the ability to be an intelligent skeptic: the scientific method. I don't think any liberal Westerner considers Muslims as any less human than they themselves are - even Jean-Marie Le Pen. There is simply no comparison between the way Nazis perceived Jews and the way modern Westerners perceive Islamic fundamentalists. That begs the question of how we in the West perceive these Islamic fundamentalists. Some compare them to Christian fundamentalists and claim that all religious fanatics are dangerous. Others focus on the apparent violence of Islamic fundamentalists (to which some respond that the violence is a reaction to Western oppression). "Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez" seems to put emphasis on their backwardness. For myself, I think we face a medieval scourge, ignorant of modern thought, but capable of using modern technology. Henry VIII with a machine gun. (Riyadh has amongst the most sophisticated medical hospitals on the planet.) Margaret Thatcher once said, and I paraphrase, "We in the West are perfectly entitled to defend our liberal values. We have no reason to feel embarrassed about them or discount them." In a similar sense, I recall a conversation I had in Bulgaria during Soviet times. I was discussing how the French in North America coped with British colonisation for two centuries and my Bulgarian friend explained how Bulgarians coped with Islamic colonisation for five centuries. I was shocked with her final phrase, "Well, the British have a superior culture but Turkish culture was inferior to Bulgarian culture at the time." Now, I am no longer willing to accept any culture, religion or worldview as a legitimate expression of existence. For example, IMV, a culture/society/religion is backward if it requires a woman to be covered head to toe in public. If the culture goes about its business quietly without disturbing anybody else, I might say live and let live. But if this culture takes a violent stance, then I feel a line has been crossed. There is, of course, a profound difference that renders the comparison invalid. Muslim immigration to Europe has been a reality for less than 100 years. In contrast, the Jews of Europe, until the 1930's, had been ensconced there since medieval times: time to establish enclaves, cement their role in society and grow with Europe. Despite their continued marginalization and oppression they were European. Thus the comparison seems more than a bit skewed.BD, you are implicitly admitting that modern Jewish culture is more worthy than modern Islamic culture since you note that Jews have had a longer exposure than Muslims to Europeans. I would dispute that specific claim (Muslims have been in Europe for a millenia) but I'm more surprised that you would suggest that exposure to Europeans implies sophistication.BD, what do you mean by "grow with Europe"? Quote
jbg Posted December 19, 2006 Author Report Posted December 19, 2006 There is, of course, a profound difference that renders the comparison invalid. Muslim immigration to Europe has been a reality for less than 100 years. I will admit that Europe was about as open to integrating Muslims as it was to integrating Jews, i.e. not very. This may account for the far more disastrous interactions in Europe than in the US or Canada. Of course, the fact that Europe shares a land mass with the Muslim lands ensures that Muslims cannot really be kept out, the same way that the US cannot really exclude Mexicans. The difference, of course, is that once Mexicans learn English they're part of our culture. The differences between Muslim and Western cultures are far more profound, and application of European freedoms in Muslim cultures would destroy those cultures within the immigrant enclaves. An example is the status of women. If women establish social equality, it would require major readjustments in the functioning of Muslim families. Even Christian and Jewish family structures are staggering with the (totally correct) conditions of equality. In contrast, the Jews of Europe, until the 1930's, had been ensconced there since medieval times: time to establish enclaves, cement their role in society and grow with Europe. Despite their continued marginalization and oppression they were European. Thus the comparison seems more than a bit skewed. We were quite European and if we stayed, as it turned out, eternally so. In the form of ashes of Nazi crematories. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
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