White poppies

[JerrySeinfeld]

Get real, Nov. 11 is for sure about fighting for freedom, and remembering those who fought for it freedom if they had not we would all be speaking German now if we were alive.

Exactly. But the lefties are so wrapped up in their twisted diatribes about whats not worth fighting for or what fighting is or who supports what troops when they're not fighting for something that you don't believe in after not supporting people who support the troops who are fighting for a cause in which they don't believe....blah blah blah...that they don't even get the basics.

The troops 60 years ago fought for our freedom and the freedom of others. DOGGY somehow wants to twist that and accuse you of being "anti-war-hero" because you state that simple fact.

Sometimes ya gotta wonder what colour ths sky is in their world.

[August1991]

I'm of two minds on this. I'm proud to wear the Red Poppy, but I respect the message of the White (it's certainly not disrespectful in my boks) and think the two are not mutually exclusive.

Does that mean a person can wear both?

[JerrySeinfeld]

I'm of two minds on this. I'm proud to wear the Red Poppy, but I respect the message of the White (it's certainly not disrespectful in my boks) and think the two are not mutually exclusive.

Does that mean a person can wear both?

The messages are conflicting - to wear both would be to say:

"I remember WWII and the great sacrifice made by our soldiers"

and

"There are better ways to colve conflict than by killing strangers"

simultaneously.

While the two are not complete opposites, surely the respect we have for our soldiers for killing the enemy flies directly in the face of the second message?

[Black Dog]

Does that mean a person can wear both?

What are you, a wise guy?

[kimmy]

It's implicit in the "pro peace" message utilizing a symbol that remembers that we FOUGHT A WAR for what was right and good.

Only people who actually know what the red poppy represents should be allowed to comment on this.

So, I take it that you agree that the veterans have the right to be offended by this, then?

The mindset that believes Hitler could have been beaten without fighting him is a mindset that dooms us to repeat history.

Who expressed that belief?

Well, the article mentions that the white poppies are purchased from the UK's Peace Pledge Union.

The information on the http://www.ppu.org.uk/ppu/index.html certainly seems to suggest that no war is justifiable.

Children are among the most vulnerable of human beings. Yet some societies conscript children as young as 7 into their armies. Some societies (including the UK) operate foreign policies leading to the deaths of thousands of children world-wide. Few societies are immune to such child abuse. If we agree that the care and education of children are important priorities, we should be urgently raising awareness of the causes of violent conflict and looking for the means to prevent it, at all levels, at all costs.

This is affirmed in their pledge:

‘War is a crime against humanity. I renounce war, and am therefore

determined not to support any kind of war. I am also determined to work for the removal of all causes of war.’ PPU pledge

Read those again, because this is key:

"we should be urgently raising awareness of the causes of violent conflict and looking for the means to prevent it, at all levels, at all costs."

"I renounce war, and am therefore determined not to support any kind of war."

So, yes, based on their pledge, they do say that going to war against Hitler was wrong. It says they pledge not to support any kind of war. It says they it should have been avoided at all cost.

The people who buy the white poppies might not see them as contradictory to the red poppies, but the people who *make* the white poppies certainly intend them that way. The red poppies are intended to honor the veterans. The white poppies, according to their makers, are a complete rejection of war... they say that the veterans who fought against Nazi Germany were wrong to do so. They say that war should have been avoided "at all costs".

While I certainly support peace as a general principle, I strongly reject the views expressed by the Peace Pledge Union. As costly as fighting might be, sometimes not fighting is more costly. Avoiding WWII "at all cost" would have come at an unthinkable cost to our humanity.

-k

[Black Dog]

So, I take it that you agree that the veterans have the right to be offended by this, then?

They have the right to be offended, sure. But, copyright issues aside, I'm not sure why they are offended. I am, after all, still waiting for someone, anyone, to explain to me why this is such a grave insult.

So, yes, based on their pledge, they do say that going to war against Hitler was wrong. It says they pledge not to support any kind of war. It says they it should have been avoided at all cost.

Nice job cut and pasting two seperate ideas.

We should be urgently raising awareness of the causes of violent conflict and looking for the means to prevent it, at all levels, at all costs.

So you think we should not work to prevent violent conflict and that war should not be avoided if possible?

The people who buy the white poppies might not see them as contradictory to the red poppies, but the people who *make* the white poppies certainly intend them that way.

Bullshit.

they say that the veterans who fought against Nazi Germany were wrong to do so.

Please provide a cite for this statement. Thanks.

[fellowtraveller]

They have the right to be offended, sure. But, copyright issues aside, I'm not sure why they are offended. I am, after all, still waiting for someone, anyone, to explain to me why this is such a grave insult.

Because the peace advocacy group has chosen virtually the same symbol -the poppy- to represent their cause.

I very much doubt the vets/Legion have anything against the casue of the peaceniks, and I know for a fact that plenty of vets would count themselves as peaceniks after their experiences - but using the poppy is insensitive at best.

[kimmy]

We should be urgently raising awareness of the causes of violent conflict and looking for the means to prevent it, at all levels, at all costs.

So you think we should not work to prevent violent conflict and that war should not be avoided if possible?

Their website and their pledge doesn't make mention of "if possible". It speaks in absolutes:

'War is a crime against humanity. I renounce war, and am therefore determined not to support any kind of war. I am also determined to work for the removal of all causes of war.’

It says right there that war is a "crime against humanity," that they "renounce war", and refuse to support *any* kind of war. How does this allow for even the *possibility* that war might be justifiable?

The people who buy the white poppies might not see them as contradictory to the red poppies, but the people who *make* the white poppies certainly intend them that way.

Bullshit.

Again, it's implicit in their pledge. How can you honor our veterans while also endorsing the idea that war is a crime against humanity and rejecting the notion that any war is necessary?

they say that the veterans who fought against Nazi Germany were wrong to do so.

Please provide a cite for this statement. Thanks.

Again, the pledge itself. Visit their website: http://www.ppu.org.uk/peace_act/pa_index.html

When their pledge itself categorically rejects *any* war, what room does that leave to say that sometimes it's justified or necessary or right?

I'm pretty supportive of the idea of peace. I think it would be great if there were no more violence. But their pledge isn't simply a pro-peace statement, it indicates a sort of absolutism usually only found in religious fanatics. I can't support the idea that war is a crime against humanity when our history has examples where it was a bigger crime to *not* fight.

-k

[Black Dog]

How can you honor our veterans while also endorsing the idea that war is a crime against humanity and rejecting the notion that any war is necessary?

Sorry, but where's the contradiction?

I can't support the idea that war is a crime against humanity when our history has examples where it was a bigger crime to *not* fight.

Can you name one other than World War 2?

[normanchateau]

Are they an insult, or a legitimate expression the peace movement?

story here

I'm surprised that anyone would not see this as an insult to our veterans and as an insult to those who died fighting in the wars.

Our veterans and those who died fighting our battles deserve our unqualified respect. Surely the peace movement can find a symbol which does not gratuitously offend those we should be thanking.

[normanchateau]

How can you honor our veterans while also endorsing the idea that war is a crime against humanity and rejecting the notion that any war is necessary?

Sorry, but where's the contradiction?

I can't support the idea that war is a crime against humanity when our history has examples where it was a bigger crime to *not* fight.

Can you name one other than World War 2?

OK, I'll bite. Why not World War I?

[watching&waiting]

Blackdog I read what you had to say about what I posted earlier and you had the gull to say I know nothing about the freedom that was fought for. You must be a completely ignorant person. I served with the cadets and reserves for over 10 years. I come from a family where we have more medales from the WWII then you could image. Since my family was of German descent, most of our members were used in the most dangerous missions and operations. We were proudly Canadian, and to have a person like you comment disparagingly upon that is why I hope all these white poppie wearing people stay away from the ceremonies tommorrow. It is for their safety I suggest this because when the feelings that do become present at times like this, are then confronted by these others who basically say all war was wrong, well there may well be some members of families like my own who may take this back to them. I could easily see a riot and maybe a few of these pacifists will know what it is like to be beaten so badly that they never walk, or something just as bad.

This free speech is one thing but to then inflict yourselves on the day that was set to honour all the war dead and those who still are fighting, is just so stupid, that these idiots do not see what could happen. When you learn what responsible freedom is then you can comment but you do not have even one small iota of what it is about. You have shown that to everyone here.

[kimmy]

How can you honor our veterans while also endorsing the idea that war is a crime against humanity and rejecting the notion that any war is necessary?

Sorry, but where's the contradiction?

The white poppy is, according to its manufacturer, an absolute condemnation of all war. But a great many of our veterans, especially those who fought in WWII, strongly believe in the causes they fought for.

The red poppy says "we honor your sacrifice for this country", and the white poppy says "what you did was wrong. fighting was wrong. it was a crime." If that's not a direct contradiction, it's close enough for my tastes.

I can't support the idea that war is a crime against humanity when our history has examples where it was a bigger crime to *not* fight.

Can you name one other than World War 2?

WWII is the easy one to pick because it had a villain that everybody hates and everybody agrees on. However, it was hardly the only situation where armed intervention was right, or where not making armed intervention was wrong. Not going to East Timor or Rwanda was a crime against humanity, in my opinion. How about Darfur? Do you put any faith in the view that "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"? I do.

-k

[Black Dog]

I'm surprised that anyone would not see this as an insult to our veterans and as an insult to those who died fighting in the wars.

Our veterans and those who died fighting our battles deserve our unqualified respect. Surely the peace movement can find a symbol which does not gratuitously offend those we should be thanking.

I can understand why some people might be upset by the co-opting of the poppy. But I can also understand why teh poppy was chosen. If it were up to me, I'd choose something a little different like a White Rose.

OK, I'll bite. Why not World War I?

Because it was totally pointless and preventable. There was no high ideal being served, it was just a squabble between a group of imperial nations.

Blackdog I read what you had to say about what I posted earlier and you had the gull to say I know nothing about the freedom that was fought for. You must be a completely ignorant person. I served with the cadets and reserves for over 10 years. I come from a family where we have more medales from the WWII then you could image. Since my family was of German descent, most of our members were used in the most dangerous missions and operations. We were proudly Canadian, and to have a person like you comment disparagingly upon that is why I hope all these white poppie wearing people stay away from the ceremonies tommorrow. It is for their safety I suggest this because when the feelings that do become present at times like this, are then confronted by these others who basically say all war was wrong, well there may well be some members of families like my own who may take this back to them. I could easily see a riot and maybe a few of these pacifists will know what it is like to be beaten so badly that they never walk, or something just as bad.

Oh yeah, threatening to do violence to people for the crime of promoting peace or having a differing opinion speaks well of your character and your grasp of the fundamental values of our society.

This free speech is one thing but to then inflict yourselves on the day that was set to honour all the war dead and those who still are fighting, is just so stupid, that these idiots do not see what could happen. When you learn what responsible freedom is then you can comment but you do not have even one small iota of what it is about. You have shown that to everyone here.

Are we talking about demonstrations to disrupt Rememberance Day ceremonies? Are we talking about hurling epitheths at veterans? No. We're talking about a small, symoblic gesture of hope for a peaceful world. That you feel this is so outrageous as to justify violence proves your quality, sir.

[JerrySeinfeld]

How can you honor our veterans while also endorsing the idea that war is a crime against humanity and rejecting the notion that any war is necessary?

Sorry, but where's the contradiction?

I can't support the idea that war is a crime against humanity when our history has examples where it was a bigger crime to *not* fight.

Can you name one other than World War 2?

WWII is the easy one to pick because it had a villain that everybody hates and everybody agrees on. However, it was hardly the only situation where armed intervention was right, or where not making armed intervention was wrong. Not going to East Timor or Rwanda was a crime against humanity, in my opinion. How about Darfur? Do you put any faith in the view that "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"? I do.

-k

Kimmy it's pointless arguing with someone who splits hairs. DOGGY sounds like Bill Clinton when he said "it depends upon your definition of the word 'THE' "

Simple: The PPU and it's white symbol opposes war at all costs.

The red poppy commemorates a war, a sacrifice, and a victory against Nazis.

They contradict.

Someone like DOGGY might in his little mini-creation of a world in his brain find a left-wing convoluted rationalization as to why they don't contradict, but to the Poppy-Public the symbols are contradictory. And even to the PPU-mission-researching-public they are contradictory.

It's amazing how you can step away from a disussion, then come back to it and see clearly how a lefty headspinner can take a simple issue like this and actually try to turn it into a legitimate debate about whether or not peace poppies contradict war poppies.

[Black Dog]

The white poppy is, according to its manufacturer, an absolute condemnation of all war. But a great many of our veterans, especially those who fought in WWII, strongly believe in the causes they fought for.

Look at it this way: if the German people condemned war we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The red poppy says "we honor your sacrifice for this country", and the white poppy says "what you did was wrong. fighting was wrong. it was a crime." If that's not a direct contradiction, it's close enough for my tastes.

Saying war is wrong and a crime is not an indictment of those who fight.

WWII is the easy one to pick because it had a villain that everybody hates and everybody agrees on. However, it was hardly the only situation where armed intervention was right, or where not making armed intervention was wrong. Not going to East Timor or Rwanda was a crime against humanity, in my opinion. How about Darfur? Do you put any faith in the view that "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"? I do.

You don't get it. "No war" means, well, just that. If there's no war, then there's no need for self-defence, no need for armed "humanitarian" interventions. That's the whole point.

Of course, it's a pipe dream, but it doesn't hurt to hope.

[Black Dog]

Kimmy it's pointless arguing with someone who splits hairs. DOGGY sounds like Bill Clinton when he said "it depends upon your definition of the word 'THE' "

Are you still here? I thought maye you ducked down to the recruiters. Here, let me help you:Forces.ca

The red poppy commemorates a war, a sacrifice, and a victory against Nazis.

Mighty prescient, those poppy people, coming out with their symbol a good 15 years before the Nazis came along.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Kimmy it's pointless arguing with someone who splits hairs. DOGGY sounds like Bill Clinton when he said "it depends upon your definition of the word 'THE' "

Are you still here? I thought maye you ducked down to the recruiters. Here, let me help you:Forces.ca

The red poppy commemorates a war, a sacrifice, and a victory against Nazis.

Mighty prescient, those poppy people, coming out with their symbol a good 15 years before the Nazis came along.

again - missing the forest for the trees

[JerrySeinfeld]

Look at it this way: if the German people condemned war we wouldn't be having this discussion.

ah yes - the tried and true "John Lennon" approach to foreign policy

again only revealing the different colour sky in your world

[kimmy]

You don't get it. "No war" means, well, just that. If there's no war, then there's no need for self-defence, no need for armed "humanitarian" interventions. That's the whole point.

Of course, it's a pipe dream, but it doesn't hurt to hope.

Until the rest of the world gets on the peace train, you can at least understand why I reject the idea that going to war is never justified, right?

Until all the Hitlers and Pol Pots and Milosevics and all the other people that we've either fought or should have fought are wearing white poppies of their own, I simply can't get on board with a group that says violence is never justified.

-k

[Charles Anthony]

Saying war is wrong and a crime is not an indictment of those who fight.

I agree. It seems like a lot of reflexive-patriots are blind to this view.

Until all the Hitlers and Pol Pots and Milosevics and all the other people that we've either fought or should have fought are wearing white poppies of their own, I simply can't get on board with a group that says violence is never justified.

Can you apply the same logic to the The First World War, The Great War To End All Wars from which both the poppy and Remembrance Day originate?

How can you honor our veterans while also endorsing the idea that war is a crime against humanity and rejecting the notion that any war is necessary?

Easy: by being honest about what happened before November 11th.

On Remembrance Day, I do not feel pride. I feel sorrow for the young men who were forced to defend the greed of merchants by killing other young men they did not know. I also feel profound shame that we would hide the most heinous form of slavery behind patriotism.

We often hear: "If you do not study history, it is bound to repeat itself yadda yadda yadda"

I say: "Why bother study history? It repeats itself."

[Black Dog]

Until the rest of the world gets on the peace train, you can at least understand why I reject the idea that going to war is never justified, right?

Every war ever fought started was justified in the minds of those who started it, no?

On Remembrance Day, I do not feel pride. I feel sorrow for the young men who were forced to defend the greed of merchants by killing other young men they did not know. I also feel profound shame that we would hide the most heinous form of slavery behind patriotism.

Beautifully put, CA.

[Canuck E Stan]

Iwas watching Dragon's Den the other night and saw people presenting their innovative ideas to the Dragons for possible investments.

This topic just gave me an idea that would make millions.

Along with the white poppy for peace let's have a rainbow poppy(or purple, I haven't decided which would sell better)for the same sex cause,the green poppy for the environmental cause,black poppy for the civil rights /black cause.

Double pink poppy for breast cancer cause,a poppy with a band aid on it for the aids cause(band-AID,get it?).

A poppy with fake fur for the animal or seal cause.

A poppy with a center that looks like a pill for the drug cause,poppies made of lettuce for the vegetarian folks,...I could go on and on.

I'm just full of it......ideas that is.

And we could sell all of these during the Vetrans red poppy season of selling just like the white poppy people are doing.

This would distract people into thinking of something else other than dead soldiers.

Not to mention confusing the public into thinking the red poppy,November 11th,Vetrans,dead soldiers are just another a charity cause. The money we make by diverting the red poppy money to other causes,would make us a bundle.

Anybody want to invest in all these important poppycauses?

[geoffrey]

And release them all during the lead up to Rememberance Day!!!

It's really distressing that people have the nerve to tell the vets their brothers (and sisters) that were out there fighting with them died for a ridiculous cause or as BD put it in vein.

I'm sure BD would be proud to express that view under a Nazi regime too... I mean, fighting WWII was ridiculous and all those alternatives (that were tried and failed) were so much better. Right BD? Peace and rolling over for the tyrants is the best way to do business?

Go tell that to a vet's face. If you've got the heart to do it, your a real peice of work.

[Charles Anthony]

I'm sure BD would be proud to express that view under a Nazi regime too... I mean, fighting WWII was

Forget about the Second World War. Do you know why we had the First World War? the war that the war-mongers had the despicable gall to call the War To End All Wars?

Until you can honestly answer why we had the First World War, you are missing the point.

Go tell that to a vet's face. If you've got the heart to do it, your a real peice of work.

If I came across a First World War vet who suffered a mustard gas attack and lived, I would proudly tell him that I am sorry.