"Democracy" in Afghanistan

[normanchateau]

"Meanwhile the traffickers are waging a political war of their own—and winning. Diplomats and well-informed Afghans believe that up to a quarter of the new Parliament's 249 elected members are linked to narcotics production and trafficking. One especially controversial figure is Arif Noorzai, who has won the post of deputy speaker of Parliament. (He denies any wrongdoing.) In a study for the independent Afghanistan Research and Evaluation Unit, Afghan expert Andrew Wilder concludes that at least 17 newly elected M.P.s are drug traffickers themselves, 24 others are connected to criminal gangs, 40 are commanders of armed groups and 19 face serious allegations of war crimes and human-rights abuses."

Source: Newsweek

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10663339/site/...splaymode/1098/

"Like Musharraf in Pakistan, Karzai walks a tightrope between domestic politics and American demands for dramatic actions -– such as ending the drug trade -- clearly well beyond his powers. The trade penetrates even the elected Parliament which is full of the usual suspects. Among the 249 members of the Wolesi Jirga (lower house) are at least 17 known drug traffickers in addition to 40 warlords (commanders of armed militias), 24 members of criminal gangs, and 19 men facing serious allegations of war crimes and human rights violations, any or all of whom may be affiliated with the poppy business. For years the Kabul rumor mill has traced the drug trade to the family of the President himelf."

Source:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11296

[Army Guy]

normanchateau:

Norm is there anything you like about the mission in afgan ?

-So far we have establish that you do not like "thier" religion and it's influence on thier government.

-You don't like the fact that some of thier government is made-up of criminal's.

- you don't like the fact that a large portion of thier GDP is for the drug trade.

- you don't agree with the fact that alot of Aganis make thier living ,thru the drug trade.

- You believe that we should withdrawal all of our assistance for the above reasons, that we should punish "ALL" afganis for the actions of a few...

What you've failed to do is come up with reasonable solutions, you are very good at picking apart the solutions now in place ,but have yet to come up with a better solution yourself. And your statements are leading me to believe that you as well as a majority of Canadians are not all that well informed about the problems in Afgan, or you are holding the Afganis people to the same high standard as most Canadians try to achieve...but not all do...

I'm curious how much religion effects our governments decissions, or any decission that effects our lives..

I'd also be curious to how much the drug trade is worth here in Canada.

I'd also be curious just what percentage of people in our government have been or still are involved in some sort of illigal behavior.

And if we can answer negitively to any of those questions what gives us the right as Canadians to judge another nation. what gives us the moral high ground.

In December 2001, the Government of Canada adopted Bill C‑24, An Act to Amend the Criminal Code (Organized Crime and Law Enforcement). Ushered in as “strong anti-gang legislation,” Bill C‑24 was intended to provide law enforcement officials with the tools necessary to combat organized criminal groups effectively and to help, among other things, to make inroads against drug trafficking and the various social problems that normally accompany it. The magnitude of those problems is indicated by the sums of money involved: illegal drug sales in Canada have reached an estimated $7 or $18 billion a year,(34) and their economic costs (including costs to the health care system, lost productivity, enforcement, property crimes committed by addicts, etc.) as much as $5 billion a year.(35)

This is but one sample off goggle, not bad anywhere between 7 and 18 bil, thats estamited, not actually figures, kind of hard to get them drug dealers to fill out income tax forms, but you get the piont that Canada's drug activities.

When compared to the UN's est of Afgans drug trade worth less the 3 bil annually, i find it hard for us Canadians to throw stones and judge the Afganis...

My Webpage

[watching&waiting]

Democracy can mean many things to different people. In a country like Afghanistan where they never had a say in anything the government did, and you either followed what they said or chances are you would be punished until you were handicapped or killed, or you followed the government no matter what. Now in that country just the simple chance to vote on who they would like to have in the government, is a very big thing. This was never even a choice before.

Now the fact that even with the elections there still will be members of the government that bought, brided or threatened they own election, is just part of the natural growing pains that come from a terror ruled country, to a democratically elected government. We do not want to cut and run just because this first try at freedom of the elecorate has still some unsavoury guys. With time and a lot of effort the people will feel they can make a difference and yes it will grow more and more to eliminate those who would try and defeat the purpose of democracy.

Since Tasmania can not keep up with the demand for Opiates for the legal drug industry, it then can be that much of the crops in Afghanistan, could be used to fill that need and there by make these farmers now growing for the illegal markets, to change to the legal markets. But you also have to remember the illegal markets will try to extort the farmers into selling to them, and in this country where there are vast areas where there are little to no police or army to help the farmers, we then have to fine ways to train and pay police and afghan soldiers, to take the right position and make the lives of the farmers safe from treats. When you can do this, you will see democracy grow. Right now, what you see in Afghanistan are just the seed of democracy. We need now to help and protect the growth that is slowly coming from that. It seems that a lot of the members on this board are just too impatient to let things grow and happen the way they were ment to be. They want instant results, and nothing short of that would be considered as a successful mission. They forget that our own system is still growing and we as a country are evolving each and every day. Since our own system is not instant, then why are we demanding that of our troops and the people in Afghanistan? Or is it that we are frightened that in the growth of the new democracy in Afghanistan, they may show us that some of our own ideas were not the way to go? Either way I learned a long time ago, no matter how much I wanted something to happen and that the more I oushed it to happen, that it will only go at the rate that it will occur naturally.

[Canadian Blue]

I don't think I've seen a single response to what should happen in Afghanistan from the left wing. The only response is, "lets pull out". People are trying to turn this into Iraq when it clearly isn't, Norman's ignorance on the issue is a perfect example of why Canadian's seem opposed to our involvement.

[normanchateau]

People are trying to turn this into Iraq when it clearly isn't

There are also shades of Vietnam where the US found it necessary to sacrifice thousands and thousands of lives to protect the "good " Vietnamese from the "bad" Vietnamese. And of course the US pointed out that they were only in Vietnam because the "good" Vietnamese asked for help. Now we're protecting the "good" Afghans from the "bad" Afghans. Odd that the "good" guys this time include drug dealers, warlords, criminals, human rights violators, corrupt officials and fundamentalist mullahs declaring death to Christian converts.

Once Canadians become better informed of the type of government that they're propping up in Afghanistan, I expect support for the mission will plummet.

[Canadian Blue]

You have no clue what the mission involves. Let's get one of your comments previously on the Afghan mission.

Depends on how you define "retreating". Most NATO nations have already retreated from any obligation to put their forces into Afghanistan. Only a small number of NATO countries even have troops in Afghanistan. And those who are in Afghanistan are fighting a losing battle to prop up a corrupt government with legislation which cannot be "contrary to the laws of Islam."

Countries with over 100 troops in Afghanistan.

US=11,250

UK=5200

Turkey=475

Sweden=350

Spain=625

Romania=750

Portugal=180

Norway=350

New Zealand=100

Netherlands=2100

Lithuania=135

Finland=100

France=1000

Macedonia=120

Germany=2750

Greece=180

Hungary=200

Italy=1800

Denmark=320

Czech Republic=320

Croatia=120

Canada=1800

Bulgaria=150

Belguim=300

Australia=200

This isn't Vietnam, not even close. Afghanistan was sanctioned by the UN, and is a multilateral operation. The election's were once again overseen by UN observers to ensure fairness. Any conflict Canada goes into, we will deal with corrupt governments. Look at Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Haiti, East Timor, etc.

Norman, how do you expect any country to go from one extreme to another???

You have to give democracy time to grow, something which you don't realize.

Odd that the "good" guys this time include drug dealers, warlords, criminals, human rights violators, corrupt officials and fundamentalist mullahs declaring death to Christian converts.

Their are rarely good guys in war, if that was the result of the elections then we have to abide by them. Democracy doesn't happen overnight. Once again if that is the makeup of parliment then we have to allow it.

As for fundamentalist mullah's killing christian's, we have covered this in length. Everything from the international reaction, the Afghan governments actions, and the result. You are still going on this Harper hate trip for no good reason.

As for the constitution, it was in part put together by the United Nations so you can ask them about why they support an Islamic theocracy.

The current parliament was elected in 2005. Among the elected officials were former mujahadeen, Taliban members, communists, reformists, and Islamic fundamentalists. 28% of the delegates elected were women, 3% more than the 25% minimum guaranteed under the constitution. This made Afghanistan, long known under the Taliban for its oppression of women, one of the leading countries in terms of female representation.

The real good news for Afghanistan is that it has great potentials to come out of poverty very quick and become a normal stable country. This is due to many reports showing that the country has possession of mass amounts of highly demanding natural resources and minerals. According to the US Geological Survey and the Afghan Ministry of Mines and Industry, Afghanistan may be possessing 15.6 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, 1.6 billion barrels of oil and up to 1,325 million barrels of natural gas liquids. This could mark the turning point in Afghanistan’s reconstruction efforts. Energy exports could generate the revenue that Afghan officials need to modernize the country’s infrastructure and expand economic opportunities for the beleaguered and fractious population.[2] Other reports suggest that there are huge amounts of gold, copper, coal, iron ore and other rich minerals.[

Once again why pullout, when we have the potential to lose so much more. If we have fought well against the insurgents, and help rebuild Afghanistan that country could have a very bright future.

[normanchateau]

Their are rarely good guys in war, if that was the result of the elections then we have to abide by them. Democracy doesn't happen overnight. Once again if that is the makeup of parliment then we have to allow it.

As for the constitution, it was in part put together by the United Nations so you can ask them about why they support an Islamic theocracy.

On the first point, yes we do have to abide with the type of criminals that Afghanistan has elected to their parliament. But not all Canadians want to support, with Canadian troops, a country which elects such people to their parliament.

On the second point, the UN was involved in that the Afghan constitution claims to provide UN style human rights to their citizens. Unfortunately, all legislation in Afghanistan, whether UN sanctioned or not, is secondary to the "laws of Islam". That's why Afghanistan can imprison blasphemers, Christian converts and homosexuals. Not all Canadians want to support, with Canadian troops, a theocracy which puts the Koran before human rights.

I appreciate your sincere and well-meaning desire to extend the Afghanistan mission but most Canadians, myself included, no longer support it.

[Canadian Blue]

Their are rarely good guys in war, if that was the result of the elections then we have to abide by them. Democracy doesn't happen overnight. Once again if that is the makeup of parliment then we have to allow it.

As for the constitution, it was in part put together by the United Nations so you can ask them about why they support an Islamic theocracy.

On the first point, yes we do have to abide with the type of criminals that Afghanistan has elected to their parliament. But not all Canadians want to support, with Canadian troops, a country which elects such people to their parliament.

On the second point, the UN was involved in that the Afghan constitution claims to provide UN style human rights to their citizens. Unfortunately, all legislation in Afghanistan, whether UN sanctioned or not, is secondary to the "laws of Islam". That's why Afghanistan can imprison blasphemers, Christian converts and homosexuals. Not all Canadians want to support, with Canadian troops, a theocracy which puts the Koran before human rights.

I appreciate your sincere and well-meaning desire to extend the Afghanistan mission but most Canadians, myself included, no longer support it.

Are Canadian's basing that on ignorance, or principle. Let me show you a qoute which show's your detailed knowledge which would allow you to take such a strong position on Afghanistan.

QUOTE

Depends on how you define "retreating". Most NATO nations have already retreated from any obligation to put their forces into Afghanistan. Only a small number of NATO countries even have troops in Afghanistan. And those who are in Afghanistan are fighting a losing battle to prop up a corrupt government with legislation which cannot be "contrary to the laws of Islam."

Countries with over 100 troops in Afghanistan.

US=11,250

UK=5200

Turkey=475

Sweden=350

Spain=625

Romania=750

Portugal=180

Norway=350

New Zealand=100

Netherlands=2100

Lithuania=135

Finland=100

France=1000

Macedonia=120

Germany=2750

Greece=180

Hungary=200

Italy=1800

Denmark=320

Czech Republic=320

Croatia=120

Canada=1800

Bulgaria=150

Belguim=300

Australia=200

Care to answer on why you made such a statement which was obviously false and untrue?

So Canadian's are more at home supporting the Taliban, who would actually kill homosexuals, and would engage in grevious human rights abuses. Once again you have shown your ignorance towards the Afghanistan mission.

Are you oppsed to all operation's that the Canadian Military has been involved in within the world?

As well if you have no clue whats happening on the ground in Afghanistan, and the actual state of democracy there, how can you jump to these conclusions?

Would you prefer the Taliban in place in Afghanistan, would be ready to allow a large civil war in that region in order for troops to pullout?

Afghanistan is not a theocracy like Iran by any means. I have pointed to the facts which you have once again chosen to ignore. That includes improvements in womens rights, human rights, even homosexual rights have improved more so in Afghanistan under the current government then under the Taliban.

What would the reaction from NATO and the UN be if Canada were to pullout?

I'm gonna ask all members of this board this question:

Do you support Canada pulling out of Afghanistan, the former Yugoslavia, Haiti, and East Timor. A pullout of all resources currently allocated to these international trouble spots?

[normanchateau]

no offense but you thought Harper supported killing gays?

No I did not think that Harper supported killing gays. Show me where I said that.

[normanchateau]

"Afghanistan reconstruction efforts have also missed targets and disappointed government officials. Appathurai said corruption is rife in the newly elected government and President Hamid Karzai should remove those officials suspected of corruption immediately.

President Karzai approved setting up what was called by the Taliban a "vice-and-virtue department." During Taliban rule police from the vice-and-virtue department patrolled the streets and arrested men who did not have long-enough beards, and women who were not being escorted by a male relative. President Karzai is said to have given into pressure by an Islamic council, which ordered resurrection of the department to prevent further influences of Western culture taking hold. Afghanistan's Interior Minister, the Ministry of Hajj, the Ministry of Religious Affairs, and the Supreme Court drafted the proposal.

The measure awaits Parliament's approval in coming weeks.

The vice-and-virtue department, as it is written, is expected to employ religious police who would enforce alcohol, drug, and prostitution restrictions. Critics of President Karzai claim at best the choice of words was alarming for the vice-and-virtue department was one of the most abusive practices under the Taliban.

Human Rights Watch of New York took issue with the president's choice of words too. Zama Coursen-Neff, a senior researcher with the group, said that females across Afghanistan are facing greater insecurity than two years ago, and it is even more important than ever for its government to improve the quality of life not limit it. Coursen-Neff added that by reinstating such a controversial name only adds more grief to a country battling daily violence."

Source:

http://www.thinkandask.com/2006/072806-troops.html

[Canadian Blue]

Lets see which statements were completely untrue.

I'm sorry that stating the truth about Mr. Harper makes people want to hate me. He did vote against Bill C-250. Bill C-250 states, among other things, that killing lesbians and gays is a hate crime. I've provided the link. Have you read it and if so, what have I said that's untrue?

I have, however, pointed out that he voted against legislation which made it a hate crime to kill people based on their sexual orientation. I have never suggested that he voted against this legislation because he approves of such criminal behaviour.

Harper did, however, vote against Bill C-250 and one of the provisions of that bill was that the murder of gays and lesbians, merely because of their sexual orientation, was a hate crime. The criminal code was amended, i.e., 318(4), to add killing on the basis of sexual orientation as a hate crime. Previously ethnicity, race and religion were covered but not sexual orientation.

Even though it was about hate speech not the act of murder.

I'm going to edit my previous points, since looking through your previous posts its obvious you were more or less ignorant on most things. As you still are about Afghanistan.

But tell us your approach to Afghanistan as compared to what we are doing now, and answer the question's provided.

[Canadian Blue]

Wow, do we need anymore topics on Afghanistan?

Air these concern's in one of the several topics relating to Afghanistan!

[normanchateau]

no offense but you thought Harper supported killing gays?

No I did not think that Harper supported killing gays. Show me where I said that.

Not surprisingly, your response failed to address the issue. You claim that I said "Harper supported killing gays." Show me where I said that. Not one of the quotes you've provided say that.

But then again, you think the corrupt Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is a democracy...

[normanchateau]

Wow, do we need anymore topics on Afghanistan?

Apparently in your mind, evidence that the corrupt, fundamentalist Islamic Karzai government is now resorting to reintroducing Taliban practices to Afghanistan deserves to be buried somewhere else. That's understandable from the perspective of someone trying to rationalize Canadian support for the Karzai government.

[Mimas]

I don't think I've seen a single response to what should happen in Afghanistan from the left wing. The only response is, "lets pull out". People are trying to turn this into Iraq when it clearly isn't, Norman's ignorance on the issue is a perfect example of why Canadian's seem opposed to our involvement.

Dude, what the heck do you think you know about Afghanistan? Obviously close to nothing except for the BS coming from the Army and the Gov't. Afghanistan has always been a freaking mess and not even Allah himself can help them. So how many young soldiers' lives do you want to see wasted for nothing?

[normanchateau]

"AMSTERDAM, Nov 16 (Reuters) - The Dutch army leadership disagree with NATO's strategy of heavy combat operations in Afghanistan to keep the Taliban under control, fearing it would fuel more turmoil, a Dutch newspaper reported on Thursday.

NRC Handelsblad quoted unnamed sources at the defence ministry as saying tension had emerged between the Netherlands and its NATO partners, the United States, Britain and Canada, over the Afghan peacekeeping mission."

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L16197202.htm

Does not bode well for Canada's mission.

[scribblet]

no offense but you thought Harper supported killing gays?

No I did not think that Harper supported killing gays. Show me where I said that.

Not surprisingly, your response failed to address the issue. You claim that I said "Harper supported killing gays." Show me where I said that. Not one of the quotes you've provided say that.

You have made that clear in numerous posts on a daily basis, insisting that opposition to the bill was based on 'supporting the killing of gay's and not hate speech. Your propaganda is quite transparent.

[betsy]

Let's not forget the most important fact: we fight in Afghanistan for our own interest...including that of other countries that believe in democracy. Helping to re-build Afghanistan comes as an important bonus. IMO.

[Army Guy]

Mimas:

Dude, what the heck do you think you know about Afghanistan? Obviously close to nothing except for the BS coming from the Army and the Gov't. Afghanistan has always been a freaking mess and not even Allah himself can help them. So how many young soldiers' lives do you want to see wasted for nothing?

Dude, pass me the pipe, you've had way to much...Thats the problem with most of those that do not see the Afgan mission for what it truely is. once you've debunked all of thier excuses for not supporting the mission they come back with comments like yours. Like we know nothing about Afgan, or it's always been a mess and it will always will be, British, russians, etc etc could not sort it out what makes you think we can...

or we don't support the current corupt gov't....

These excuses make me laugh so let me ask you this, Did you know of this info before the mission started, i mean i as a soldier would have hoped you did some research before the Majority of Canadians decided to ship our soldiers over in the first place...One of the reasons i ask is i'm curious to how much thought was put into the decission to send us over there, even after the military had told most Canadians that this mission would be extremily tough and would cost lots of lives...but the majority of Canadians were beating thier war drums, and shouting from the roof tops "send them"...

Everyone is entitled to thier opinons, hell everyone is entitled to change them i'm not arguing agan'st that , what pisses me off is those that change them on a whim or lack of proper research without regard to there consquences ...I would not be over here in Afgan today if it was not for the majority of Canadians, I would not be loading my comrads onto the back of a herc in metal caskets if it had not been for a majority of Canadians...

Then for them to say oooppps we may have made a mistake we changed our minds and make up a bunch of lame excuses to cover thier asses...so they may feel good about making the mistake of sending us over here in the first place...That is what i have a problem with...to have someone telling the world that i'm wasting my time, that Afgan is unwinnable, then out of the corner of there mouths say they support the troops and knowing all of this from day one of the mission... If you fit into this catagory don't be surprised when some soldier boots you in the nuts and says thanks for your support.....

We are making a difference here, and we will win this conflict in time, Why because that is what you've asked of us to do... and we will do that with or without your help...

I'll sum up, Next time you start flapping your gums and spewing your pioson, do some research, you might even try asking a soldier over here or thats served here if he or she is wasting thier time...if they think that there sacrafice is worth it...ask them how many times they've been to Afgan, and why there is so many soldiers with repeat tours. and take a few minutes to think about why your opinon and thiers do not match...

[watching&waiting]

There seems to be a very disturbing faction of posters that have been allowed to trample on Canadian traditions, and get away with it. So this emboldens them to go even further. I must say that this year I was more then appalled at how the people allowed these miscreants to lessen Rememberence Day ceremonies with wearing white poopies and all the nasty ati-war garbage they have been using up to that day. I never thought I would see the day when people would allow that kind of ignorant behaviour to go unchecked by the public. But these are changing times and I guess there is going to be a big split in views and splittering into groups, that are going to oppose each other.

For example the starter of this thread has always tried to make points about gay rights and things in every thread he does. Even when gay is not an issue, he will try and make it so. So yes, I suppose he is gay and that to him is top priority in all things he does. We let that slip by, mostly because it really is not worth the argument.

We are allowing here in Canada children to bring Kirpin's to school, but do not allow cross in a 3rd grade Rememberence display. These are things that in my time as a child would not have been tolerated by the people. Now it is all just turned upside down, that a normal hetrosexual person who is not overtly religious feels like a foreigner in their own country. This is a shame and it needs to stop. I promised myself after seeing what this last Nov 11 2006 was and has become, and I do not like it. It is not Canadian and is not what I think the majority of Canadians think or want. But because we have sat by and let these others speak and we let it go unchecked, we see the results. I will not let this go unchecked again. It is time for the true majority to speak out and put the minorities in their place. No more special interests, and giving these people a pass because they are not Canadians. This is Canada and we have Canadian traditions, learn them and be part or stay out of them completely. No we do not want to blend these into other lands traditions in any way. I must say that I am disappointed that we now have to push our way just so we can keep our traditional ways.

[betsy]

There seems to be a very disturbing faction of posters that have been allowed to trample on Canadian traditions, and get away with it. So this emboldens them to go even further. I must say that this year I was more then appalled at how the people allowed these miscreants to lessen Rememberence Day ceremonies with wearing white poopies and all the nasty ati-war garbage they have been using up to that day. I never thought I would see the day when people would allow that kind of ignorant behaviour to go unchecked by the public. But these are changing times and I guess there is going to be a big split in views and splittering into groups, that are going to oppose each other.

For example the starter of this thread has always tried to make points about gay rights and things in every thread he does. Even when gay is not an issue, he will try and make it so. So yes, I suppose he is gay and that to him is top priority in all things he does. We let that slip by, mostly because it really is not worth the argument.

We are allowing here in Canada children to bring Kirpin's to school, but do not allow cross in a 3rd grade Rememberence display. These are things that in my time as a child would not have been tolerated by the people. Now it is all just turned upside down, that a normal hetrosexual person who is not overtly religious feels like a foreigner in their own country. This is a shame and it needs to stop. I promised myself after seeing what this last Nov 11 2006 was and has become, and I do not like it. It is not Canadian and is not what I think the majority of Canadians think or want. But because we have sat by and let these others speak and we let it go unchecked, we see the results. I will not let this go unchecked again. It is time for the true majority to speak out and put the minorities in their place. No more special interests, and giving these people a pass because they are not Canadians. This is Canada and we have Canadian traditions, learn them and be part or stay out of them completely. No we do not want to blend these into other lands traditions in any way. I must say that I am disappointed that we now have to push our way just so we can keep our traditional ways.

They are getting away with it because people are "afraid" to cause any "waves". We've allowed them to squash our views, our opinions...and any forms of criticisms. It had been quite an effective tool, this use of accusations of bigotry for everything said that goes against their views and demands! We've even made our own governments bow down and appease (afraid of being labelled), even if it meant chipping away at true Canadian values.

That is why people ought to wake up! Do not fear the labels that they hurl at you! These labels are so commonly used and abused...that they're practically meaningless. Being called a "bigot" these days amounts to nothing more than just being called, a "jerk!"

Speak up! Give your criticisms if you have any! Don't be afraid to call a spade, a spade!

[Army Guy]

normanchateau:

"Afghanistan reconstruction efforts have also missed targets and disappointed government officials. Appathurai said corruption is rife in the newly elected government and President Hamid Karzai should remove those officials suspected of corruption immediately.

Yes reconstruction efforts have missed target dates, but i'd like to add there is some what of a war going on, and reconstruction projects are large magnets for taliban activity, as confirm by the latest string of Canadian deaths most working on reconstruction projects.

President Karzai approved setting up what was called by the Taliban a "vice-and-virtue department." During Taliban rule police from the vice-and-virtue department patrolled the streets and arrested men who did not have long-enough beards, and women who were not being escorted by a male relative. President Karzai is said to have given into pressure by an Islamic council, which ordered resurrection of the department to prevent further influences of Western culture taking hold. Afghanistan's Interior Minister, the Ministry of Hajj, the Ministry of Religious Affairs, and the Supreme Court drafted the proposal.

The vice and virture department as been "purposed" and is unlikely to be approved, the idea behind it was to fight coruption within the government, not to used as the taliban once used it...again your not reporting or covering both sides of the debate here norm...Funny this is the first site that poped up on goggle. Your jumping to conclusions here on something that has not even been put into practice or even knowing WHY it is being put foward in the government in the first place...your also assuming it will have the same structure and SOP's as the Taliban used...Again you complain about the corruption in thier government then stomp all over thier efforts to bring it under control...what is your solution norm...

My Webpage

[normanchateau]

For example the starter of this thread has always tried to make points about gay rights and things in every thread he does. Even when gay is not an issue, he will try and make it so. So yes, I suppose he is gay and that to him is top priority in all things he does. We let that slip by, mostly because it really is not worth the argument.

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm as heterosexual as you are, that is, assuming you are heterosexual.

Does pushing a particular position always have to involve self-interest and selfishness? For example, if I strongly and repeatedly argue that we should lower taxes on those in the lowest tax bracket, does this mean I'm in the lowest tax bracket? When Stephen Harper on July 1st, 2006, raised the income taxes on those in the lowest tax bracket I thought this was absolutely wrong even though I'm in the highest tax bracket.

And my point about Harper opposing Bill C-250 is not a point about gay rights. The point is that Harper is a so-con. Some people would rather deny it but Harper voted against legislation making it a hate crime to advocate or promote the killing of homosexuals. This doesn't mean Harper hates homosexuals and lesbians. This doesn't mean Harper is saying we should kill homosexuals. This does suggest Harper is a so-con. He did in fact vote against legislation making it a hate crime to advocate or promote the killing of homosexuals. Because of C-250, Section 318 of the Criminal Code of Canada now states that it's a hate crime to advocate the killing of homosexuals. The legislation passed overwhelmingly thanks to the Liberals, NDP and BQ.

[watching&waiting]

Or maybe he voted that way because he saw no need to further protect gays and lesbeins because he felt they have way too much protection so far in our society. He may have just decided that good plain old family values are what we should be pushing. Not a Sexual life style that can only prey on others children as they can never reproduce their own naturally.

Also my case in point is that you bring ever thread to again talk about this. This thread is about Democracy in Afghanistan. I do not see Democracy as having sexual orientation to be part of it. In fact I believe that the bedrooms should be left out of all governments, except when protecting the rights of minors and children. So yes I find you obvious predeliction with gay issues to be bordered on obssession.

Personally I do not care of they kill gays in Afghanistan or not. It was not so long ago gays were imprisoned here in Canada. Also there were earlier times when they were just cast out of any villages and left on their own to die. So what is happening in Afghanistan is a change is moving more towards a democracy, and in that given enough time civil rights will be an important issue, and if they have not killed of all the gay people by then, maybe they can lobby for some gay rights. That is how it happened here but it took over 100 years to happen. So if they change any sooner then that, then they are much better then us at this now aren't they?

I do not want to harp on about this as like I said gay is not the issue in this thread. It is about the new democracy that is starting to grow in Afghanistan. Mostly because our troops and Nato have chosen to give these people a chance to have a say in what and how they live their lives. For some of these people this is the first taste of freedom they have ever known. We need to give them a chance to try out the new ways and see that choices may not be a bad thing. Any thoughts about what gay people do or say in not even a small issue right now.

[normanchateau]

In fact I believe that the bedrooms should be left out of all governments, except when protecting the rights of minors and children.

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately, the Koran takes a different position and no laws in Afghanistan can be "contrary to the laws of Islam". In other words, human rights in Afghanistan are secondary to Islam. This does not fit most Canadians' idea of a democracy.