Canada/China Relations

[Argus]

Nancy Hughes Thomas is President and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce representing more than 170,000 Canadian businesses. Here's what she thinks of Harper's performance on China:

- The Harper government has put in a poor performance on the international trade front and must make it a ''priority,'' the president of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce said Thursday in Vancouver.

"Like it or not, trade is absolutely vital to Canada and there are major concerns about the current situation." Anthony said. "Canada needs the same sort of presence in China that the U.S., Australia and other global competitors have." she said.

As I've already pointed out, while there are opportunities in China for western corporate interests to make profits, the way the Chinese operate, at present, does not really benefit Canada. Someone do show me where my thinking is wrong here.

We do wind up selling them some raw materials, true. But the money coming into Canada from that is vastly outweighed by the money going out of Canada to buy Chinese manufactured goods. Furthermore, the stuff we sell them, for the most part, does not result in a lot of jobs in Canada - not compared to the manufacturing jobs we're losing and have lost because of cheap Chinese imports.

That's quite aside from the moral question of being good trading buddies with brutal murderers.

We would be better off recognizing Taiwan and dealing with them. They'd be so grateful we'd become their favorite trading partner and we'd find all kinds of opportunities there.

[Argus]

Yah and I'm going to sit in my office all day and wait for customers to come to me.

I'll make tons of money! I'll sell all my products! All I have to do is wait for the customer to decide to buy.

It is sales. We have resources, we need to SELL them. This is how we make money. We don't make money if we don't have buyers. Period.

IMO who cares what the customer does in his own country? I am a selfish, capitalist I guess.

So if Paul Bernardo shows up at your office you'd grin and shake hands and give him a big old hug and ask him how you can possibly help make his life better. Is that it?

[normanchateau]

Nancy Hughes Thomas is President and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce representing more than 170,000 Canadian businesses. Here's what she thinks of Harper's performance on China:

- The Harper government has put in a poor performance on the international trade front and must make it a ''priority,'' the president of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce said Thursday in Vancouver.

"Like it or not, trade is absolutely vital to Canada and there are major concerns about the current situation." Anthony said. "Canada needs the same sort of presence in China that the U.S., Australia and other global competitors have." she said.

But the money coming into Canada from that is vastly outweighed by the money going out of Canada to buy Chinese manufactured goods.

We would be better off recognizing Taiwan and dealing with them. They'd be so grateful we'd become their favorite trading partner and we'd find all kinds of opportunities there.

Canadian imports from Taiwan already are triple the level of Canadian exports to Taiwan.

http://www.asiapacificbusiness.ca/data/tra...?Country=Taiwan

[Argus]

Nancy Hughes Thomas is President and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce representing more than 170,000 Canadian businesses. Here's what she thinks of Harper's performance on China:

- The Harper government has put in a poor performance on the international trade front and must make it a ''priority,'' the president of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce said Thursday in Vancouver.

"Like it or not, trade is absolutely vital to Canada and there are major concerns about the current situation." Anthony said. "Canada needs the same sort of presence in China that the U.S., Australia and other global competitors have." she said.

But the money coming into Canada from that is vastly outweighed by the money going out of Canada to buy Chinese manufactured goods.

We would be better off recognizing Taiwan and dealing with them. They'd be so grateful we'd become their favorite trading partner and we'd find all kinds of opportunities there.

Canadian imports from Taiwan already are triple the level of Canadian exports to Taiwan.

http://www.asiapacificbusiness.ca/data/tra...?Country=Taiwan

Unsurprising. That's pretty much the way it is with all Asian countries. But if we established a particularly close trading relationship with Taiwan we might be able to do something about that. At the very least, I would rather have our trade profiting the Taiwanese than the Chinese.

[Canadian Blue]

I don't mind supporting the troops and giving them money to do their job either. But Harper's appointment of a defense industry lobbyist to the position of Minister of National Defence was pandering to special interest groups.

There were potential conflict-of-interest issues early in his term as one of the first major issues the Conservatives pledged they would sort out is the replacement of the Forces 'tactical airlift' fleet. One of the most prominient companies bidding for the contract to replace the present fleet of C-130 Hercules Turboprops is Airbus S.A.S. for whom O'Connor worked as a lobbyist until February 2004, lobbying the former Liberal government to purchase the airplane that would become the Airbus A400M for its tactical airlift fleet."

I agree, he should have appointed Laurie Hawn, but I guess they didn't want to appear to be "too western based". As well O'Connor was a former General, so I'd imagine he'd be on the list of people who would be considered for the job. I'd trust O'Connor's judgements over those of our previous Minister's of Defense. Until O'Connor is shown to be involved in some corruption then I will say more about him. But their is no reason to fire him.

You'd be shocked at some of the policies of the previous government which were incompetent with regards to the military. Especially during the early 90's and the whole scandal with the Airborne Regiment.

PS: I don't mind criticism of the government, but when it gets too the point of just being critical for the sake of being critical, its just annoying. Especially if a member thinks the government doesn't do anything right.

[normanchateau]

Nancy Hughes Thomas is President and CEO of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce representing more than 170,000 Canadian businesses. Here's what she thinks of Harper's performance on China:

- The Harper government has put in a poor performance on the international trade front and must make it a ''priority,'' the president of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce said Thursday in Vancouver.

"Like it or not, trade is absolutely vital to Canada and there are major concerns about the current situation." Anthony said. "Canada needs the same sort of presence in China that the U.S., Australia and other global competitors have." she said.

But the money coming into Canada from that is vastly outweighed by the money going out of Canada to buy Chinese manufactured goods.

We would be better off recognizing Taiwan and dealing with them. They'd be so grateful we'd become their favorite trading partner and we'd find all kinds of opportunities there.

Canadian imports from Taiwan already are triple the level of Canadian exports to Taiwan.

http://www.asiapacificbusiness.ca/data/tra...?Country=Taiwan

Unsurprising. That's pretty much the way it is with all Asian countries. But if we established a particularly close trading relationship with Taiwan we might be able to do something about that.

With negotiators like Harper and Emerson handling this, Taiwan will give Canada as much as the US did in the softwood lumber deal.

And would you want Trade Minister Emerson to handle this given that he's made it perfectly clear that he wants to improve trade with China? Here's the latest on Emerson and China:

http://www.canada.com/topics/finance/story...e43&k=33755

I wonder if Emerson, in his worst nightmares, imagined what Harper's attitude to China was when Harper offered him a cabinet position in order to get him to switch parties.

[Drea]

IMO, regardless of the level of "human rights" ... we need to trade with China. Just like we need to trade with the USA.

We need money -- we have resources to sell.

It is not up to us to determine the human rights in any given country. It is up to us to make sure our country makes money (sells resources).

*snip*

Money is the bottom line.

Then don't lecture Israel on the "rights" of Palestinians.

What does trade with China have to do with the Isreal/Palestine confict?

Hey if Palestine has a product I want (or one they want to buy from me) I'd buy it/sell it.

Hey if Iseal has a product I want (or one they want to buy from me) I'd buy it/sell it.

We Canadians have had it much too easy trading with our southern neighbour who's human rights are about the same as ours. Now we need to access new markets. Why do we let the human rights in any given country determine whether or not we need their money. Money is money IMO.

And yes Argus, if Bernardo showed up I'd sell to him

China = Paul Benardo = Palestine ----> oy yoy yoy

[scribblet]

You'd be shocked at some of the policies of the previous government which were incompetent with regards to the military. Especially during the early 90's and the whole scandal with the Airborne Regiment.

PS: I don't mind criticism of the government, but when it gets too the point of just being critical for the sake of being critical, its just annoying. Especially if a member thinks the government doesn't do anything right.

This is a proud moment for Canada and our values, finally, we have a PM willing to act instead of mouthing empty Liberal slogans about human rights and Canadian values, where revelations of Chinese spying was swept under the rug, and human rights violations were winked at.

Yes trade with China has increased but we are buying from them, and we know China covets our energy and natural resources so why shouldn't we stand up to Chinese fascism. Although Paul Martin's (now son's) business and JC's Power Corp, have made a killing there.

Stephen Harper fortunately for us has no personal stake in appeasing China.

[Remiel]

So, how are we planning to penalize the US for its recent human rights abuses? Any ideas, guys?

[Higgly]

This is a proud moment for Canada and our values, finally, we have a PM willing to act instead of mouthing empty Liberal slogans about human rights and Canadian values, where revelations of Chinese spying was swept under the rug, and human rights violations were winked at.

Yes trade with China has increased but we are buying from them, and we know China covets our energy and natural resources so why shouldn't we stand up to Chinese fascism. Although Paul Martin's (now son's) business and JC's Power Corp, have made a killing there.

Stephen Harper fortunately for us has no personal stake in appeasing China.

Well it's grand to see this thread coming back to its roots after having taken the scenic route through the usual specious and irrelevant axe grinding related to the pet issues of all the usual suspects.

For my money, the main purpose of Harper's discussions with Hu should have been the fate of Huseyin Celil. This is deja Arar all over again. Instead of quietly pushing this very important issue at the very highest level (and how often do those opportunities come?), Mr. Harper chose to grand-stand and ended up with a 'walk-past' while the coffee was being served.

The world neeeds to be made to understand that the lives of Canadian citizens are not to be trifled with. Instead we have the same ham-fisted bungling that we got with the Liberals regarding Maher Arar.

Abroad and in trouble? Who are you gonna call? Certainly not the half-wits in Ottawa. Better off carrying a wad of yankee dollahs to pay bribes.

Standing up in front of the press and shouting about Human Rights prior to meeting with the leader of China is just not very smart.

First Kyoto, then the Income Trust debacle, and now this. Mr. Harper can't seem to stop from skating off-side.

[jbg]

IMO, regardless of the level of "human rights" ... we need to trade with China. Just like we need to trade with the USA.

We need money -- we have resources to sell.

It is not up to us to determine the human rights in any given country. It is up to us to make sure our country makes money (sells resources).

*snip*

Money is the bottom line.

Then don't lecture Israel on the "rights" of Palestinians.

What does trade with China have to do with the Isreal/Palestine confict?

My point is that people here say trade with China is essential because of money, and yet hector Israel (note spelling) over human rights. That is rank hypocrisy of the worst kind.

Hey if Palestine has a product I want (or one they want to buy from me) I'd buy it/sell it.

Hey if Iseal Israel has a product I want (or one they want to buy from me) I'd buy it/sell it.

What does Palestine sell?

[Drea]

That wasn't the point jbg and you know it.

(Isreal -- goodness, goodness there was a typo in my earlier post; did that offend you? Pffffffffft -- and Palestine are not -- wow, no kidding! -- the topic here. You brought it/them up, the topic is trade with China and it's alleged human rights violations)

I say human rights be damned -- we have a product to sell!

I don't believe in telling other countries that they should "be like us" or we won't sell our product to them. I say take their money! Why else do business? Business is not charity. Business' only reason for being is m-o-n-e-y. All money is equal, imo.

[watching&waiting]

The issue of human rights should always be brought up when there has been a citizen of our country brought to charges in another country. Especially when they are extradided there by a third country, not reccognizing our passport and citizenship.

I am not saying you tie this to trade or anything else, but you do have to take a stand on the issues as they occur. The fact that many believe that China would make trade an issue over the human rights complaint, is nothing more then conjecture by those who are just trying to find anything at all possible to throw at Harper and his goverment. I myself do not think China will be in anyway slighted by our pushing for the human rights and the improper extradition of one of our citizens to there country. To me these are seperate issues and yes while they can be address during trade meetings, they can also be done thru dipolmatic channels as well.

Trade with China is a seperate issue and one where China buys raw materials from us and we buy finished good from them. This is the only way China has to support what is probably the worlds largest army. Chine can not exist without materials from outside interests. The many chnages that have been made in China over the last half century, are becoming more and more in keeping with the fact that China knows it has a place in the present world, but to keep that place they also need to be more forth coming in some of their own issues, especially when they are at cross purposes to other countries they do business with. I think that a much stronger stand on the human rights, and especially those towards one of our citizens, is something China will respect more then the bow to capitulate that has been the past from Canada.

[jdobbin]

China's ambassador criticizes Harper.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/061121/...al/canada_china

[jbg]

China's ambassador criticizes Harper.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/061121/...al/canada_china

"Acknowledging (the) diversity of the world we share, and learning from each other with tolerance and respect, will prove far more productive for common progress and prosperity than standing aloof and pointing fingers at each other," Ambassador Lu Shumin told a business luncheon.

Maybe China doesn't have much to criticize about Canada. The situations are not symetrical and we should stop pretending they are.

[jdobbin]

Maybe China doesn't have much to criticize about Canada. The situations are not symetrical and we should stop pretending they are.

It doesn't look like Canada is having much luck getting access to its Canadian citizen. I have no idea what policy would work but I guess Canada should be prepared to have a hostile relationship with China for some time to come.

Still, there is no explanation why Canada was hostile with China even before its citizen was taken.

[jbg]

Maybe China doesn't have much to criticize about Canada. The situations are not symetrical and we should stop pretending they are.

It doesn't look like Canada is having much luck getting access to its Canadian citizen. I have no idea what policy would work but I guess Canada should be prepared to have a hostile relationship with China for some time to come.

Still, there is no explanation why Canada was hostile with China even before its citizen was taken.

Frankly, I'd both Harper and Bush to announce they'd support Taiwanese independence, a separate UN seat and ambassadorial recognition by the US and Canada. The current setup is as unrealistic as the pre-1971 policy of not recognizing the Communist military victory.

[geoffrey]

Agreed. We need to lose the one-China policy. We can't support such idiocy.

I think the same applies in Tibet... and with the oppression of freedoms in China. We need to be outspoken. Turning a blind eye to protect a trading partnership is rather ridiculous.

The US has a different situation, they are fairly dependant on China for cheap goods. In Canada, we have an edge. They require our coal and oil, they have no choice but to suck up the criticism.

[jbg]

The US has a different situation, they are fairly dependant on China for cheap goods. In Canada, we have an edge. They require our coal and oil, they have no choice but to suck up the criticism.

I think China still needs to sell to Walmart, K-Mart, et. al. I think the US's policy in this area is as morally bankrupt as the "wet foot-dry foot" policy as relates to Cubans.

[abcon99]

I live in Alberta, and if the spying buggers in China don't want to buy our natural resources, then they can go fly a kite, cause somebody else will. They need our stuff we don't need them. We can get cheap goods from a number of other poor areas. So Prime Minister Harper can kick the Chinese President right in the family jewels for all I care.

[jdobbin]

Frankly, I'd both Harper and Bush to announce they'd support Taiwanese independence, a separate UN seat and ambassadorial recognition by the US and Canada. The current setup is as unrealistic as the pre-1971 policy of not recognizing the Communist military victory.

And you'd support fighting China in a war when they attacked Taiwan?

This is probably a big factor in having a relationship with Taiwan by not recognizing them.

[jbg]

Frankly, I'd both Harper and Bush to announce they'd support Taiwanese independence, a separate UN seat and ambassadorial recognition by the US and Canada. The current setup is as unrealistic as the pre-1971 policy of not recognizing the Communist military victory.

And you'd support fighting China in a war when they attacked Taiwan?

This is probably a big factor in having a relationship with Taiwan but not recognizing them.

A disgrace is a disgrace, as much as a proof is a proof (to borrow Canada's founding motto).

[jdobbin]

A disgrace is a disgrace, as much as a proof is a proof (to borrow Canada's founding motto).

I like America's motto better: "We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."