Grade Inflation

[jdobbin]

The United States considers this a problem. They are finding more and more schools because of the rewards system set up for academic greatness pushing grading marks up and up. But does it hold up in universities and colleges? Apparently not.

What do people think of the system in Canada. Is there grade inflation? Are there too many As handed out?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061118/ap_on_...ssions_game_iii

[Chuck U. Farlie]

How about degree deflation?

A bachelors degree no longer means as much as it used to as so many people have degrees these days.

I have a masters degree and have been having a hard time sustaining employment in my field primarily due to the amount of competition that I have.

The result is that due to a desire for job security, I am working in a field completely un-related to my degrees, and for considerably less money that what I would expect in my field.

I don't know what to suggest to my daughter when she needs to decide on a career in 10 years. It's very hard to choose what to study and to be confident that you will get a good job after investing so much money in your education. In retrospect I should have become an electrician.... I would be earning more now and have spent considerably less time and money on education.

[jdobbin]

How about degree deflation?

A bachelors degree no longer means as much as it used to as so many people have degrees these days.

I have a masters degree and have been having a hard time sustaining employment in my field primarily due to the amount of competition that I have.

The result is that due to a desire for job security, I am working in a field completely un-related to my degrees, and for considerably less money that what I would expect in my field.

I don't know what to suggest to my daughter when she needs to decide on a career in 10 years. It's very hard to choose what to study and to be confident that you will get a good job after investing so much money in your education. In retrospect I should have become an electrician.... I would be earning more now and have spent considerably less time and money on education.

I've heard the same thing about undergraduate degrees. I'm not sure if there is any study on inflation and Canadian degrees. I think in some schools, it would be hard to get a good mark. However, we have 47 universities. I wonder what the story is across the board.

Are employers looking directly at your mark when thinking about your employment?

[Chuck U. Farlie]

No, they can't be considering my marks as I don't submit transcripts - and if I did it shouldn't be an issue - have an 81% average for my undergrad and 86% for my masters.

My field, in case you are wondering, is GIS/Remote Sensing. The main problem must be experience or lack there of. I do have experience (although somewhat limited), but since I am not getting call-backs despite re-working my CV countless times I am assuming that they must have a lot of candidates applying with similar or better credentials.

The other turn of events has been a down-grading of the types of jobs that GISers get. Back in '96 to '98 when it was an emerging field, fresh graduates were starting at $40 to $50k as GIS technicians. Now if you take a look, GIS techs get about $25 to $30k a year to start - which is pathetic... I am better off driving truck for a living at that pay.

Perhaps I chose the wrong field of study... and I am fully willing to retrain... the question is, what to retrain for where the jobs will still be there? Living in Toronto, I see Professional Engineers (immigrants) taking jobs stacking boxes... there are a lot of well-educated people in this country.

It seems a bit crazy that I spent about $50000 getting my university degrees (the masters was paid for by scholarships and teaching assistantships), and took 6 years of my income earning life. Therefore the opportunity cost for me going to university was $50k + 6 x ~$30k = $230000 - and the pay back isn't there.

If I were to address a room of high-school students about to embark on their post-secondary education, I would advise them to choose very very carefully about the investment they are making. I, for one, think that university courses are for the most part over sold. So many people would be much better suited to go into trades, but when I was leaving high school there seemed to be an implication that trades were for the 'dumber' kids... the smart kids go to university. Who really were the smart ones?

[jdobbin]

It seems a bit crazy that I spent about $50000 getting my university degrees (the masters was paid for by scholarships and teaching assistantships), and took 6 years of my income earning life. Therefore the opportunity cost for me going to university was $50k + 6 x ~$30k = $230000 - and the pay back isn't there.

If I were to address a room of high-school students about to embark on their post-secondary education, I would advise them to choose very very carefully about the investment they are making. I, for one, think that university courses are for the most part over sold. So many people would be much better suited to go into trades, but when I was leaving high school there seemed to be an implication that trades were for the 'dumber' kids... the smart kids go to university. Who really were the smart ones?

Kids are quitting high schools in Canada to drive trucks for $60,000 in Alberta. I wonder if there is a future in that.

Businesses in Canada are not very entrepreneurial. They hire conservatively and don't invest in the business or people. And for those who think it is just because we are taxes so high, I think that is only part of the picture. Some income trust businesses were paying no tax. Did that make them more entrepreneurial?

I'm a screenwriter. Money comes in dribs and drabs. I've gone back to school in the trades, as you say. It should help keep me writing and bring in a regular income at the same time.

[RB]

i feel that education (higher) is quite indispensable to a wise person. i hasten to say that for those of us who have continued with education to the umpteenth degree still seek the beauty of the mind.

for jobs i vouch to say that a current minium requirement to compete for opportunities is a degree

Chuck U. Farlie

since you live in Toronto - hope you are able to look up TX Communications are always looking for initiative minds.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

Thanks for the link RB...

I, for one, got tired with academics - especially that which falls within the Environmental side of things, which very often GIS and remote sensing does. Many academics are dreamers doing study upon study of mostly pointless things that will never happen. For example, I did my Masters thesis regarding the spatial distribution of the forest fragments remaining in Hainan province, China. The whole point was refining the spatial statistical process of analyzing forest fragments... but it still seems completely pointless to me, even though it passed dissertation. I even considered doing a PhD, but I could not fathom another 4 years of Uni surrounded by academics.... I would have either become crazy or an alcoholic.

In my personal experiences some of the most intelligent people I have met have been completely un-educated (formally)... and I have also met some extremely educated people that seem pretty dumb.

I personally think that University is over-rated. Any intelligent and motivated person will seek knowledge irregardless of getting a piece of paper worth $50k at the end of it all. If only I knew how to calculate opportunity cost before going to university... either that or I should have listened to my old-man, who became a millionaire running a construction company, when he said don't bother with university.

[August1991]

There are two issues being discussed here.

The first concerns grade inflation and the second concerns diploma devaluation.

As to grade inflation, the only possible protection is the desire of an institution to maintain its reputation. I prefer the American system of many small colleges for several reasons andone of them is the ability of a small college to have a reputation.

In Canada, it's not clear to me what incentives a teacher or department head has to maintain academic standards. Moreover, most professors prefer to avoid trouble and pass students rather than face contested marks.

Grade inflation leads in part to diploma devaluation. Diploma competition is the worst form of competition. Nobody wins. Students are like trees in the forest ever reaching for a higher diploma to distinguish themselves from the pack just as tall trees seek sunlight. It's the competition of cosmetic surgery or teeth whitening. It's more disturbing that the State subsidizes educational competition. Unfortunately, I don't see any other solution because we have no other way of identifying which people deserve higher education.

I suppose that some people do learn something of value in higher education too but I'm inclined to believe that much post-secondary education is designed to identify and filter rather than teach.

[geoffrey]

Two different things here.

Grade inflation, not much an issue where I go to school in my opinion. The University seems pretty quick to crack down on classes that are an "easy A" or teachers that strive for that A- average....

About the value of your work, I think it has considerably more to do with how you play your cards, and the experience you've gained. I'm not even 25, I don't have my designation or degree yet, but I make considerably more money than most recently graduated or even designated accountants (I work full-time, so it's an accurate comparison, this was a publically advertised job too, this isn't daddy finding me a cushy one). I picked the right industries, the right experiences, at the right time. With my B.Comm I'll likely make more. Many will make less, and some will make more even still.

Much of it comes down to chance and perhaps luck if such a concept exists.

A degree needs to be seen as a means to an end and not an end within itself. Too many are reliant on the fact that a degree in this makes you this a year. Doesn't happen that way. Your value to a company is based upon numerous factors, education being only one, albeit a large one. I know many six figure executives that didn't spend a day in a university classroom, and many under $30k earners with master degrees. Your education is only a tool, and should be seen that way, not as an entitlement to a certain job or standard of living.

[Charles Anthony]

I am surprised nobody has brought up the "Mr. or Mrs. degrees" that people seek. Many people enter post-secondary education because they are not married yet and they are bored.

The affordability of post-secondary education in Canada makes it a convenient way for young people to continue socializing without being fully responsible for themselves. In some instances, it becomes a form of welfare.

[jdobbin]

Grade inflation leads in part to diploma devaluation. Diploma competition is the worst form of competition. Nobody wins. Students are like trees in the forest ever reaching for a higher diploma to distinguish themselves from the pack just as tall trees seek sunlight. It's the competition of cosmetic surgery or teeth whitening. It's more disturbing that the State subsidizes educational competition. Unfortunately, I don't see any other solution because we have no other way of identifying which people deserve higher education.

How do you mean by diploma devaluation? Are you referring to post-secondary diplomas or high school ones?

[jdobbin]

Grade inflation, not much an issue where I go to school in my opinion. The University seems pretty quick to crack down on classes that are an "easy A" or teachers that strive for that A- average....

What about the entry level marks of students coming in? Did you find some grade inflation there?

[jdobbin]

I am surprised nobody has brought up the "Mr. or Mrs. degrees" that people seek. Many people enter post-secondary education because they are not married yet and they are bored.

The affordability of post-secondary education in Canada makes it a convenient way for young people to continue socializing without being fully responsible for themselves. In some instances, it becomes a form of welfare.

That affordability is increasingly disappearing. At one time I would agree with you but there are fewer students who can afford to go to university for four years of partying.

The main reason is that Canadian parents don't usually pay the full shot for a student's courses.

[Argus]

The United States considers this a problem. They are finding more and more schools because of the rewards system set up for academic greatness pushing grading marks up and up. But does it hold up in universities and colleges? Apparently not.

What do people think of the system in Canada. Is there grade inflation? Are there too many As handed out?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061118/ap_on_...ssions_game_iii

Certainly there is in Ontario. It's almost impossible for a student to fail a grade here, or was last time I read up on it. Schools are more concerned with the student's sense of well being and confidence than in actually teaching them reading, writing and "rithmatic". Even as far back as when I went to college this had caused the school to institute a kind of "screening" on all students, no matter what their marks. Incoming students were tested for English and mathematics, and those who failed (most) were sent to remedial classes to bring them up to snuff on basic grammar and algebra.

My experience in government - where reading, grammar, vocabulary, etc. play a major part in almost all job tests and competitions, is that most young people have inadequate reading and writing skills. This is true of French and English graduates.

As to post secondary "inflation" I can say we get a lot of university graduates every time we run a competition for basic, entry level clerks, or even hire temporary workers. Most seem to hold degrees in liberal arts courses, especially psychology and sociology. Political Science is up there, too.

[geoffrey]

Grade inflation, not much an issue where I go to school in my opinion. The University seems pretty quick to crack down on classes that are an "easy A" or teachers that strive for that A- average....

What about the entry level marks of students coming in? Did you find some grade inflation there?

Well, the entry standards are way higher now then previous. I was told in grade 11 to expect an 80% cut off into the business school, my 85% high school graduating average barely got me in. I hear that 85% is still pretty much the cut off now, so it hasn't changed in a couple years in any dramatic sense no.

The difference sometimes is seen though in provincial differences in quality of education. Alberta students (Prarie students all use the same ciriculum I think, so must be similar) and Ontario students that were around for the grade 13 years are profoundly more successful than those from places that have less stringent graduation level courses.

[gc1765]

What about the entry level marks of students coming in? Did you find some grade inflation there?

At UBC, there has been an increase in the average of students coming in. When I applied, the average student entering University had maybe an 80-85% average, now I hear it's at least 90%.

[jdobbin]

At UBC, there has been an increase in the average of students coming in. When I applied, the average student entering University had maybe an 80-85% average, now I hear it's at least 90%.

And entry level grades is how Maclean's magazine rates universities.

[jdobbin]

Well, the entry standards are way higher now then previous. I was told in grade 11 to expect an 80% cut off into the business school, my 85% high school graduating average barely got me in. I hear that 85% is still pretty much the cut off now, so it hasn't changed in a couple years in any dramatic sense no.

The difference sometimes is seen though in provincial differences in quality of education. Alberta students (Prarie students all use the same ciriculum I think, so must be similar) and Ontario students that were around for the grade 13 years are profoundly more successful than those from places that have less stringent graduation level courses.

Grade levels certainly have risen for most universities. It was a lot lower when I went but the failure rate for people who didn't put in effort was high.

[gc1765]

I should also note that the grades given at University do not change much...but I guess that depends on the department. Some courses have a set range of averages (usually around 63-67% or something like that) that the average must fall within, or else it is scaled. Other courses have a set failure rate (around 30% or so) and scale the grades to make sure that approximately the same number of people fail. Again, that probably depends on the Course/Department.

[geoffrey]

And entry level grades is how Maclean's magazine rates universities.

Not worth the paper it's written on.

Macleans describes how good of a ridiculous philosophy or fine arts education you can get. In real terms, it doesn't apply to real life. The U of C, especially the business school, produces some of the highest earning graduates in Canada... and it's ranked pretty much at the bottom.

I tend not to look at the frills and gimmicks they can throw at you, but instead at the desired outcomes of the education. If you want to make money, and don't want to be an engineer, Queens, Ivey or Haskayne is where to be. Macleans doesn't reflect that at all.

Sure U of C doesn't have a great campus culture, Calgary doesn't have a great culture... but they sure do make the moola.

The rating scheme is ridiculous.