Israel

[Higgly]

History has a way of doping that, supporting the arguments of thoise who know it and thrashing those who don't. Like yours.....

I'm the only one who is citing well-researched published works written by accredited historians. All of which, by the way, have maps in them showing Palestine to be exactly what I am saying it is. Most of what I see from you lot is a hazy mixture of wishful thinking, dinner table gossip, spin and half truths.

Do any of you actually ever read anything or do you just sort of feed off of each other's fantasies?

By the way, Dancer. I am still waiting for you to show me where I argued against Israel's right to exist, or shall I just start calling you Vladimir?

[Higgly]

The fathers of zionism were by and large secular socialists.......

That's why the first Zionist conference sent three rabbis to scout out Palestine . By the way, the rabbis' report was a simple telegram that read: "The bride is beautiful, but she is married to someone else."

Still waiting Vladimir....

[Higgly]

So what exactly was you point, bring up a point in time when palestine extended fromthe sea to the jordan?

How about this point in time. I usually don't like to cite Wikipedia because it is so vulnerable to the likes of you (i.e. people who invent history to suit their arguments) but this article has been locked and appears to be well cited. Note the first sentence.... "Palestine (from Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: פלשתינה Palestina; Arabic: فلسطين Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn) is one of several names for the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River..."

I note that you don't seem to read books, but I will cite these anyways....

"One Palestine Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate", Tom Segev

"The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World", Avi Shlaim

"Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World", Margaret MacMillan

And don't forget, Dancer. I am still waiting for you to show me where I have argued against Israel's right to exist. Now that I have refuted yet another one of the red herrings you lot like to throw up, Dancer, it is time for you to justify this claim.

[M.Dancer]

So what exactly was you point, bring up a point in time when palestine extended fromthe sea to the jordan?

How about this point in time.

Okay...at this point in time, there is no entity called palestine that occupies an area from the sea to the Jordan river.

End of Story

[M.Dancer]

And don't forget, Dancer. I am still waiting for you to show me where I have argued against Israel's right to exist. Now that I have refuted yet another one of the red herrings you lot like to throw up, Dancer, it is time for you to justify this claim.

Tell you what, you show me where i say you have argued against Israel's right to exist and I will endeavor to find your arguments.

Oh...what have you refuted?

[M.Dancer]

I note that you don't seem to read books, but I will cite these anyways....

"One Palestine Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate", Tom Segev

"The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World", Avi Shlaim

"Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World", Margaret MacMillan

How do you note that?

Are you psychic as well as confused?

Anyway, I note that you don't read books, but Wizz Bang you sure can copy and paste their titles....

[Higgly]

You are now descending into sophistry on the question of where Palestine actually is. I guess I've won the debate.

It was White Doors who claimed I was arguing against Israel's right to exist. I guess all you illiterates look the same. You're off the hook

[Rue]

Well given Higgly's last comments may I respond in this manner

YOU FOOLS BOW BEFORE ME!!!!!I AM THE PURVEYOR OF TRUTH!!!!! I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS!!!!!!!!YOU ALL ARE FOOLS LIVING IN A WORLD OF MAKE BELIEVE DO YOU HEAR ME!!!!!!\

My word. This is getting quite melodramatic.

Just for the record everyone is wrong except me. No really. You are all dilluded. Really. Oh its true. I can prove it with maps and historic documents and also my cats agree with me.

[Higgly]

Well given Higgly's last comments may I respond in this manner

YOU FOOLS BOW BEFORE ME!!!!!I AM THE PURVEYOR OF TRUTH!!!!! I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS!!!!!!!!YOU ALL ARE FOOLS LIVING IN A WORLD OF MAKE BELIEVE DO YOU HEAR ME!!!!!!\

My word. This is getting quite melodramatic.

Just for the record everyone is wrong except me. No really. You are all dilluded. Really. Oh its true. I can prove it with maps and historic documents and also my cats agree with me.

I think I'll let Rue have the final word here.

[Rue]

Well given Higgly's last comments may I respond in this manner

YOU FOOLS BOW BEFORE ME!!!!!I AM THE PURVEYOR OF TRUTH!!!!! I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS!!!!!!!!YOU ALL ARE FOOLS LIVING IN A WORLD OF MAKE BELIEVE DO YOU HEAR ME!!!!!!\

My word. This is getting quite melodramatic.

Just for the record everyone is wrong except me. No really. You are all dilluded. Really. Oh its true. I can prove it with maps and historic documents and also my cats agree with me.

I think I'll let Rue have the final word here.

My I spelled the word diluded dilluded. You have such a sharp mind Higly. Nothing gets my that superior mind of yours.

[buffycat]

Actually, I think it's spelled 'deluded'... from the verb 'delude'

To cause to accept what is false, especially by trickery or misrepresentation: beguile, betray, bluff, cozen, deceive, double-cross, dupe, fool, hoodwink, humbug, mislead, take in, trick. Informal bamboozle, have. Slang four-flush. Idioms: lead astray, play false, pull the wool over someone's eyes, put something over on, take for a ride. See honest/dishonest.

[jbg]

My I spelled the word diluded dilluded. You have such a sharp mind Higly. Nothing gets my that superior mind of yours.

I actually think Higgly is one of the smartest and most eloquent posters here.

[BC_chick]

To put the failure of Oslo solely on Arafat is nonsense. Netenyahu never had any intention of implementing Oslo. It died with Rabin.

Rabin's assassination seems to be something many of the posters around here conveniently avoid. JBG danced around it too until he just dismissed commenting on the matter altogether when asked the question directly. I guess when you're busy arguing that your opponent is a religious zealot who doesn't know anything but violence, it's hard to acknowledge that the same elements also exist in some of the people who are on your side.

[jbg]

To put the failure of Oslo solely on Arafat is nonsense. Netenyahu never had any intention of implementing Oslo. It died with Rabin.

Rabin's assassination seems to be something many of the posters around here conveniently avoid. JBG danced around it too until he just dismissed commenting on the matter altogether when asked the question directly. I guess when you're busy arguing that your opponent is a religious zealot who doesn't know anything but violence, it's hard to acknowledge that the same elements also exist in some of the people who are on your side.

I didn't dance around anything. Rabin was assassinated by an extremist, and from what I recall he either died or is in prison.

Netanyahu's election had little to do with Oslo's non-implementation. Both Rabin and Netanyahu demanded that Arafat announce his recognition of Israel in Arabic as well as English, and instruct his people to stop fighting.

Instead, I have seen clips of his yelling, in 1996 "jihad, jihad, jihad, jihad". Netanyahu headed a modern democracy that honors its deals. Arafat did not.

[ScottSA]

VIDEO: Israeli Soldiers "Shoot to Kill" at Israeli Anti-war Demonstrators

Whoa, that's pretty shocking. I keep hearing Likudists assert how free and democratic Israel is, but this kind of thing certainly seems to detract from those claims.

You're apparently not so shocked at the sawing off of heads by the other side, though, eh? In fact, I haven't seen you express shock over the latest Lebanese army exploits, or any of the daily murders going on all over the globe in the name of Islam. Amazing how the shock leaps at you when it's Jews, isn't it?

[M.Dancer]

To put the failure of Oslo solely on Arafat is nonsense. Netenyahu never had any intention of implementing Oslo. It died with Rabin.

Rabin's assassination seems to be something many of the posters around here conveniently avoid. JBG danced around it too until he just dismissed commenting on the matter altogether when asked the question directly. I guess when you're busy arguing that your opponent is a religious zealot who doesn't know anything but violence, it's hard to acknowledge that the same elements also exist in some of the people who are on your side.

Of course they exist. But whether the fanatics are the isolated fringe or the leadership, that is the salient point.

[BC_chick]

To put the failure of Oslo solely on Arafat is nonsense. Netenyahu never had any intention of implementing Oslo. It died with Rabin.

Rabin's assassination seems to be something many of the posters around here conveniently avoid. JBG danced around it too until he just dismissed commenting on the matter altogether when asked the question directly. I guess when you're busy arguing that your opponent is a religious zealot who doesn't know anything but violence, it's hard to acknowledge that the same elements also exist in some of the people who are on your side.

Of course they exist. But whether the fanatics are the isolated fringe or the leadership, that is the salient point.

Maybe, but my point was that just the same, their actions have tremendously hindered the peace process. The people who prefer to blame ONLY the Palestinians for all the troubles in the region fail to acknowledge that the same elements exist on the Israeli side and have also contributed to the failings of a peace accord.

[Guest chilipeppers]

To put the failure of Oslo solely on Arafat is nonsense. Netenyahu never had any intention of implementing Oslo. It died with Rabin.

Rabin's assassination seems to be something many of the posters around here conveniently avoid. JBG danced around it too until he just dismissed commenting on the matter altogether when asked the question directly. I guess when you're busy arguing that your opponent is a religious zealot who doesn't know anything but violence, it's hard to acknowledge that the same elements also exist in some of the people who are on your side.

Of course they exist. But whether the fanatics are the isolated fringe or the leadership, that is the salient point.

Fanaticals exist everywhere in the world but not nearly to the extent they exist in the Palestinian & other ME countries. There is no comparison.

[jbg]

Maybe, but my point was that just the same, their actions have tremendously hindered the peace process. The people who prefer to blame ONLY the Palestinians for all the troubles in the region fail to acknowledge that the same elements exist on the Israeli side and have also contributed to the failings of a peace accord.

The blame is not symmetrical. One targets civilians directly. The other, civilian casualties are tragic, unavoidable collateral damage.

[Remiel]

The other, civilian casualties are tragic, unavoidable collateral damage.

Would anyone like to take a wild guess as to which logical fallacy that statement represents?

[BC_chick]

Maybe, but my point was that just the same, their actions have tremendously hindered the peace process. The people who prefer to blame ONLY the Palestinians for all the troubles in the region fail to acknowledge that the same elements exist on the Israeli side and have also contributed to the failings of a peace accord.

The blame is not symmetrical. One targets civilians directly. The other, civilian casualties are tragic, unavoidable collateral damage.

That's a whole other issue which doesn't exactly negate the fact that the inability to achieve peace in the Middle-East has not rested entirely on Palestinian shoulders. Agreed or not?

[jbg]

That's a whole other issue which doesn't exactly negate the fact that the inability to achieve peace in the Middle-East has not rested entirely on Palestinian shoulders. Agreed or not?

I'd put a lot of the blame on UNWRA, which has fostered the fantasy that the "Palestinians" have a "Palestine" to "return" to. I'd also place some of the blame on those who create a make-believe world where nations can exist with no economic viability, whose sole purpose is to fight.

[BC_chick]

That's a whole other issue which doesn't exactly negate the fact that the inability to achieve peace in the Middle-East has not rested entirely on Palestinian shoulders. Agreed or not?

I'd put a lot of the blame on UNWRA, which has fostered the fantasy that the "Palestinians" have a "Palestine" to "return" to. I'd also place some of the blame on those who create a make-believe world where nations can exist with no economic viability, whose sole purpose is to fight.

And your feelings on religious extremists who assassinate leaders who are about make strides toward peace because they believe that a certain piece of real-estate has been given to Jews by Lord Almighty himself....?

[scribblet]

That's a whole other issue which doesn't exactly negate the fact that the inability to achieve peace in the Middle-East has not rested entirely on Palestinian shoulders. Agreed or not?

I'd put a lot of the blame on UNWRA, which has fostered the fantasy that the "Palestinians" have a "Palestine" to "return" to. I'd also place some of the blame on those who create a make-believe world where nations can exist with no economic viability, whose sole purpose is to fight.

There will never be peace until the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate Israel Golda M.

[jbg]

And your feelings on religious extremists who assassinate leaders who are about make strides toward peace because they believe that a certain piece of real-estate has been given to Jews by Lord Almighty himself....?

My feeling is that like Netanyahu, Rabin would not have gone ahead with further real estate surrenders without real peace. I don't think his death made a whit of difference.

There will never be peace until the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate Israel Golda M.

Actually, the quote is: “We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us" (link).