CP: Mackay controversy flares anew

[Argus]

I can't say for sure; I imagine he acknowledged it because it was his own personal decision.

Or it could simply be that "bitch" is a term with very gender-specific connotations. It's time for an etymology lesson: bitch means female dog, which should make the gendered nature of the term clear. "Ah," I hear you say. "What of men who are called 'bitches?'" Well, with men, the implication is a bit different. To call a man a bitch is to say "you have the attributes of a woman." Alternately (and increasingly due to its pop culture useage) "bitch" can also be used to question a man's sexuality or masculinity (from the jailhouse term "bitch", which refers to an inmate's sexual subordinate: here: the gender implications are again quite clear.)

All that to say that bitch is, incontrovertibly, a sexist insult by dictionary definition and popular usage. The fact that Spector has apparently admitted as much shows what an asshole he is.

If you want to insult a fat man you use weight, a bald man you use hair, a skinny man that, a short man height, a black man race his race, a polish man his ethnic group, a French man his language, a woman, her gender.

BIG DEAL!!!

When people insult other people they are (gasp) looking for something hurtful to use! What difference does it make what the insult was? Are you implying that anyone who uses the term "bitch" somehow hates women or is more likely to treat them with less respect? There isn't a woman I know who hasn't used the term for other women. So what does that mean?

[Black Dog]

If you want to insult a fat man you use weight, a bald man you use hair, a skinny man that, a short man height, a black man race his race, a polish man his ethnic group, a French man his language, a woman, her gender.

BIG DEAL!!!

When people insult other people they are (gasp) looking for something hurtful to use! What difference does it make what the insult was?

I think it's safe to say that soceity recognizes a sliding scale of insults, with one's attacking race or ethnicity at the top end of the offensiveness scale. We may have become somewhat inured to the use of bitch, but, IMO, the clear sexist implications of it put it up there.

Let me put it this way: Spector used the term bitch precisely because of its gender implications. Would you be as cavalier about someone describing, say, Rahim Jaffer as a "Paki"?

Are you implying that anyone who uses the term "bitch" somehow hates women or is more likely to treat them with less respect? There isn't a woman I know who hasn't used the term for other women. So what does that mean?

I'm implying that the word itself is sexist and its useage implies sexist attitudes on the part of the user, or, at minimum, reflects a kind of broad social sexism. As for the argument that "women use it too": so what? Women can't internalize sexist social attitudes? (To be fair, some women embrace the term, in an attempt to "reclaim it" in the same way otehr groups have "reclaimed" terms like "queer". But that's a subject for debate.)

[g_bambino]

I can't say for sure; I imagine he acknowledged it because it was his own personal decision.

Or it could simply be that "bitch" is a term with very gender-specific connotations. It's time for an etymology lesson: bitch means female dog, which should make the gendered nature of the term clear. "Ah," I hear you say. "What of men who are called 'bitches?'" Well, with men, the implication is a bit different. To call a man a bitch is to say "you have the attributes of a woman." Alternately (and increasingly due to its pop culture useage) "bitch" can also be used to question a man's sexuality or masculinity (from the jailhouse term "bitch", which refers to an inmate's sexual subordinate: here: the gender implications are again quite clear.)

All that to say that bitch is, incontrovertibly, a sexist insult by dictionary definition and popular usage. The fact that Spector has apparently admitted as much shows what an asshole he is.

That Spector is an asshole is not in doubt; at least not by me.

But, are you stating that if he had called a man a dick, a cock, or a prick, he would have been equally sexist? After all, it's clear where the gendered nature of those terms is rooted.

[Black Dog]

That Spector is an asshole is not in doubt; at least not by me.

But, are you stating that if he had called a man a dick, a cock, or a prick, he would have been equally sexist? After all, it's clear where the gendered nature of those terms is rooted.

Ah, but they aren't the same at all. Those terms are like asshole or even (and I'll stop short here) c**t: they aren't comments on the individual's personality or character, but simply comparing the individual to a naughty body part in order to express their unpleasantness as an individual. Bitch is a considerably more loaded term with some very specific connotations. To call someone a bitch is to call them malicious, spiteful, domineering, and , above all, a woman. IMO.

[Figleaf]

It's true that Norm Spector is not currently in politics but he was Chief of Staff to Brian Mulroney and

is a political commentator on radio, TV and print media. Hence the media interest. Spector can criticize Belinda Stronach all he wants but needn't resort to sexist terminology.

His comment was crass, but calling someone a bitch is merely a personal insult, not "sexist terminology."

Then why did Spector acknowledge in his interview with Bill Good on CKNW that he would not use the word "bitch" in reference to a man?

Actually, he cited a dictionary definition of bitch which confined its use to women.

[g_bambino]

That Spector is an asshole is not in doubt; at least not by me.

But, are you stating that if he had called a man a dick, a cock, or a prick, he would have been equally sexist? After all, it's clear where the gendered nature of those terms is rooted.

Ah, but they aren't the same at all. Those terms are like asshole or even (and I'll stop short here) c**t: they aren't comments on the individual's personality or character, but simply comparing the individual to a naughty body part in order to express their unpleasantness as an individual. Bitch is a considerably more loaded term with some very specific connotations. To call someone a bitch is to call them malicious, spiteful, domineering, and , above all, a woman. IMO.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. Your argument was that bitch was gender specific; it refers to the female of the canine species. Prick, dick, and cock are similarly gender specific. Asshole, bastard, jerk, etc., are not.

Further, bitch and cock are directed towards, respectively, women and men who are considered to be rude or abrasive, but female dogs and penises (as well as anuses, illegitimate children, and, well, whatever a jerk is) are simply things that have no relevance, in reality, to a person's character; the insulting nature is layered on top of the true meaning of both words.

So, neither the gendered root of each word, nor their similar usage as insults, leads me to see one as more sexist than the other (and, really, I see neither as inherently sexist at all).

[Black Dog]

I'm not sure I can agree with that. Your argument was that bitch was gender specific; it refers to the female of the canine species. Prick, dick, and cock are similarly gender specific. Asshole, bastard, jerk, etc., are not.

Bitch has considerably more implications than "female dog". Which I suppose I should have made clearer earlier.

Ask yourself this: if you call a woman a prick etc., does that have the same connotations as when you call a man a prick? I think it does, which makes the term prick, despite the gendered nature of the object it refers to, a gender neutral term. But, as I've pointed out, there's a distinct difference between calling a woman a bitch and calling a man a bitch. IOW, the meaning of the word varies depending on who its being used on, which I think highlights just how gender specific it is. Get me?

Further, bitch and cock are directed towards, respectively, women and men who are considered to be rude or abrasive, but female dogs and penises (as well as anuses, illegitimate children, and, well, whatever a jerk is) are simply things that have no relevance, in reality, to a person's character; the insulting nature is layered on top of the true meaning of both words.

As above. I can call a man or a woman a "cock" and the meaning ("a rude or abrasive person") remains unchanged. Not so with "bitch". In other words, bitch is reserved, as you say for "rude and abrasive" women (or weak, feminine men), while anybody can be called a cock.

[gerryhatrick]

Calling her a bitch was ignorant.

But the real issue with this topic is that Mackay lied.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The real issue is that this crap is about as important as gay marriage debates, not at all. I could care less what who calls their ex's, position of authority or not. It was not directed as a public commentary applicable to the citizens, it was simply school boy immaturity not worthy of comment.

[gerryhatrick]

It was not directed as a public commentary applicable to the citizens, it was simply school boy immaturity not worthy of comment.

Indeed it was, followed by a bold-faced LIE.

And seeing our foreign minister lie so openly like that is applicable to citizens.

[Figleaf]

I agree. What should happen is everyone should just acknowledge that Peter Mackay is a dishonest person, unfit for public office, and move on.

[normanchateau]

It was not directed as a public commentary applicable to the citizens, it was simply school boy immaturity not worthy of comment.

Indeed it was, followed by a bold-faced LIE.

And seeing our foreign minister lie so openly like that is applicable to citizens.

He has a history of lying. Ask David Orchard.

[Ricki Bobbi]

He has a history of lying. Ask David Orchard.

I think you are the fifth person to bring up poor David Orchard in this thread.

Who gives a f*ck about Orchard? He's so 'loyal' that he's now a Liberal and supporting Dion in the leadership. wrf?

[normanchateau]

He has a history of lying. Ask David Orchard.

I think you are the fifth person to bring up poor David Orchard in this thread.

Who gives a f*ck about Orchard? He's so 'loyal' that he's now a Liberal and supporting Dion in the leadership. wrf?

The political party that David Orchard belonged to no longer exists.

Is not being loyal to a political party worse than lying? Apparently so if you're Belinda Stronach but apparently not if you're David Emerson.

Perhaps its no surprise that the person who called Belinda Stronach a bitch was Brian Mulroney's former Chief of Staff.

Mulroney values loyalty. If I'm not mistaken it was Mulroney and Stronach who were co-conspirators in handing the knife to MacKay with which he backstabbed Orchard.

[Ricki Bobbi]

The political party that David Orchard belonged to no longer exists.

Is not being loyal to a political party worse than lying? Apparently so if you're Belinda Stronach but apparently not if you're David Emerson.

Perhaps its no surprise that the person who called Belinda Stronach a bitch was Brian Mulroney's former Chief of Staff.

Mulroney values loyalty. If I'm not mistaken it was Mulroney and Stronach who were co-conspirators in handing the knife to MacKay with which he backstabbed Orchard.

Normie, you make no sense. What does any of these mean?

[Canuck E Stan]

Is not being loyal to a political party worse than lying? Apparently so if you're Belinda Stronach but apparently not if you're David Emerson.

Perhaps its no surprise that the person who called Belinda Stronach a bitch was Brian Mulroney's former Chief of Staff.

Mulroney values loyalty. If I'm not mistaken it was Mulroney and Stronach who were co-conspirators in handing the knife to MacKay with which he backstabbed Orchard.

I think you're confusing some Shakespearean play with the Orchard story. Julius Caesar maybe?

[Who's Doing What?]

If asking about his dog can get him into this much trouble, someone should get his oppinion on his ex dating Tie Domi.

Maybe something coy about the domi position?

Does he think Domi is scoring more now that he's retired from hockey?

I had better stop.

[Black Dog]

I just wanted to say I re-read this thread and couldn't stop giggling like a 12-year old who's uncovered his dad's stash of skin mags. Heh heh...cock.

Carry on.

[normanchateau]

The political party that David Orchard belonged to no longer exists.

Is not being loyal to a political party worse than lying? Apparently so if you're Belinda Stronach but apparently not if you're David Emerson.

Normie, you make no sense. What does any of these mean?

Which part of the above don't you understand? You condemned David Orchard for not being "loyal" to his party by supporting Dion.

[kimmy]

I just wanted to say I re-read this thread and couldn't stop giggling like a 12-year old who's uncovered his dad's stash of skin mags. Heh heh...cock.

g_bambino thinks he's the cock of the walk. Well I tell you, Black Dog, g_bambino is the cock of nothing!

sorry. Simpsons fans might chuckle, everybody else is scratching their heads. Never mind.

bold-faced

Is the phrase "bold-faced" or "bald-faced"? I've heard both used and I'm never sure which is correct and which is a malapropism.

bitch

While "bitch" is theoretically a sexist insult, it's really kind of lost its punch through over-use and, in particular, through being applied to women who embody qualities that other women actually admire and aspire to.

Spector probably *meant* it as a sexist insult. That says more about Spector than about Stronach. It shows that Spector is a jerk, but mostly it shows that he's just out of touch.

A bitch is assertive, in charge of her life, stands up for herself, takes no crap, and doesn't get pushed around or bullied. In other words, a bitch is a formidable and probably successful woman. A bitch is probably a smart and independant woman who has the strength and resources to not be dependant on a man and not be led around by him. "Bitch" actually sounds like a compliment. The fact that you can go out and buy any number of tee-shirts, jewelry, bumper-stickers, belt-buckles, car-accessories, and the fact that many women buy this stuff and proudly wear it and put it on their cars, is evidence of how the word "bitch" has changed.

If a man calls a woman a bitch, he's probably telling her that he feels intimidated by her, or unable to cope with her independence. Impotent, basically.

Men can also be called bitch, of course, where it has a rather opposite connotation. Calling a man a "bitch" is to cast doubt on his manliness. It suggests that he is physically weak or cowardly. Or it can be a challenge-- a boast that you could best them at some activity, or a boast that you have just done so. Watch the greatest golf movie ever, Happy Gilmore, and observe the confrontation between Adam Sandler and Bob Barker to see this usage of the word illustrated.

David Orchard

It's been pointed out that Peter MacKay broke his promise to David Orchard on an issue of considerable import. People at the time said that MacKay was damaged goods and the loss of credibility would ruin his political career. How many elections has MacKay won since then? Two? Three?

I think those of you trying to represent this latest incident as a blow to MacKay's credibility are reaching.

People recognize this for what it is: a childish dispute that's been blown out of proportion for partisan purposes.

The "dog" remark is fairly tame compared to some of the insults that are flung in the House. The Liberals hoped to score political points by playing up the sexist aspect of it (much like the "knitting" thing last election, if I recall.)

If it's officially ruled that MacKay lied in Parliament... so what? If there's one thing we learned from Hedy Fry, it's that you can get caught in a brazen lie to Parliament without facing any formal consequences.

As for informal consequences... Fry won at least a couple of elections following being caught lying to Parliament. Rahim Jaffer has won several consecutive elections since the radio phone-in show fiasco. Peter MacKay has won several consecutive elections since breaking his promise to David Orchard.

In short, people have bigger stuff on their minds when they go to the voting booth.

-k

[Canuck E Stan]

In short, people have bigger stuff on their minds when they go to the voting booth.

-k

and Politicians will always be "bitchin'" about petty issues.

[Argus]

I agree. What should happen is everyone should just acknowledge that Peter Mackay is a dishonest person, unfit for public office, and move on.

As compared to whom? In amongst that bunch he's practically a saint.

[betsy]

I agree. What should happen is everyone should just acknowledge that Peter Mackay is a dishonest person, unfit for public office, and move on.

Take a good look at the Liberal Party and then let's talk of dishonesty and acknowledgments. How many among the members of the Liberal Party are dishonest?

I would be more critical of the kind of dishonesty that actually steal, wastes or abuse taxpayers' money, among other things....than the perceived dishonesty of a man who's trying to squirm out of making a stupid remark, about an ex-lover!

The latter one can easily be dismissed as a knee-jerk reaction...a juvenile reaction...over personal history.