origins of Modern Israel

[myata]

Are China's activities in Tibet more legal? What about the Janjaweed's in Dharfur?

Do China's activities in Tibet (and Jinjaweed in Dharfur if it matters) make Israel's illegal activities in the occupied territories any more legal?

[jbg]

The bottom line is that when Israel entered into the Oslo Accord with the PLO its intention was to create a two state solution to the peace process and the West Bank would be the basis for the second Palestinian state. Israel since the Oslo Accord, has gone against the spirit of the accord by allowing settlements on the West Bank.

*snip*

I do believe a Palestinian state on the West Bank as an ally in a common market federation with Israel and Jordan is the key to its survival. It needs to think of creating allies to provide a tangible alternative to Arabs who support Hamas , Intifada and Hezbollah.

This is now 13 years after Oslo, 13 years for waiting for the Palestinians to recognize Israel and renounce violant takeover of Israel. Should Israel be "Waiting for Godot"?

[Rue]

"This is now 13 years after Oslo, 13 years for waiting for the Palestinians to recognize Israel and renounce violant takeover of Israel. Should Israel be "Waiting for Godot"?"

No I do not think Israel can wait forever and obviously if it became obvious there is no way to arrive at peace Israel would be forced to unilaterally declare borders. I am hoping it will not come to that.

Call me naive but I do believe the moderate Arab world may have already realized Shiite fundamentalist terrorist inspired Islam in Iran is now seen astheir biggest threat to stability in their countries NOT Israel and this will require many Sunni countries like Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and yes even Syria, Israel's no.2 enemy next to Iran, to seek peace with Israel. Egypt, Lebanon, Saui Arabia and Jordan will never admit it but they are more worried about Islamic extremism in their midst then Zionism.

Yah I may be a naive twit, but I believe it is entirely possible for Israel to arrive at some sort of agreement with the PLO that will be able to freeze out or supercede Hamas and Intifada and Hezbollah and Iran.

Look would you have believed a week ago Israel would have looked the other way and allow Egypt to send weapons to the PLO and clear money to be sent to the PLO? Probably not. Things happen quickly.

Not withstanding my strange theory of Coke and Big Macs, in the short-term I would hate to see Israel alienate the potential allies it needs.

I personally do not see the Shiite backed fundamentalist terrorists taking over the Arab world without some sort of Sunni Muslim response. Yes the Americans have been hit hard and will retreat into a post Iraq shell similiar to post Vietnam but I also believe the Iranian economy is collapsing not withstanding the Iranian petro-chemical relationship with China and this will cause internal upheaval in that country and a rebound effect by pro-Western Iranians anxious for more democracy and freedom. The disasterous centralist economic policies of Iran which funds Shiite terrorist organizations and nonsensical government bureaucratic structures while starving the common Iranian is doomed to failure the same reason Stalinist economics failed. It just is not working. Its not distributing the wealth and the infrastructure of Iran is crumbling.

You remember after the Americans lost the Vietnam War, they in fact went on through Coca Cola and Nike and to turn Vietnam into yet another financial market-place? I think this is alsohappening in the Middle East. Just as Marxism became a moot point in Vietnam so will radical Shiite fundamentalism.

As much as we feel the fundamentalist Muslim terrorists are in control, I personally think they are no different then the Marxists who had a choke hold on Vietnam or China. Yes Al Quaeda and anti-semitism dominate their air-waves and media. At one point Lenin and Mao Tse Tung dominated the Chinese and Vietnamese airwaves as well. Maoism and the Red Book in China was as strong as the fundamentalist Muslim ideology we all seem to be fearing at the present time.

However Nixon and that seductive, corupting free enterprise and its contaminants or pathogens such as MacDonald's and Coke and Nike did what the US Army could not do, and that was to seduce the masses and their governments. This same virus has also already infiltrated the Muslim world and is spreading like wild fire. It is precisely the reason Muslim fundamentalists like the Taliban and Al Quaeda need to resort to terror because their austaire lifestyle can't compete with Nike and Coke. They have already begun to lose.

The MacDonalds-Coca Cola virus has already crept into the psyche of the same young Arabs who to terrorism when they can't find a job.

One these terrorists or potential terrorists get a taste of Nike and Coke, just like the Chinese or Vietnamese or any other radical militant movement, they will succumb.

Nothing blunts extremist ideology like a steady job and a taste of affluence. The only problem in the Middle East is that the affluence until now has been kept

to an elite group of sob's but it is only a matter of time, until the masses taste it.

Call me a naive fool and a cynic at the same time because I believe Islamic extremism is a symptom of rampant poverty and unemployment and nothing a redstribiton of jobs and wealth can't offset.

In the short-term, yes there is danger but in the long term I see Big Macs and Coke doing what no American soldier or Israeli soldier or Arab moderate to date has been able to do. Do not underestimate the Big Mac syndrome. Look at China. Look at Russia. It took down two of the mightiest empires supposedly in our day without a bullet just high cholesterol and saturated fat.

I appreciate by Big Mac theory imight sound foolish but I believe in the end, Beyonce Knowles and Hip Hop, greed and financial corpution will dictate the consequences of the future in the Middle East not Islamic fundamentalism.

In any event I would hate to see Israel alienate potential allies is all I am saying.

[Rue]

deleted redundant post

[jbg]

"This is now 13 years after Oslo, 13 years for waiting for the Palestinians to recognize Israel and renounce violant takeover of Israel. Should Israel be "Waiting for Godot"?"

No I do not think Israel can wait forever and obviously if it became obvious there is no way to arrive at peace Israel would be forced to unilaterally declare borders. I am hoping it will not come to that.

Call me naive but I do believe the moderate Arab world may have already realized Shiite fundamentalist terrorist inspired Islam in Iran is now seen astheir biggest threat to stability in their countries NOT Israel and this will require many Sunni countries like Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and yes even Syria, Israel's no.2 enemy next to Iran, to seek peace with Israel. Egypt, Lebanon, Saui Arabia and Jordan will never admit it but they are more worried about Islamic extremism in their midst then Zionism.

Yah I may be a naive twit, but I believe it is entirely possible for Israel to arrive at some sort of agreement with the PLO that will be able to freeze out or supercede Hamas and Intifada and Hezbollah and Iran.

Rue, I love your optimism. But if the Arabs were that pragmatic, they would have used their oil wealth to build a civil society rather than settle ancient scores.

[Figleaf]

FYI: regarding Israel's intentions (Israel approves new West bank settlement: BBC story). Reminds me of the late Oslo accord in 8 years of which population of the settlements grew by several hundred thousands. Looks like peace talk is coming from one end of the mouth while land grabs continue from the other.

This used to be a military post of the IDF. They used to farm the area around their post. Then 35 Yeshiva students preparing for service in the Israeli Army lived there in a bunch of trailers. Its situated in the Jordan Valley. Now it appeats 40 settlers removed from a settlement in Gaza will live there.

The bottom line is its 40 people.

The bottom line is it's not Israel's land and settling there suggests it has no intention of making a just peace with the Palestinians.

Olmert said if he can't arrive at an agreement with Palestinians by 2008, he will unilaterally carve out a map in Jordan and move all the Israelis to the West side of the line he draws.

What fantasyland is that policy coming from??? Carve up Jordan!?!?

[jbg]

Olmert said if he can't arrive at an agreement with Palestinians by 2008, he will unilaterally carve out a map in Jordan and move all the Israelis to the West side of the line he draws.

What fantasyland is that policy coming from??? Carve up Jordan!?!?

What else can Olmert realistically do?

[Figleaf]

Olmert said if he can't arrive at an agreement with Palestinians by 2008, he will unilaterally carve out a map in Jordan and move all the Israelis to the West side of the line he draws.

What fantasyland is that policy coming from??? Carve up Jordan!?!?

What else can Olmert realistically do?

Withdraw to the Green Line.

[jbg]

What else can Olmert realistically do?

Withdraw to the Green Line.

Ex-Jerusalem of course.

[ft.niagara]

What fantasyland is that policy coming from??? Carve up Jordan!?!?

No, a giant land fill into the Mediterranean Sea. NYC has been very successful in making land out of reclaimed sea.

[Figleaf]

What else can Olmert realistically do?

Withdraw to the Green Line.

Ex-Jerusalem of course.

Realistically, I think Israel could hold Jerusalem de facto with little objection from anyone, if they were willing to acknowledge/accept that they thereby hold a trust for all humanity (and behave accordingly, of course).

[moderateamericain]

gonna make this short and sweet

Two states

Palastine

Israel

Forget going back to pre-xxxx borders, lets just move on, give them gaza and the west bank as it is now, and move on.

Is this going to happen when Countries leaders in the region want to wipe Israel out No, but hey if you really wanna take a true stab at stability and peace follow the dictum of:KISS. which means keep it simple,stupid.

Do i expect the Arabs to ever stop attacking the Jews, nope. Likewise i dont expect the Jews to stop retaliating for being attacked. And whats more i even understand it. If my neighbor attacked my family, id give him the most savage beating of his life. Sorry hate it for you buddy, stay away from my family. Some of you wanna make it to this great complex thing, its really not. Its as simple old fashion, lay a hand on me and im gonna put two in your chest and one in your head. And it goes both ways.

[Rue]

"Realistically, I think Israel could hold Jerusalem de facto with little objection from anyone, if they were willing to acknowledge/accept that they thereby hold a trust for all humanity (and behave accordingly, of course)."

Of course this advise coming from someone in the position to lecture others on what is humane and moral.

How Christian of you.

Got news for you. If you bothered to look at how the Muslims administered Jerusalem prior to Israel taking control of East Jerusalem...if you bothered to find out what the Muslims did to BOTH Jewish adn Christian property and artifacts prior to Israel coming in in 1967, you wouldn't write such stupid things.

The Muslim world demonstrated a complete and utter lack of respect. They urinated and defecated on Jewish sites. They destroyed and defaced Jewish sites and stole and sold priceless Jewish artificacts.

Since Israel has administered the East side of Jerusalem it has protected not jsut Jewish but Muslim and Christian sites, something you are completely ignorant of because you have no clue what is going on in Jerusalem but shoot off at the mouth like you are an expert. Get your self-righteous ass to Jerusalem and see with your own eyes what is being administered and by who.

Israel already administers Christian and Muslim sites in a trust run by an inter-faith council.

But of course why confuse reality with your lectures to Israel.

[Figleaf]

"Realistically, I think Israel could hold Jerusalem de facto with little objection from anyone, if they were willing to acknowledge/accept that they thereby hold a trust for all humanity (and behave accordingly, of course)."

Of course this advise coming from someone in the position to lecture others on what is humane and moral.

How Christian of you.

Rue, stow the misplaced hostility.

(And just FYI, I disavowed Christianity as a moral arbiter quite some time ago, so your attempt to use religion as a weapon is wasted on me.)

Got news for you.

Doubt it.

If you bothered to look at how the Muslims administered Jerusalem prior to Israel taking control of East Jerusalem...if you bothered to find out what the Muslims did to BOTH Jewish adn Christian property and artifacts prior to Israel coming in in 1967, you wouldn't write such stupid things.

I think you are going insane. My comment has nothing whatsoever to do with how Muslims administered anything, anywhere, ever. I can't imagine what connection my ignorance or knowledge of it might have to the point I made.

The Muslim world demonstrated a complete and utter lack of respect. They urinated and defecated on Jewish sites. They destroyed and defaced Jewish sites and stole and sold priceless Jewish artificacts.

Okay, that's bad. So what's it got to do with this discussion?

Since Israel has administered the East side of Jerusalem it has protected not jsut Jewish but Muslim and Christian sites, something you are completely ignorant of because you have no clue what is going on in Jerusalem but shoot off at the mouth ...

Speaking of shooting your mouth off, contrary to your groundless accusation, I actually am well aware that Israel is credited with generally doing a very good job of protecting heritage. That perception is in fact fundamental to the comment I made, that Israel could likely be accepted as a custodian of Jerusalem in a settlement of the middle east condundrum. Really, I don't get what you're on about. Did you misunderstand my position, perhaps?

[Black Dog]

But if the Arabs were that pragmatic, they would have used their oil wealth to build a civil society rather than settle ancient scores.

Uh, jbg, you do realize that its not "their" oil wealth. The Arab world's oil wealth has predominately been swallowed by western-backed oligarchs like the House of Saud and the Kuwati Royals. It's not as if the majority of the people in the region have a say or anything.

[jbg]

But if the Arabs were that pragmatic, they would have used their oil wealth to build a civil society rather than settle ancient scores.

Uh, jbg, you do realize that its not "their" oil wealth. The Arab world's oil wealth has predominately been swallowed by western-backed oligarchs like the House of Saud and the Kuwati Royals. It's not as if the majority of the people in the region have a say or anything.

For once we agree. The constant rioting and disorders in the Arab world are the result of colonialist oppression and Zionism-induced despair and the immiseration of the proletariat. It's what happens when the enslaving bourgeois (sp) class runs out of economic rents to milk, so to improve their standard of living they have to exploit the working people of Palestine. As you correctly point out, the capitalist swine stole all the oil wealth produced by the hard-working Arabs who explored for and developed the oil fields, pipelines and export facilities.

The Arabs are constantly building, and having the fruits of their labors stolen by thieving Zionist, apartheidist and colonialist central bankers; the same ones that brought down the Twin Towers in order to villanize the poor, innocent and peaceful Arab populations and justify recolonization.