Craig Read Posted September 29, 2003 Report Posted September 29, 2003 Edward Said, a Muslim apologist finally died. Good. He gave vent and philosophical comfort to the failure of Islam and Muslim society. In a weak moment however, he admitted that Islam was a failure. In 1998, he accused the Arab world of hypocrisy for defending a Holocaust denier on grounds of free speech. After all, free speech "scarcely exists in our own societies." The history of the modern Arab world was one of "political failures," "human rights abuses," "stunning military incompetences," "decreasing production, [and] the fact that alone of all modern peoples, we have receded in democratic and technological and scientific development." [sce WSJ Sept 28 2003] The racist knew he was wrong. His legacy is pernicious - and is now largely supported by Western Liberals and elites - in their root cause search for meaning and Islamic rage. The root cause is simple - Islam has failed. Quote
Black Dog Posted September 29, 2003 Report Posted September 29, 2003 You are a vile troll, Craig. Can you cite instances of Said's racism? Can you back up your loathsome accusations with facts? As usual, the answer is no: you just vomit your racist bile and hide behind ideological dogma masquerading as intellectualism. Said had more compassion, intelligence and wisdom in his fingernails than could ever be found in the poisoned bog of your brain, Craig. Said was an eloquent and vocal defender of the Palestinian cause, yet retained some of his sharpest criticism for the ruling elites of the Muslim world. Said also called for an end to the tired models of discourse that inevitably lead to the flawed false dichotomies of "good" versus "evil", "us" againts "them" etc. My argument is that history is made by men and women, just as it can also be unmade and rewritten, so that "our" east, "our" orient becomes "ours" to possess and direct. And I have a very high regard for the powers and gifts of the peoples of that region to struggle on for their vision of what they are and want to be. There has been so massive and calculatedly aggressive an attack on contemporary Arab and Muslim societies for their backwardness, lack of democracy, and abrogation of women's rights that we simply forget that such notions as modernity, enlightenment, and democracy are by no means simple and agreed-upon concepts that one either does or does not find like Easter eggs in the living-room. The breathtaking insouciance of jejune publicists who speak in the name of foreign policy and who have no knowledge at all of the language real people actually speak, has fabricated an arid landscape ready for American power to construct there an ersatz model of free market "democracy". In his own words. More Said. Fisk on Said. Hitchens too. Quote
SirRiff Posted October 1, 2003 Report Posted October 1, 2003 is this message board really here to post targeted cheers of glee when someone of one religion or philosophy dies? tells more about the author then the subject. SirRiff Quote SirRiff, A Canadian Patriot "The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them." - Mark Twain
Derek Posted October 1, 2003 Report Posted October 1, 2003 Well I agree with him saying Islam is a failure. Many "fundamentalists Islamic Militants" make islam a failure. Martyrism doesn't have to be blowing yourself up, it can be fighting for your religion can it not? But no they have to kill innocent people, Women Children for their cause. Islam is the biggest piece of shit "religion" the world has ever known. Excuse me, Fundamentalist Islam=Racism at its worst. Do you see Christians, Buddhists, Hindus blowing themselves up, NO you don't. Buddhists forbid it, so do Hindus. Christians also. Islam nowadays is running into a crowded Israeli market and screaming " FOR ALLAH" before blowing yourself, and many others to death. In my view the Schools of Fundamentalist islam should be blown off the face of the earth. I don't have a problem with the peaceful Islamic culture. Thats fine with me. But many are turning it into a "Death to America" type Culture/religion. (sorry I didn't explain that very well, Im tired) Quote
theloniusfleabag Posted October 1, 2003 Report Posted October 1, 2003 Dear Derek, Most on this forum agree that Islamic fundamentalism is the catalyst for terrorist activities, and most believe it is they who 'ruin Islam for the others'. It is Mr. Read's "Flamer-type" messages that are ruining this board. Quote Would the Special Olympics Committee disqualify kids born with flippers from the swimming events?
nova_satori Posted October 1, 2003 Report Posted October 1, 2003 Derek: Have we forgotten that the Koran strictly prohibts killing yourself? Quote
cknykid Posted October 1, 2003 Report Posted October 1, 2003 Israel needs to get out of Palestine land and let those poor people be free. This day and age its pretty stupid claming a land because your invisible god told you it belongs to you and your invisible god is better than there invisible god. This whole Zionist idea of occupation is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you come first, you are still retarded and it doesn’t make you smart. Colonization has always been an ignorant idea One man’s terrorist is other man’s freedom fighter. Quote
SirRiff Posted October 1, 2003 Report Posted October 1, 2003 what religion were the people who owned slaves in the US? SirRiff Quote SirRiff, A Canadian Patriot "The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them." - Mark Twain
Forum Admin Greg Posted October 1, 2003 Forum Admin Report Posted October 1, 2003 I agree with many of the comments in this thread. Islam isn't a failure Criag, and many of your recent anti-Islam posts haven't a shred of evidence to support your position. Let's avoid making these types of value judgements. Quote Have any issues, problems using the forum? Post a message in the Support and Questions section of the forums.
Locke Posted October 2, 2003 Report Posted October 2, 2003 If people accually followed their religion properly, then there would be no wars, no hatered. All three of the major monotheistic religons state that all of their followers should be kind and genorous and pasifists. But they have been warped and misinterpted and they have been fighting over followers for so long, that now they are simply another source of conflict. And it is also a way so that good people that do awful things can go to sleep peacefully at night. Quote
Craig Read Posted October 2, 2003 Author Report Posted October 2, 2003 Greg I have listed many reasons why Islam has failed. I can recap them they include: -Despots, Tyrants, infanticide, Civil Wars -Poverty -Illiteracy -Reduction of women to outcasts -Stoning -Teaching of anti-Western and anti-jewish hatred -Support of terrorism -Literal reading of the Koran to kill heathen that do not convert -A lack of innovation or general public goods production anywhere in the Muslim world for 2 centuries. Since when does that list constitute a success ? Is there any proof that Islam is a success. If there is please post it. I fail to see how any of the above are refuted by evidence. A religion that encompasses both state and spiritual practice must be measured on both. On both aspects Islam has failed its own people. As for Nova's claim that Said is a hero this is preposterous. He incited racism, violence and admitted that Islam had failed. Quote
SirRiff Posted October 2, 2003 Report Posted October 2, 2003 craig, every 'evil' of islam is just a manifestation of poverty and overpopulation found in every period of history even in europe during the dark ages and the US during slavery and the civil rights movement. your thoughts are so jumbled and nonsensical you just seem to like hearing yourself talk lately. and the garbage you post about other cultures shows you ignorance and isolation from the complexities of the world. learn a bit from the other people here who have actually seen teh world. at least then you can disagree intelligently and not blindly repeat generalizations and misinformation. SirRiff Quote SirRiff, A Canadian Patriot "The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them." - Mark Twain
Craig Read Posted October 2, 2003 Author Report Posted October 2, 2003 Then refute one aspect of what I said. Modernity has left Islam behind and it is a marked success. This is inane. Hundreds of millions of lives literally lost. And the best you come up with as an apology is slander. Your feel good sentimentality obviously does not extend itself to those affected by the creed. Well done. I made a list - with your supposed superior insight and moral breeding go through it and refute it. Quote
Pellaken Posted October 2, 2003 Report Posted October 2, 2003 in order for someone to be a failure, they must fail at thier goal. sicne the goal of islam is to warship the right god, and since they are right, islam is a sucess, and christianity is a failure. Quote
cknykid Posted October 2, 2003 Report Posted October 2, 2003 It doesn’t matter what a person’s faith is you can be a Jew, christen, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or atheist or whatever. The more you think we are different, travel, get to know each other and you will find the more we are the same. Only created differences exist to divide and rule the population. You are smart enough to brag all you want that your invisible god is better than there invisible god or your fairytale religion is better than there fairytale religion but are you smarter than a chimp in the jungle because you don’t see anything wrong with killing innocent people in the name of your so called noble cause. Things are pretty simple but people who want power make them complicated for the ignorant. Truth is always out there for those who want to find it. And there are worse things in life than dying and one of those is taking away a person’s freedom. Quote
SirRiff Posted October 2, 2003 Report Posted October 2, 2003 Modernity has left Islam behind and it is a marked success. by that pathetic logic when Europe was wasting away during the dark ages and the middle east was the curtural and scientific capital of the world, it means that Europe (which would become the mother of all modern western civilization) is condemned to be a failure in concept? no, doesnt work that way. at any point in time success is relative and does not generally define the intrinsic value of a people, or nation, or culture. once again, have you actually travelled beyond the borders of Canada? most people who have show a more insightfull view of the manifestations of poverty vs the people who may be poor. there i refuted it. get on a plane and see reality. SirRiff Quote SirRiff, A Canadian Patriot "The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them." - Mark Twain
Craig Read Posted October 2, 2003 Author Report Posted October 2, 2003 I have lived and worked in more countries than you can count. Relativity is nonsense. You outed yourself. An apologist and post modern relativist. Big surprise. Bigger surprise to you maybe that you are utterly incorrect. Since 1683 list in great detail the triumphs of Islam. List the number of countries covering a wide swathe from Morocco to Indonesia that currently can be considered successful. List for me the myriad inventions, poets, authors and tangible evidence produced by this wonderful philosophy of state organisation. Recount if you can the considerable philosophical power of this religion and its relevance in an integrated world. Give me the exact number of Westerners who choose to live in this vibrant advanced organism. Lastly go live there - or at least talk to people who have. Maybe you will wake up then. Enumerate the Islamic model's benefits and why it is a success please. Quote
Black Dog Posted October 2, 2003 Report Posted October 2, 2003 -Despots, Tyrants, infanticide, Civil Wars-Poverty -Illiteracy -Reduction of women to outcasts -Stoning -Teaching of anti-Western and anti-jewish hatred -Support of terrorism -Literal reading of the Koran to kill heathen that do not convert -A lack of innovation or general public goods production anywhere in the Muslim world for 2 centuries. Since when does that list constitute a success ? Is there any proof that Islam is a success. If there is please post it. I fail to see how any of the above are refuted by evidence. A religion that encompasses both state and spiritual practice must be measured on both. On both aspects Islam has failed its own people. Where Craig fails (as usual) is his reading of Islam as a monolithic, homogenous entity and that the "failures" he listed are byproducts of some kind of universal Muslim orthodoxy (while of course hiding behind unprovable claims that he's been "there", as if that justifies or excuses his vile racism). There are non-Islamic countries across the globe that exhibit the traits above. For example, Latin America is plagued with poverty, inequality, violence, civil wars and tyrannical regimes, yet most countries in that region are devoutly Catholic (another "failure" I guess). the distinction needs to be made between causes. Instead of acknowleging the complexities of post-war geopolitics and the lingering effects of imperialism, Craig takes the coward's way out and, as befits his rigid, dogamtic idealogy, lays 100 per cent of the blame on Islam's doorstep. Fact is, Islam is no more of a failure than Christianity or Judaism: you can't blame the religion for how it is applied. As for Nova's claim that Said is a hero this is preposterous. He incited racism, violence and admitted that Islam had failed. ALright I challenged you before to produce any evidence and, to my utter lack of surprise, you failed to deliver. Now I'm saying again: prove it. Back up your smears or cease your dull pontification. Quote
Craig Read Posted October 2, 2003 Author Report Posted October 2, 2003 I never said Islam was monolithic. Read my posts on Islam. I am very clear IT IS NOT monolithic. You confuse me with Huntington [do you know who he is ? I thought not]. A societal organising principle - of which Islam whatever variant you choose is for 1.3 billion people - has to deliver the goods to its adherents and constituents in THIS life. Praying for 72 virgins before martyring yourself does not replace the here and now. In that regard as I listed Islam has failed and failed utterably. I have already listed in other posts its failures and not one person has bothered to refute it, except by slander, name calling and arm waving and ad hominem attacks [if you need that translated please ask]. And by the way read Lewis, Esposito, and Huntington and don't forget Said's quote that i listed - the arch racist himself admitted Islam was a failure. They provide the rationale for what i just stated and let me guess....I think they know more than you about the topic. [or any topic for that matter]. From the Koran or Qu'ran for the PC crowd, don't want to upset them now, the sensitive souls that they are: ..we must always maintain that our military duty is a jihad for God and our military duty against Israel is a jihad for God, and for those who fight in this war there is the reward of fighters in the holy war for God [this is where those nubile 72 virgins come into play i suppose]...Our duty is the holy war for God. "Kill them wherever you come upon them and drive them from the places from which they drove you."[] [KORAN 2:191]Yep sounds peaceful, modern, and tolerant to me. Must be a good reason why this philosophy is so wildly successful and the education system so advanced. Quote
Black Dog Posted October 2, 2003 Report Posted October 2, 2003 In that regard as I listed Islam has failed and failed utterably. I have already listed in other posts its failures and not one person has bothered to refute it, except by slander, name calling and arm waving and ad hominem attacks It's rather hilarious to see the master of the ad hominem and the creator of straw men whine like a child when the tables are "utterbly" turned. As I said before (in a point you--surprise!--failed to address), "Instead of acknowleging the complexities of post-war geopolitics and the lingering effects of imperialism, Craig takes the coward's way out and, as befits his rigid, dogamtic idealogy, lays 100 per cent of the blame on Islam's doorstep." And by the way read Lewis, Esposito, and Huntington and don't forget Said's quote that i listed - the arch racist himself admitted Islam was a failure. I challenged you (twice now) to offer proof of Said's alleged racism.. You haven't delivered. Could it be you're pulling these allegations out of thin air to support your racist bluster? Must be. As for the others...ooh! Craig read a book once! Unfortunately, just mindlessly parroting the views of others (without actually referencing them) doesn't make your point. It just shows you have a library card. As for the rest of your waste of bandwith, I could produce endless quotes from the Bible or Torah that espouse violence, but that certainly wouldn't demonstrate the "failure" (a term you have successfully beat into the ground without ever actually qualifying) of Christianity or Judaism, but what would be the point? Finally, I'm personally sick of your condescension and racsim. I'm certain you lack the balls to speak to someone like this in person (if you did, you'd probably get your ass kicked). There's clearly no point in discussing issues with a blind, pompous, idealogue lik eyou. You simply repeat ad naseum the same vile and boring garbage you've vomited out a thousand times before. You are a failure and I'm done with you. Quote
nova_satori Posted October 3, 2003 Report Posted October 3, 2003 -Despots, Tyrants, infanticide, Civil Wars-Poverty -Illiteracy -Reduction of women to outcasts -Stoning -Teaching of anti-Western and anti-jewish hatred -Support of terrorism -Literal reading of the Koran to kill heathen that do not convert -A lack of innovation or general public goods production anywhere in the Muslim world for 2 centuries. And Christanity and Judaism have never done anything on this list? "Literal reading of the Koran to kill heathen that do not convert" Typical fanatical extremist right wing propaganda. Quote
SirRiff Posted October 3, 2003 Report Posted October 3, 2003 I have lived and worked in more countries than you can count. where exactly? i have spent some time in pakistan, so i have seen islam first hand. tell us where you have seen islam first hand so we can make sure you didnt get a biased view. maybe you can teach us about some cultures. i hope the list fits on one page. SirRiff Quote SirRiff, A Canadian Patriot "The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them." - Mark Twain
Craig Read Posted October 3, 2003 Author Report Posted October 3, 2003 North, South America, WE, EE, Russia and the ME. Many of my contacts, friends are from the ME. In fact my neighbours are from Iran. So i asked them about my thesis that Islam has failed. My neighbours wife just smiled and said, why do you think we are here ? Which is exactly the same answer i received friends from Karachi, Iraq and Dubai. Quote
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