Palestine: Peace or Apartheid

[ScottSA]

Not to be insulting or anything, but it sure is fun watching figleaf getting thrashed.

[Figleaf]

Not to be insulting or anything, but it sure is fun watching figleaf getting thrashed.

How would you know?

[ScottSA]

Not to be insulting or anything, but it sure is fun watching figleaf getting thrashed.

How would you know?

Good retort. Very witty, very droll.

[Figleaf]

Not to be insulting or anything, but it sure is fun watching figleaf getting thrashed.

How would you know?

Good retort. Very witty, very droll.

How would you know?

[buffycat]

figleaf - Rue is full of it. His site is not hamas, he is muddying the waters - I imagine that is his purpose here.

I would also add that he can't read well, since it was I who mentioned that Hamas was originally funded and backed by the Israeli Admin to counter the PLO. This is simple historical fact - but oh no, Rue and his kind will have no part in any negative towards the one and only pure as driven snow state: Israel.

*cough*

Anyway, anyone can simply google it and look it all up for themselves. Or they can go to a library and peek at the records - it's there. Do it soon though, since history is being re-written daily.

Oh - and why bother even arguing with ScottSSA? The guy is a troll - he never has anything worthwhile to say - just slurs and insults! Has he no idea how much his posts betray him?

*ack*

Oh, yeah and even wiki (whom I don't usually cite - but so many on the extremist west do) states that originally Hamas was funded by Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Sort of like how now, both the US and Israel (is there any difference?!) are okay with arming Fatah!

Divide and conquer!

[M.Dancer]

Oh, yeah and even wiki (whom I don't usually cite - but so many on the extremist west do) states that originally Hamas was funded by Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Sort of like how now, both the US and Israel (is there any difference?!) are okay with arming Fatah!

Divide and conquer!

Could you actually quote the relevent passage....I don't have time to read between the lines and at first glance I see nothing backing up the funding claim

[buffycat]

Could you actually quote the relevent passage....I don't have time to read between the lines and at first glance I see nothing backing up the funding claim

From wiki:

Read under 'Funding'. Though as stated, wiki is often filled with errors.

Here's another article from American Conservative:

"http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_02_12/article4.html"

But there is something bitterly ironic in Israel’s support for Fatah against Hamas—and it should be a lesson to governments everywhere that meddle in other states’ affairs. In the past, Israel supported Hamas against Fatah. Indeed, in the 1970s and 80s, Israel played a not insignificant role in encouraging Hamas’s emergence in the belief that such an Islamist group might help rupture support for the mass nationalist movement of Fatah. Twenty years later, Israel has switched sides, hoping that it can encourage Fatah to see off Hamas. It wants “moderate” Palestinians to take on the “extremist” Palestinians it helped create. Like America and Britain before it—both of whom have supported and armed Islamist movements in the Middle East in attempts to undermine secular nationalist parties—Israel is learning the hard way that it is one thing to let radical Islamists off the leash but quite another thing to rein them back in again. If you make monsters, you shouldn’t be surprised if they come back to bite you.

*snip*

More:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context...ilitancy_202701

"Following the Six Day War, Israel takes over the administration of the West Bank and Gaza. Whereas Egyptian President Gamal Abddul Nasser had been tough on Islamist militants (see 1954 - 1970), Israel is much more permissive. One of their first actions is to release Sheikh Ahmed Yassin from prison. Yassin, a charismatic radical Islamist and the future founder of Hamas had been jailed in 1965 during one of Nasser’s crackdowns. [Dreyfuss, 2005, pp. 195] David Shipler, a former New York Times reporter, later recounts that he was told by the military governor of the Gaza Strip, Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, that the Israeli government had financed the Islamic movement to couteract the PLO and the communists.According to Martha Kessler, a senior analyst for the CIA, “we saw Israel cultivate Islam as a counterweight to Palestinian nationalism.” Yassin will later form Hamas as the military arm of his organizations (see 1987). [Dreyfuss, 2005, pp. 195, 197, 198]"

*snip*

There are others, it's pretty common knowledge - sort of the like the funding of the Mujahideen by Western sources during the Russians' ill fated attempt to pacify Afghanistan.

The sad thing is that Israel claims she never has anyone to talk to wrt peace - the truth of the matter is she always has - she just hasn't liked what she heard, nor does she want to give up the stolen lands of the illegal settlements - thus rendering impossible any kind of realistic state for the Palestinian people.

It takes two to tango.

[M.Dancer]

So in other words, there's no proof, just an outrageous claim by some sensationalist newspapers....

[Rue]

The purpose Figleaf was to expose you as lacking any credibility...

Well that backfired on you! Your record on this thread so far includes pretending a Zionist Organization of America website is run by Hamas, and being caught in a blatant contradiction about how Hamas came to be.

and showing wyoumade false misrepresentations and inferences that the Islamic Association and Hamas are the same and that Israel funded or created Hamas.

You Lie. I made no such representations.

The point Figleaf was to show you smeared Israel with a misrepresentation ...

You Lie. I didn't make any representation on this subject, I simply asked what you were trying to say.

The point is you Figleaf are so insincere you are willing to twist the truth ...

The record on this thread is very clear that it is you who twists the truth.

... you can't possibly handle the fact that Israel could and did support people who hated...

But actually, I find that completely possible.

Why do you feel the need to falsely impute non-existent positions or emotions to me?

Don't you understand that doing so is a type of dishonestly?

Spit it out Figleaf. Show us what I provided was drivel.

The problem with your assertions has already been noted. You may review the thread if you are still curious.

Show us your facts to suggesting Israel financed and created Hamas.

I don't know, and have not asserted, that Israel financed Hamas. Your intense emotionalism on this topic evidently leave you unable to grasp the comments of your interlocutors.

I provided you articles Figleaf by Hamas explaining the origins ...

Actually, the website you said was Hamas' belonged to a completely different organization. This is a problem you have not yet answered.

... it is your m.o. to smeasr anyone youd isagree with as a Zionist...

You Lie.

In fact, I don't even regard it as a 'smear' for someone to be a Zionist. There are lots of perfectly acceptable ways and means to go about being Zionist or supporting Zionism.

Spit it out Figleaf show us one thing I said that is contradictory.

Already did. Q.V. above.

You got caught again Figleaf making false inferences ...

Quote one for me then.

the only thing you caught Figleaf was another dose of your transparent anti-semitism

Lie. Quote any comment in my entire posting history that contains anti-semitism. If you can't then it is proven that you have lied, in a dirty shitty way, AGAIN.

... and its anti-semitic Figleaf because you cling to a stereotype of Israelis as being manipulative, sinister and dishonest which flows from the image of the Jew as a behind the scenes wheeling and dealing manipulator.

Yet another dirty lie.

Here is the point Figleaf and no amount of your intellectual cowardice can change that fact-Israel and the Islamic Alliance did good things and were able to achieve peace and good things for both their people when there was no terrorism.

The intellectual cowardice is all on you, making up and imputing positions that other posters don't hold and have never said is dishonest and the sign of a weak argument.

Now back away. You do not amuse me.

Too bad. Your misrepresentations and prevarictions, your walls of dilatory text, and your lies about other posters don't amuse me.

So now Figleaf in between howls of self-righteous indignation you suggest you never inferred Israel supported Hamas or inferred the Islamic Association and Hamas were the same? AHahahah. A new way to use vasoline. Better break the news to the rest of your posse.

There is an old "Zionist" expression that may be appropriate here and it says; " the more someonme tells you what a virgin they are , the more tangible proof you are getting that they have a bad case of syphilis they are trying to spread.

[Figleaf]

So now Figleaf ... you suggest you never inferred Israel supported Hamas or inferred the Islamic Association and Hamas were the same?

There is no point in indulging your mischaracterizations. What I wrote is all available for review. I asked you what you were saying about the relationship between the Islamic Association and Hamas. At no point did I assert anything about it.

Go ahead and ACTUALLY QUOTE something that shows otherwise, if you can. Otherwise we'll chalk this whole series of your diatribes up as Just More Rue Lies.

Speaking of which, how about you explain why you suggested the ZOA website at www.palestinefacts.com is connected to Hamas when that is clearly false.

[Rue]

"....it was I who mentioned that Hamas was originally funded and backed by the Israeli Admin to counter the PLO. ..."

And it was Figleaf and Higgly who couldn't resist getting in on the giggling and repeating what you said. But now that you have outed yourself welcome. The Three Stooegs are fully outed. Which one are you, Moe?

"This is simple historical fact "

Well "simple" yes, historic fact, no.

"Anyway, anyone can simply google it and look it all up for themselves. "

Perhaps if you did you wouldn't write in and prove you have no idea what you are saying by stating the above.

"Or they can go to a library and peek at the records - it's there. Do it soon though, since history is being re-written daily."

Well yes you are doing a half-assed job at trying to rewrite history to pretend

the Islamic Association and Hamas are one and the same, and that Israel created and financed Hamas, and that Israel financed and supported Hamas's military wing and its terrorist activities.

"Oh, yeah and even wiki (whom I don't usually cite - but so many on the extremist west do) states that originally Hamas was funded by Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas"

So can you read what you quoted? Let's try help you read what you quoted;

"Created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada...."

"The military wing of Hamas, formed in 1992, is known as the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades to commemorate Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, the father of modern Arab resistance, "

"However, various sources, among them United Press International,[49] Le Canard enchaîné, Bill Baar, Gérard Chaliand[50] and L'Humanité[51] have highlighted that Hamas' early growth — before its official founding and the creation of the military branch — had been supported by the Mossad as a "counterbalance to the Palestine Liberation Organization"

"Hamas' first use of suicide bombing occurred on April 16, 1993".

What you have done is evidence precisely the point I was making. You skip all the information that indicates when Hamas was founded or the fact its military or terrorist wing didn't come to power in 19922 or that the first suicide bombings by Hamas' terrorist wing was in 1993, and prior to that it was NOT engaged in terrorism or violence against Israel.

You ignore the time lines right in front of you that show your assumption of support couldn't have happened, and jump to a conclusion without reading the newspaper articles you think prove your assumption. Had you even bothered to read those article syou would see they at NO time sugested the suport was for guns or military activities.

More to the point Israel's support of Yashin did not start in 1987 and if you researched properly and educated yourself you would understand Hamas came about in 1987 but before that eYashin headed the Islamic Association and it was the Association Israel funded and continued to support not Hamas in 1987. After 1987 what is referred to as Israeli financial support of Hamas is an interchangeable phrase which if more accurately explained would in fact state Israel funded and supported not the actual Hamas organization, but the hospitals, schools and benevolent organizatoons of the non military or terrorist arm of Hamas. The money wasn't given to Hamas but directly to Hamas' schools, hospitals and organizations. That was done right out in the open by the Israeli military civil administration and deliberately out in the open as a propaganda attempt to show Palestinians if they refrained from violence Israel would help them.

Shin Bet and Mossad in fact continued to intercept any weapons going to the military wing of Hamas which until 1992, as in fact splinter cells, not a cohesive unit.

Get your "historic facts" right once and for all. Hamas came about in 1987.

Yashin existed prior to that and so did the Islamic Association which was a major Sunni organization in Lebanon and dates back to former Egptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser's efforts to unify the Arab world in 1964, with the Islamic Association's original identity the Association of the Worshipers of the Compassionate which then established the Islamic Association in Tripoli.

After the failed 1967 Arab attack against Israel, the Islamic Association and other Islamist groups frew and evolved and during Lebanon's civil war of 1975-1990), the Islamic Association's militia, was known as the Mujahidin.

It was Fathi Yakan, whoa dvocated Sayyid Qutb's radical brand of Islamist thought, who was the main person whos haped the Islamic Association's charter and beliefs. It was Yakan who joined with Sa'id Hawwa of Syria's Muslim Brethren as a result of the failed war fo 1967 who then called for a jihad against the Western and Israel. It was at that time The Islamic Association first formulated the idea that it needed to wipe out Israel and impose an Islamic order based on the Shari'a and a jihad.

Get your facts right. Hamas, means "zeal" or "fervour" in Arabic, and is an acronym for the full term Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya, or Islamic Resistance Movement. The group was founded as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt and offshoot of the Islamic Association. It was not and is not the Islamic Association and never was the Islamic Association and when you read get it straight that the fact that certain sources use the word Hamas and Islamic Association as if they are the same doesn't make it so just as saying the Muslim Brotherhood is Hamas is not true.

Here you want to read newspaper quotes out of context then make a point of understanding what it is you are jumping on and is assuming proves historic fact;

When Richard Sale, a UPI Correspondent, later paraphrased by the French press and others planted the story that former U.S. intelligence officials told him that , beginning in the late 1970s, that Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years....he was in fact repeating a a story given to him by Mossad precisely because Mossad wanted it made clear it was supporting non violent Palestinians and it was working.

Sale like the French press used the word Hamas and Islamic Association interchangeably just like the Western Press uses the word PLO interchangeably for over 180 organizations within that group all with different heads and ideologies. But you have to make it a point not to be lazy and find out what it is they were talking about and what in fact it is they said they were funding. Mossad never stated it paid for guns or funded guns. what they said and admitted is public fact. Their intercepting of guns going to terrorist cells in Hamas is a fact. They arrested and assassinated terrorist cell members in Hamas from 1987 onwords.

In your zeal to see what you want to see and act like a know it all you have ignored the time lines and figure it out that since Hamas did not exist before 1987 Israel couldn't possibly have supported terrorism prior to 1987, and when the Islamic Association morphed into Hamas, Israel continued to support its benevolent organizations but not Hamas directly and there is a huge difference funding charities and schools as opposed to you having the ignorance to suggest it was terrorists they were funding.

The hostoric facts and the time lines you ignore can not be rewritten and hide the fact that the terrorist wing of Hamas came about slowly through splinter cells and then was not organized in one unit until 1992 and did not and when it first engaged in terror against israel 1993.

You want to lecture people on going to the library and finding out for themselves the true facts, then do just that and have the integrity to admit you are mistaken.

It is an historic fact fully documented and on record if you bother to take the time to properly rad and learn that according to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement's spiritual leader, not with the name HAMS but as an Islamic Association with the name Al-Mujamma al Islami. Hamas did not come about until 1987 and its terrorist wing against Israel in fact came about in 1992.

You want facts-educate yourself.

From 1980-89, the CIA provided covert aid to Afghanistan in order to destabilise the Soviet Union-it financed and armed the most extreme of the mujahidin groups, including Osama bin Laden’s Al Qaeda network, fighting the Soviet backed Afghan regime in Kabul.

You want facts read the documents released in France by French writers showing the Deuxieme Bureau fundedIt is a fact Al Fatah and the PLO and turned on the Christian Maronites and Pelangiste in Lebanon in favour of the Islamic Association while Israel allied with the Christian Maronites.

It is a fact Hamas' military wing was never t anytime directly or indirectly funded by Israel but in fact by Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria and China. Hamas' military wing would never have accepted Israeli funding nor would Hamas directly and in fact the way Israel got its funding to the charities, schools and non profit organizations was through Palestinian civil servants and the teachers it employed-it could not give anything directly to a Hamas organization but had to do it through a Palestinian who was not in Hamas otherwise it would have been rejected.

Just because you want to pretend the Islamic Association is the same as Hamas does not make it so. Just because you want to pretend Israel supported Hamas when it in fact funded and supported its charities not Hamas can not be revised by you to suggest it funded Hamas or for that matter Hamas's military wing. This is precisely why I have contempt for you giggling, coughing triple threat. You think you have got it all figured out but you are too lazy to make an effort to find out what actually went down. By doing so you promulgate the crude anti-semitic charictature that Israelis are dishonest, and so evil they would even fund people who would kill their own citizens just to torment and abuse Palestinians. For that you are a displicable coward.

You are a coward because you smeer and piss upon the true historic fact and that is Palestinians and Israelis worked together and achieved peace and they can do it again and yes Israelis were willing to work with people who hated them if they did not engage in violence and they demonstrated that fact and this demonstrates they were not evil but wanted to do what was right even if it meant heping people who hated them.

Have the integrity to research what it was Israel funded before you get on this forum and try suggest it was terrorism because your read an article that says it funded Hamas so that can automatically mean terrorism.

Take the articles you think said Israel supported terrorism, go on take them and read them. Not one of those articles provided any information or proof that the support was for terrorism. Put up or shut up. Provide as the proof Israel funded terrorists or come back on this post and admit you are a poser and were mistaken.

Get it right. When the Intifada erupted in December 1987, the main source of resistance to Israel was NOT the Islamic Association or the PLO or Hamas (Hamas did not exist) it was in fact angry Palestinian workers and youth who did not have jobs. The Islamic Association which rpeached non violence now found itself faced with Al Fatah, Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front For the LIberation of Palestine who sat back and used these angry workers and youth to engage istreet violence and if need be die. Faced with children fighting and sometimes dying in the streets the Islamic Association feeling it was losing lose control of its people to the Unified National Leadership Union (UNLU), which the PLO had set up to co-ordinate and control the uprising, created the Islamic Resistance Movement, known by its acronym Hamas. This is not what Mossad or Shin Bet supported and in fact when this Islamic Resistance Movement was formed, Mossad and Shin Bet were very up front and blatant about funding schools, hospitals, municipal councils, not any military wing or resistance movement which has been inter-changeably mixed in as being one and the same with what Israel was supporting.

In fact as this militant wing began to evolve between 1987 and 1992, it did not engage in violence with Israel it fought Al Fatah and when you read articles that said Mossad and Shib Bet wanted to support Hamas against Al Fatah to destabilize of course it did but not by giving it guns that would be turned on Israel but with keeping Palestinians employed so they would not feel the need to riot and this is precisely why Mossand and Shin Bet intercepted gun shipments to any or all organizations and in fact Israel's funding of Hamas's scools and charities were done out in the open through its military civil administration and were never a secret.

Get it straight.

Hamas did not until its military wing in 1993 engaged in terrorism engage inaction against the Israeli occupation authorities and this is precisely why Israel did not interfere with Hamas-organised strikes. I

It is a fact that then Israeli Defence Minister Yitzhak Rabin even had talks with leading Islamists in the summer of 1988 including the non militant wing of Hamas BUT never spoke with any terrorist or person who at that time had stated he was engaged in terrorism against Israel.

It is the utmost dishonesty and it is cowardly to suggest any Israeli let alone Mossad or Shin Bet or any Israeli government official would knowingly pay or fund someone who would commit terrorism against its people.

Did you notice your friend Figleaf now denies he ever suggested Islamic Association and Hamas were the same and feigns innocence. Are you a virgin too? Seems to me all I see is a bad case of political herpes.

as an Islamic political party dedicated to national liberation in order to divert the energies of the Palestinian working class and channel it along religious lines.

Its Covenant, published in August 1988, essentially it’s founding charter, blended nationalism with religion and naked anti-Semitism.

[buffycat]

Hello Rue,

Do you really need to write a book with all your responses?

Also, I haven't stated that Israel has funded Hamas in it's terrorist agenda - only that he onset of Hamas was certainly supported by the Israeli Admin.

Really, get over yourself!

Oh and the insults say far more about you than they do me.

Have any more 'Hamas' funded websites to show us? Ha!

You are clearly one who believes that Israel can do no wrong. I think it is time that all realize, both Jews and Non-Jews alike, that Israel can do wrong - just as any other country. Illegal occupations, stealing land, violating human rights is not solely the dominion of others - Israel does her fair part as well.

Just because a person doesn't agree with one side doesn't mean she or he advocates use of terror by the others - this cuts both ways.

Okay, nuf said to you. It is clear you are blind to the atrocities which Israel commits daily. Happily, many of your countrymen and fellow Jews aren't.

http://www.btselem.org/English/

Great folks there - read a bit perhaps it will enlighten you.

Shalom,

Buffster

[Figleaf]

... it was Figleaf ... who couldn't resist getting in on the giggling and repeating what you said.

Rue lies, again.

The money wasn't given to Hamas but directly to Hamas' schools, hospitals and organizations.

But didn't yous say just a moment ago that there was NO funding or support for Hamas? This is the problem you're having, Rue... you can't seem to keep your story straight.

And on that subject, will you please explain why you said www.palestinefacts.com is a Hamas website, when in fact its registered owner is the Zionist Organization of America?

[Rue]

So now Figleaf ... you suggest you never inferred Israel supported Hamas or inferred the Islamic Association and Hamas were the same?

There is no point in indulging your mischaracterizations. What I wrote is all available for review. I asked you what you were saying about the relationship between the Islamic Association and Hamas. At no point did I assert anything about it.

Go ahead and ACTUALLY QUOTE something that shows otherwise, if you can. Otherwise we'll chalk this whole series of your diatribes up as Just More Rue Lies.

Speaking of which, how about you explain why you suggested the ZOA website at www.palestinefacts.com is connected to Hamas when that is clearly false.

No its not. Its the exact same information. Where the f..ck do you think it comes from. Man you are clueless.

[Rue]

... it was Figleaf ... who couldn't resist getting in on the giggling and repeating what you said.

Rue lies, again.

The money wasn't given to Hamas but directly to Hamas' schools, hospitals and organizations.

But didn't yous say just a moment ago that there was NO funding or support for Hamas? This is the problem you're having, Rue... you can't seem to keep your story straight.

And on that subject, will you please explain why you said www.palestinefacts.com is a Hamas website, when in fact its registered owner is the Zionist Organization of America?

Figleaf the last time I told you to stop playing the fool you reported me. what are you doing now? How does supporting Hamas charities mean supporting Hamas. Come on spit it out. You have been caught and exposed and I have been completely clear and precise in explaining that the support Israel gave was not to Hamas but benevolent organizations it started. There is a huge difference and if you want to pretend there isn't all you do is prove you are an intellectual coward. Figleaf you and your troika treid to perpetuate a lie that Israel supported terrorism and you try to pass off aid to charities, schools, and hospitals as aid to either Hamas or its terrorist wing and for that you have zero credibility and your continuing to deny you got caught is a joke.

[buffycat]

Figleaf you and your troika treid to perpetuate a lie that Israel supported terrorism ....

I don't think anyone actually did that here.

Though while we are on the subject - certainly she does! And not just in Israel. Get real. In fact she was just recently cought arming and training death squands in Columbia:

Here is the ynet article. for some reason I can't access Haaretz (been having trouble the last couple of days on and off - I wonder why?).

Anyhows - Israel is no better or worse than any other military power, she has here whereforall and could be an example - too bad she chooses to piss everyone in the nieghbourhood off eh? Bed's been made. Very sad - but by no means does that in any way represent all Jews worldwide. Just as the actions of the American/Canadian etc Admins represents all of their inhabitants.

But go ahead and keep contradicting yourself, it's entertaining to watch!

[Rue]

"

Hello Rue,"

Do you really need to write a book with all your responses?

Yes when people like you continue to promulgate misinformation I back up what I say and clearly point out where you are wrong. if you don't want the book don't promulgate misrepresentations. Now please provide the facts to show Israel supported Hamas directly other then indirectly aiding its charities, hospitals and shools through Palestinian government officials. Until you do you are a poser who has been caught in a lie.

"Also, I haven't stated that Israel has funded Hamas in it's terrorist agenda - only that he onset of Hamas was certainly supported by the Israeli Admin. "

what no more hacking and coughing? Your denial is as meaningful to me as Figleaf's. Next we will hear how Higgly was not giggly.

"Really, get over yourself!"

Well now. I like to write in and cough and giggle and tell everyone I am an expert about Hamas and Israel without ever doing any research or visiting the Gaza or West Bank or having any direct contact with Hamas, Islamic Association or Israelis. Right.

"Oh and the insults say far more about you than they do me."

Now our feelings our hurt. Its o.k. to smear Israelis with the pathetic transparent anti-semitic charictature that they are manipulative and willing to kill their own people, but oopsy now let's be gentle with you. Sounds like you like to fart in public but not be told you smell. Sorry no can do.

"Have any more 'Hamas' funded websites to show us? Ha!"

OOps we are giggling again are we. Well giggly, go on ANY of their friggin web-sites Go on and show me one thing from their web-sites that contradict what I quoted. Go one- just one thing. Come back and show us where on any Hamas web-site it says they accepted money from Israel for terrorist activities or weapons.

"Ha" to me is the sound of someone who when challenged to produce information can not.

"You are clearly one who believes that Israel can do no wrong. "

Nothing in my posts or life experience or in the deaths I have seen or people I have worked with has ever evidenced at any time I believe there is a right or wrong on either side of this conflict. The concept of right and wrong does not exist with people such as myself who have experienced terrorist attacks and seen children die. You picked the wrong person to smear as a Zionist shrill. More then that I will not dignfy with further response other then to see, Palestinians on the other side of the fence know me far better then you and know exactly what you are - a poser who neither they nor I have the time of day for precisely because you so damn naive.

"Illegal occupations, stealing land, violating human rights is not solely the dominion of others - Israel does her fair part as well"

well it didn't tale long to get back to the Israel bad bad bad mantra. Thanks. Never heard it before.

"Just because a person doesn't agree with one side doesn't mean she or he advocates use of terror by the others - this cuts both ways."

Well talk about trying to turn into jello and ooze our way out of our past comments. Sorry its like pus coming out of a wound only I won't lick it up.

"Okay, nuf said to you. It is clear you are blind to the atrocities which Israel commits daily. Happily, many of your countrymen and fellow Jews aren't. "

You are something. Now you, some pipsqueak who smears Israel and suggests Israelis fund terrorists to kill their fellow citizens are people you speak on behalf of! Man this is like a comedy routine. The little goyisha putz now suddenly lectures the evil Jew and calls on other Jews to join her. Did you not hear? We all blindly worship Israel. We are evil sinister Zionist conspirators. Get with it Goyisha Messiah you are so unkosher with your comments its to die for. Man you make ham abd butter sandwitches on wonder bread and then suggest its deli. Ahahah.

By the way Ms. Goyisha Moses, my record on this post in criticizing Israel is clear and consistent. And I love goys too even when they try shape shift into Jews.

Shalom,

Buffster

On a more serious note Muffy or is it Buffy, you amuse. Unlike Figleaf you are not deliberate. Your ignorance is refreshingly naive and innocent. Do me a favour, if you ever do meet a Jew here's a hint, just say hello the feigned waspy liberalism is so insincere it causes my circumsized skin to grow back.

[buffycat]

Since the majority of your above post is simply BS... I will address this 'chosen part':

" if you ever do meet a Jew here's a hint, just say hello the feigned waspy liberalism is so insincere it causes my circumsized skin to grow back. "

ROFLMFAO!!!

hahahahahhahahahah

Man you are the type of Jew who the rest a bad name!!

Would ya like to know how many of my own family perished in Auschwitz? Man are you a piece of work! do ya got giyus hooked up and running on your puter?! EEEKS !!

LOL LOL

FROLFFLMFAO

Shalom..

[DogOnPorch]

Would ya like to know how many of my own family perished in Auschwitz?

How many B_Cat? When did they arrive? When were they killed? How did you find out they died there?

I lost several in the Minsk Ghetto and a few more over at Babi Yar. One of my aunts in a "famous" Holocaust survivor who still does speaking tours.

----------------------------------------------------

Everyone who visits this place and has a few minutes to think comes to the same feeling, they start losing faith in people.

---Elena Filatova: Babi Yar

[Figleaf]

Figleaf the last time I told you to stop playing the fool you reported me. what are you doing now? How does supporting Hamas charities mean supporting Hamas.

Umm, are you serious? If you buy lemons at Loblaws, are you supporting Weston Ltd? Of course you are.

Come on spit it out.

Suck on it. See above.

You have been caught and exposed ...

That's demented.

Figleaf you and your troika [???] treid to perpetuate a lie that Israel supported terrorism and you try to pass off aid to charities, schools, and hospitals ...

You're lying again. I haven't said any of that. All I've done is challenge inconsistencies, illogic and discrepnacies in YOUR comments.

[Figleaf]

Speaking of which, how about you explain why you suggested the ZOA website at www.palestinefacts.com is connected to Hamas when that is clearly false.

No its not. Its the exact same information. Where the f..ck do you think it comes from. Man you are clueless.

Man, you are so full of it...

http://www.register.com/retail/whois_info....idate_challenge

Registrant:

ZOA

4 East 34th St 3rd Fl.

New York, NY 10016

US

Domain Name: PALESTINEFACTS.COM

Administrative Contact:

ZOA [email protected]

4 East 34th St 3rd Fl.

New York, NY 10016

US

212-481-1500 fax: 123 123 1234

Technical Contact:

Network Solutions, LLC. [email protected]

13861 Sunrise Valley Drive

Herndon, VA 20171

US

1-888-642-9675 fax: 571-434-4620

[Rue]

Speaking of which, how about you explain why you suggested the ZOA website at www.palestinefacts.com is connected to Hamas when that is clearly false.

No its not. Its the exact same information. Where the f..ck do you think it comes from. Man you are clueless.

Man, you are so full of it...

http://www.register.com/retail/whois_info....idate_challenge

Registrant:

ZOA

4 East 34th St 3rd Fl.

New York, NY 10016

US

Domain Name: PALESTINEFACTS.COM

Administrative Contact:

ZOA [email protected]

4 East 34th St 3rd Fl.

New York, NY 10016

US

212-481-1500 fax: 123 123 1234

Technical Contact:

Network Solutions, LLC. [email protected]

13861 Sunrise Valley Drive

Herndon, VA 20171

US

1-888-642-9675 fax: 571-434-4620

Once again you think you have a smoking gun Figleaf only it looks awful limp to me. Read the information. Its the same. It all comes from the same place. If you took the time to read it you would see it is all coming from the same place. Use your brain Figleaf. Stop jumping to conclusions based on the simplistic notion that the addresses you supplied because they are different necessarily use different information.

Ia m threw wasting my energy on you. Your brain can't respond to anything unless its black and white.

[Rue]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer I wrote this love passage for you on Al Fatah and I will say this point blank to you and not mention it again, I do not believe for a second you have relatives that died in Aushwitz. How is that for jumping to an unsubstantiated subjective conclusion. I admit my remarks seem anti-goy but they are firmly planted in cheek because you are in my opinion trying to shapeshift into a Jewish victim to avoid

responsibility for the kind of inneuendoes that come from simply joing on the anti-israel band-wagon.

Get something clear about me I do not and have never blindly supported Israel. I have been actively involved with Israelis and Jews and most importantly Palestinians and non Jews who like me do not see right or wrong, black or white in any government or people. We evolved past that when we saw each other's children blow up. Body parts defy any pathetic lame attempt at defining morality and who is good and evil.

If you have any common sense, go back and read. If you think I am a liar, go back and read. But don't just read what you want to hear. Push yourself past the comfort zone of good and bad guy or the world of Figleaf where information is black and white and when it comes from different addresses it must be different because its from Zionists.

Push yourself. Now I will back off. And trust me Muffy or Buffy or fluffy or what-ever your name is, with a name like Buffyusing the word Shalom comes across as a joke and its patronizing. Don't feign cultural tolerance with me. I can't stand it. You are pandering to the wrong Jew.Sspeak English or French because I am Canadian. don't take on this personna of pretending you are reaching out to Jews -its painfully idiotic. Its like listening to a white person trying to talk as if they are black. All it does is make you look like a fool.

Now let us avoid the smarminess and deal with the real solid issue:

Al Fatah which was led by Yasir Arafat joined the Palestinian Liberation Organization which was simply a coalition of terrorist cells that had one thing in common-the belief that Israel should be violently ended and turned into a Muslim state.

The Western Media has never when it has referred to the PLO taken the time to distinguish the numerous cells within it or the fact that each has a leader, its own ideology different from the others and other then the common belief in the destruction of Israel. Its been easier for the media just to call it all the PLO then be specific about it just as it has been easier for the media to use the word Hamas when in fact Hamas is yet another umbrella organization with a terrorist wing, and another unit which is in fact a handling its world wide financial fund-raising activities and then ear-marks certain funds to mosques, schools, hospitals or village councils. The mosques, schools, hospitals, village councils are simply lumped in and referred to as Hamas when they are in fact separate entities and many other then accepting the funding may not necessarily agree or support all or some of its ideology.

Of course when we look at the posts in this idiotic thread we were advised how Israel supported Hamas as if it meant they were sponsoring its terrorist activities and of course told Israel did this to manipulate and turn them against the PLO and then the same intellectual geniuses soon began telling us that Israel funded Al Fatah.

Anyone who understands the psyche of these organizations particularly Al Fatah or Hamas terrorist wing members must be having a good laugh at the arm-chair geniuses in this country who suggest it would take money from Israel let alone Mossad or Shin Bet to kill Israelis considering Shin Bet has been actively intercepting and destroying any weapons going to either organization or their predecessors or fellow cell member units since Israel began to exist and of course assassinate any of its terrorist organizers or cell leaders. Yes we are supposed to suspend any common sense and believe Israel would fund terrorist cells-the same cells it hunts down and assassinates. Makes perfect sense if of course you can only deal with the Middle East by whenever possible suggesting anything and everything is done by Israel no matter how idiotic such innuendoes amount to. The name of the game in this idiocy is to simply try pain Israel as evil, manipulative and so sinister it would pay its dead enemies to kill its own citizens.

Getting back to reality in 1968 the Al Fatah cell has always been a terrorist organization and so when Yasir Arafat posed for the Western Press as a peaceful moderate man in charge of the PLO which was portrayed as a parliamentary assembly of elected representatives-the fact that he was in fact the head of Al Fatah the largest terrorist cell in the PLO as well as “Chairman” of the PLO was not ever clarified by the press which simply used the word PLO and Al Fatah interchangeably and so no bizarre contradiction in the Chairman of the PLO claiming he was peaceful while heading Al Fatah which continued to engage in terror acts against Israel.

When Arafat showed up at the UN carrying a military weapon the media thought it was cute. Another Fidel Castro. Another cute revolutionary.

Al Fatah was expelled from Jordan following violent confrontations with Jordanian forces during the period 1970-71, beginning with Black September uprising in 1970. Arafat’s Al Fatah tried to assassinate King Hussein of Jordan and take over the country claiming Jordan was in fact Palestinian, which of course it always was. Hussein was able to stay in power as a result of a Beduin Army which is not native to Jordan and MI-6, British Intelligence which assured military supplies to the Beduin Army.

Later, when Israeli invaded Lebanon in 1982 trying to prevent terrorist attacks from what was then a coalition of anti-Israel terrorist cells called the Mujahadeen but in fact consisting of many splinter groups, some Sunni, some Shiite, some communist, Al Fatah had moved to Lebanon from Jordan where it was expelled.

It is a fact now substantiated by the terrorist group itself that Al Fatah at all times was financially funded by the former Soviet Union through the KGB, North Korea, China,

Saudi Arabia, other Gulf states and most importantly France and in particular operations through the Deuxieme Bureau which placed the French intelligence operations in bed with the KGB, Kroeans and Chinese and directly opposed to MI-6 operations in Jordan.

The US which had funded many terrorist cells related to the ones in Lebanon in Afghanistan to fight the Soviet Union also found itself caught up in funding terrorist cells.

The fact is the British, French, U.S., Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States and of course Iran have been the source of funding of all the terrorist cells not Israel. Israel caught in between a constantly changing landscape of alliances of today you are our ally tomorrow our enemy-does what it would have to, to survive, at any given time support whoever is non violent and fight whoever is engaged in violence against it and yes of course, if it can fund a non violent organization as a propaganda tool to encourage people to give up violence, it does it.

Israel directly gave military assistance not to any of these terrorist cells but its proxy ally in Lebanon the South Lebanese Army, an army of Maronite Christians. It has most certainly provided controlled intelligence to Morrocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Egypt and Turkey in regards to terrorist cells in the Middle East but that intelligence is carefully screened.

When The Lebanese was broke out in 1982 the PLO or in fact Al Fatah since the other splinter cells of the PLO stayed behind in Lebanon, did what it did in Jordan and does best-it ran, only this time to Tunisia.

There is a reason it went to Tunisia. Since 1964, Arafat had gained the protection of the French government. It was originally Charles DeGaulle, then Valerie Giscard D’Estaing, then Jaques Chirac who pursued the open agenda of the French government and its foreign policy to support the PLO and Al Fatah..

What had happened was drug politics at its best. Arafat came to create Al Fatah as a drug enforcement protection syndicate to protect the movement of brown heroin out of Afghanistan and Iran as well as Hash Hish from Lebanon which was sent to Marseilles, France and then on to the U.S.

Arafat’s drug operations made billions and of course he was placing his money in French and Swiss banks and laundering the money by investing heavily in French business.

France’s open association with the PLO then also gained it goodwill throughout the Arab world enabling it to sell its military weapons, chemical weapons and industrial technology basically shutting the rest of the West out as competitors.

France did have inter-relationships with German business in regards to chemicals and so assisted Germany sell chemicals to both Iraq and Iran.

When Hezbolla arose from the splinter cells engaged in terrorism against Israel, the Deuxieme Burea, China, North Korea and of course Iran funded it. How hippocritical was France. When Hezbollah killed French soldiers in Lebanon, within weeks the French were sending diplomats to the Hezbollah and France had no problem betraying the Maronite Christian Phelangistes, a right wing group which saw itself as loyal to France.

When Arafat went to Tunisia, he did so because Tunisia is under French intellgence control. He went protected by the French. When he then turned on the Tunisian government and tried to overthrow them, France had no choice but to withdraw its support of him staying in Tunisia.

While some splinter cells of the PLO and keep in minds there are 100’s of them, went to Yemen, Algeria, Iraq, the biggest unit was Al Fatah and this is the one the media inter-changes as being the PLO.

Even Al Fatah is not a cohesive or centralized operation. It to is a series of cells including Force 17, the Hawari Special Operations Group, Tanzim and the Al Aqsa Marytrs Brigade.

So for anyone to suggest you can fund terrorists by simply giving money to Hamas or the PLO is an idiot. These organizations are not centralized, they are rough coalitions of splinter cells all who distrust each other and compete with each other and would in fact turn on each other if they did not have Israel as their common enemy.

It is a fact that in the 1960s and the 1970s, Fatah trained a wide range of European, Middle Eastern, Asian, and African terrorist and insurgent groups and Israel was called on by South Africa and other African countries to provide it assistance fighting them so to suggest Israel funded Al Fatah when its alliance with South Africa and Rhodesia fighting Al Fatah in Africa is a blatant well known fact is absolutely stupid.

When Al Fatah engaged in acts of international terrorism in Western Europe and the Middle East in the 1970s. even the Deuxieme Bureau which was protecting the PLO had to take a back seat to other European nations whose police forces and intelligence units suddenly scrambled to try get rid of Al Fatah which was directly linked to terrorist cells in Spain, Germany, France and Britain.

Also keep in mind to fund terrorism it doesn’t come from sinister Jews or Israelis. It comes from an elaborate organized crime syndicate that uses the sale of heroin, cocaine, hash hish, illegal drug medications, stolen property and identity theft as methods to raise money, It then funnels the money through dummy charities or companies.

Al Fatah and the terrorist wing of Hamas have from day one been enemies because the Hamas terrorist cell feels that drugs of any kind are evil and feels Al Fatah does not follow the Muslim religion properly.

Hamas’s military wing like its non military wing and many other splinter groups within the PLO feel Al Fatah is a corrupt organization that funneled money that should have gone to schools, hospitals, water systems and military weapons, to Swiss and French bank accounts where a corrupt clique of its leaders have become billionaires while the average Palestinian remains impoverished.

The fact is you can not simplify the hundreds if not thousands of terrorist and non terrorist cells and units and groups operating outside official governments in the Middle East and mold them into a good guy and a bad guy and Israel as somehow manipulating them. It is an insult to anyone’s intelligence to suggest there are good and bad countries, or cohesive units.

The landscape of the Middle East is a series of ever changing alliances of cells and groups each with a self-professed leader, and each changing their ideology at the blink of the eye.

Stooges who read the inter-net and jump on newspaper articles that do not have the space or resources to properly research and explain who all these terrorist cells are, simply accept what they read verbatum and think the media is being accurate and can be accepted as is.

Or they believe they can go on the internet and read from people with clear anti-Israel biases and simply accept what they say.

What I do is to scower both sides of the picture and get as much information as possible directly from Al Fatah or Hamas then compare it to other sources. Most allegedly “Zionist” sources the stooges on this post claim to be Zionist use a technique that is deliberate-they go directly to Al Fatah and Hamas and whenever possible repeat these cell’s versions of themselves, and not contradict them. They have no reason to, terrorists do not speak of themselves in unassuming words. They describe themselves in terms that makes them sound powerful and almighty. The last thing Israel or any nation fighting terrorists wants is the notion they are fighting weaklings and so have no reason to change the description given by these groups.

This is why I said to Larry, Curly and Moe to go directly to Hamas and Al Fatah web sites and find one thing I gave them that contradicts their own information-they won’t-it’s the same friggin information! The information only begins to change when stooges in the West start to rewrite it to match their preconceived political notions and need to have good and bad guys.

I will say this one last time, only an idiot would suggest Muslim terrorists dedicated to the destruction of Israel would accept money from Mossad or Shin Bet who are dedicated to wiping them out and when-ever possible do just that.

Now Muffy or Buffy or Scruffy or what-ever your name is, debate. Go find something to show the above is wrong.

[Figleaf]

Speaking of which, how about you explain why you suggested the ZOA website at www.palestinefacts.com is connected to Hamas when that is clearly false.

No its not. Its the exact same information. Where the f..ck do you think it comes from. Man you are clueless.

Man, you are so full of it...

http://www.register.com/retail/whois_info....idate_challenge

Registrant:

ZOA

4 East 34th St 3rd Fl.

New York, NY 10016

US

Domain Name: PALESTINEFACTS.COM

Administrative Contact:

ZOA [email protected]

4 East 34th St 3rd Fl.

New York, NY 10016

US

212-481-1500 fax: 123 123 1234

Technical Contact:

Network Solutions, LLC. [email protected]

13861 Sunrise Valley Drive

Herndon, VA 20171

US

1-888-642-9675 fax: 571-434-4620

Once again you think you have a smoking gun Figleaf only it looks awful limp to me. Read the information. Its the same. It all comes from the same place. If you took the time to read it you would see it is all coming from the same place.

You said Palestinefacts.com is a Hamas website. It is not a Hamas website as the registration information proves. You either lied or you made a mistake. Which one? If the latter, how?

[Figleaf]

...the world of Figleaf where information is black and white and when it comes from different addresses it must be different because its from Zionists.

You're just astonishing. The dishonesty is incredible. You said a website was a Hamas website and it was not a Hamas website, it was owned by a group called the Zionist Organization of America. I made no comment on the INFORMATION, I was noting that YOU gave the wrong source for the information.