Beauty standards

[JerrySeinfeld]

But the point I was arguing was this: Someone on this forum (too lazy to look back right now) is saying that as a guy, if you go to a nightclub and don't dress to the 9's you not "getting any play" and I'm calling BS - that as long as you're not dressed "inappropriately" then you can get away with simple non-brand name clothing if your a good looking guy who knows how to carry and conversation and have a good laugh...tru or not?

I guess it depends what you mean by "dress to the 9's", "inappropriately", and the proviso "...if you're a good looking guy".

-k

Here is the quote:

Now from a straight guys perspective, I think all of society is obsessed with beauty. I can assure you 100% that if a straight guy went into the bar wearing a white T-shirt from a beer case, faded blue jeans, a John Deere hat, steel toe boots, no cologne, and hasn't shaved in a day or two isn't going to pick up in the bar no matter how naturally good looking he is, trust me.

I'm calling BS on that.

[Figleaf]

No, sorry ... I'm asking for proof that all their billions actually set any standards.

If they didn't, they're throwing their money away.

Not at all, they're trying to sell pimple cream, not the very concept of clear skin.

Are the beauty standards/ideals reflected in/promulgated by the media representative?

Of what? They are representative of what gets attention and sells soap.

If people have the choice (as some say they must) to reject such images, why does it seem like more and more people are internalizing these ideal images, measuring themselves against them and, finding themselves wanting, resorting to more extreme and desperate measures to meet them?

1-Are they?

2-If they are, it might be because their values are changing. (For which, I suppose, you want to blame 'the media'.)

[Figleaf]

Weak people are susceptible to bad messages. Men and women both suffer from this affliction.

In order to fix the problem completely, you can ban all messages that could be taken the wrong way, or you can make all people strong. Neither goal is achievable.

wisdom

[JerrySeinfeld]

This thread is starting to look alot like a bunch of ugly fat people who are pissed off because they can't keep up.

It seems like the entire world is conspiring against successful, good looking people. Makes sense - envy is a great motivator.

[blueblood]

Now from a straight guys perspective, I think all of society is obsessed with beauty. I can assure you 100% that if a straight guy went into the bar wearing a white T-shirt from a beer case, faded blue jeans, a John Deere hat, steel toe boots, no cologne, and hasn't shaved in a day or two isn't going to pick up in the bar no matter how naturally good looking he is, trust me. I could care less if the girl dressed the same way too. The guy has to dress nice too, and I think its BS a person shouldn't have to spend piles of money on their appearance. From what I've seen and this is pure speculation, a woman is more driven by a guy who flaunts himself (starting with spending all sorts of money on appearance) and who patronizes them. I only go to country dances now because the night clubs just make me sick.

Maybe that guy wouldn't be successful at a bar because he doesn't project the kind of "good provider" cues that urban club and bar-going women are looking for. A guy who walks into the urban bar setting who exhibits the cues of a good provider (as ruggedly goodlooking as the guy in your example, but wearing a suit and tie) would probably attract a number of women there. The guy in your example might be extremely successful in another kind of setting, like one where the women are looking for fellow blue-collar or rural types. The suit and tie guy in a rural bar could very well leave without getting a single phone number because he doesn't fit the profile of a good provider in that community.

In a rural bar, a suit and tie guy would get a lot of attention due to the fact that he stands out and is different. a guy wearing faded blue jeans and a t-shirt out of a case of coors in a city bar will get snide looks. Society sucks that way.

Certainly dressing appropriately is important (wearing a T & Jeans to a black tie isn't cool). But on the margin what really matters is how you handle yourself around the women you're after.

Well I don't go to a bar anymore as the music is getting too loud and me being older than everyone else. But I will say this. You and a crew of your friends go to a bar, you dress like I mentioned, and one of your friends dresses like a preppy for one night and switch dressing styles another night, and you tell me which method works better.

[blueblood]

This thread is starting to look alot like a bunch of ugly fat people who are pissed off because they can't keep up.

It seems like the entire world is conspiring against successful, good looking people. Makes sense - envy is a great motivator.

The point I'm trying to make is that society is obsessed about having to spend piles of money on appearances, for both sexes.

[JerrySeinfeld]

This thread is starting to look alot like a bunch of ugly fat people who are pissed off because they can't keep up.

It seems like the entire world is conspiring against successful, good looking people. Makes sense - envy is a great motivator.

The point I'm trying to make is that society is obsessed about having to spend piles of money on appearances, for both sexes.

That's because appearances matter.

You will be judged in the world by what you say, what you do and what you look like. If you don't care about what people think of you, then don't spend the money.

[Slavik44]

But the point I was arguing was this: Someone on this forum (too lazy to look back right now) is saying that as a guy, if you go to a nightclub and don't dress to the 9's you not "getting any play" and I'm calling BS - that as long as you're not dressed "inappropriately" then you can get away with simple non-brand name clothing if your a good looking guy who knows how to carry and conversation and have a good laugh...tru or not?

I guess it depends what you mean by "dress to the 9's", "inappropriately", and the proviso "...if you're a good looking guy".

-k

Here is the quote:

Now from a straight guys perspective, I think all of society is obsessed with beauty. I can assure you 100% that if a straight guy went into the bar wearing a white T-shirt from a beer case, faded blue jeans, a John Deere hat, steel toe boots, no cologne, and hasn't shaved in a day or two isn't going to pick up in the bar no matter how naturally good looking he is, trust me.

I'm calling BS on that.

Personally I have never tried to pick up girls dressed like that, so I won't say it isn't possible. But would it be fair to say that you start off having to overcome a very negative impression? In that sense wouldn't it be better to start off on a positive note? Sure it might be possible, but it is also possible to run the 100M after shooting yourself in the foot, but that doesn't mean it is advisable.

---------------

Anyways I haven't answered the poll, because I cannot. I personally feel like the true answer is not listed. So far we are trying to lay the blame on men, women, or both. But the blame if we can call it that probabley lays squarley at the feet of nature. Most animals in the natural world, have mating patterns, rituals, and standards. Often these are designed to both attract attention and display reproductive health or maturity. So Who I do I blame for the peackocks tail? Well Why should I blame anyone? Sexual animals need to have sex to reproduce and pass on their genes. And if you can find away to stand out, you stand a better chance of accomplishing these goals. It may be fair to claim that a part of this evolutionary psychology remains with in our psyche. Given that Humans are vastly more complex then most other animals, it would also make sense that are ways of standing out would also correlate and be vastly more complex. Perhaps we are just a culture of peacocks.

I don't blame anyone for capitalism and I don't see capitalism as a bad thing. Yes there are rich and poor in capitalism, and under capitalism not everyone can be Bill Gates. But capitalism unlike any other economic system has a far higher probablity of ensuring Bill Gates can be Bill Gates. I am niether Bill Gates nor am I Brad Pitt, but I will work with what I got to do the best I can, and am probabley better off trying to improve myself rather then complain about myself.

[August1991]

This thread offers a weird, contorted perspective on life.

So in summary:

Women wanna look good 'cause men are visual. Been that way since...oh...the cavemen!

And we didn't need a multi-billion dollar cosmetics industry to talk us into it. They just profit from an age old truth.

Men are "visual"?

The classic test is for a woman on a first date to close her eyes and ask a man what colour her eyes are. Men typically don't know.

Men are visual?

Any man who believes that should go read some books on basic biology and then come back and discuss his self-serving theories about human behaviour. Better yet, he should go out and live.

It's find to be all cocky and confident, but if you look like a slob or can't handle your liquor, you can head straight back to latrine duty, Private.

Yes, Dear.

----

The relations between women and men are far more complex than the superficial points made here by Seinfeld and Kimmy. If this thread is any indication of how Canadian or American women and men truly deal with one another, I fear that North Americans are very lonely individuals.

[B. Max]

Men are "visual"?

The classic test is for a woman on a first date to close her eyes and ask a man what colour her eyes are. Men typically don't know.

Men are visual?

Any man who believes that should go read some books on basic biology and then come back and discuss his self-serving theories about human behaviour. Better yet, he should go out and live.

Oh, have you never heard the expression, they all look better at closing time.

[leonardcohen]

Would women go to all that trouble to look beautiful

if there were no men around?-Just Asking

[BC_chick]

I my opinion, women are more demanding about their own and their fellow women's looks than men are.

Agreed and I voted as such as well.

However, there is a cause and effect to this phenomenon in which your poll essentially only inquires about the effect.

Indeed, we women are more critical of our looks than men are. But I believe it's because our society has reversed biological roles that naturally exist in the animal-kingdom. With most animals, the male species is often more attractive than the female because the female gets to decide which attractive male she chooses to mate with. In our society where men have traditionally been the breadwinners, men end up choosing their mates and in contrast to the animal-kingdom, women have adapted by making themselves attractive in order to attract the best suitor.

IOW, getting back to your poll, men are the cause of women's vanity, and women's reaction to it is the effect.

[BC_chick]

Being gay, I see this all the time in the gay world, too. Gay men are far more concerned with looks, beauty, appearance, physique, etc., than their gay female or straight male counterparts. The reason? Because gay men, like straight women, know that men are more responsive to someone with good skin, good teeth, nice hair, pretty eyes, healthy bodies, etc. Grooming (and spending on beauty products) plays an enormous role in the lives of straight women and gay men. Both feel the need to remain attractive to their romantic interests. Converseley, women are far less driven by the beauty of their potential mates. What appeals to women is the security their partner represents. We've all seen numerous examples of the pretty trophy wife with the old codger (Larry King and whoever he's married to this month), and the two Plain Jane gay women partners (e.g., Mary Cheney and Heather Poe).

So true. I've always said the same.

[BC_chick]

Books are one thing, experiences are another. You go to a night club dressed like I said and tell me if you pick up what you want or you have to settle or you get flat out burned.

I get the feeling you're both expressing your own reality as you see it. In the bars he hangs out in, it may very well be true that a scrubby guy can still get some play. But it sounds like you go to the kind of clubs where the music isn't coming from a juke-box and happy hour does not mean $1.00 pints of draft and a scrub will end up standing alone playing air-guitar all night.

[obsidian]

Beauty is defined in the mind by prefference, peer's, and body symmetry.