The Simple Reason For Religious Homophobia

[M.Dancer]

read corinthians and paul's reponse to the tranvestites

[M.Dancer]

Condemned means punished.

That is indeed one definition....in this case it means judged

[betsy]

We instinctively don't wantonly kill one another. Basic "morality" is inate in our species as it is in all animal species.

Oh sure!

Close down law enforcement agencies in our modern law abiding countries for a single week throughout the world and see what happens.

You don't even have to close down law enforcement agencies. Just have a blackout worldwide.

[jefferiah]

Condemned means punished.

That is indeed one definition....in this case it means judged

In this case? In your mind.

[betsy]

The point I am trying to make, is that the Christian position, though some Christians do not stick well to it, is that even though we believe homosexuality is wrong we are not to condemn or judge people for it, but be merciful to them and help them should they want to change. This is the method for all sin I think. Tolerance does not mean one has to agree with everything someone else believes in. Tolerance does not mean you have to believe being gay is right. I can be tolerant of homosexuals without condoning it. People can be tolerant of smokers without condoning it.

True. The case of Mary Magdalene was a good example.

[M.Dancer]

Condemned means punished.

That is indeed one definition....in this case it means judged

In this case? In your mind.

Thank you. My mind is a beautiful thing. Apparently we are to use it to worship, rather than worship mindlessly.......

con·demn Listen: [ kn-dm ]

tr.v. con·demned, con·demn·ing, con·demns

The wonderful and dangerous thing about the bible and the KJV is the language is beyond most people....like Hamlet telling his mother to go to the nunnery, the nuance is lost........

To express strong disapproval of: condemned the needless waste of food.

To pronounce judgment against; sentence: condemned the felons to prison.

To judge or declare to be unfit for use or consumption, usually by official order: condemn an old building .

To lend credence to or provide evidence for an adverse judgment against: were condemned by their actions.

Law To appropriate (property) for public use.

[jefferiah]

Once again M Dancer, I must say there is a fine line between being "merciful and non-judgemental" and being "permissive and condoning". Jesus said adultery was a sin, but he knew that not one of us was better than that woman. Since I am also a sinner and a criminal in God's sight my mercy depends on the mercy he shows to other sinners. If there is no mercy for that woman, for homosexuals, for criminals (from J Walker to what have you)---there is no mercy for me. This is not the same as saying sin doesnt exist. Forgiveness isnt saying "go ahead have sex with whoever you want, i really dont think its bad for you". Forgiveness says "I have mercy on you, I know you have weaknesses and I love you and pity you and I will continue to give you another chance."

[jefferiah]

Condemned means punished.

That is indeed one definition....in this case it means judged

In this case? In your mind.

Thank you. My mind is a beautiful thing. Apparently we are to use it to worship, rather than worship mindlessly.......

con·demn Listen: [ kn-dm ]

tr.v. con·demned, con·demn·ing, con·demns

The wonderful and dangerous thing about the bible and the KJV is the language is beyond most people....like Hamlet telling his mother to go to the nunnery, the nuance is lost........

To express strong disapproval of: condemned the needless waste of food.

To pronounce judgment against; sentence: condemned the felons to prison.

To judge or declare to be unfit for use or consumption, usually by official order: condemn an old building .

To lend credence to or provide evidence for an adverse judgment against: were condemned by their actions.

Law To appropriate (property) for public use.

The definition you have just given defeats your whole argument. Here it calls condemning a judgement as in punishment. When Jesus was merciful to sinners and did not condemn them or exercise judgement over them, it was not because he thought what they were doing is A-OK. When your children do something wrong do you condemn them. No, of course not. But do you say "Hey kids, I am happy you stole the car and wrecked it. This is the kind of thing I wish you would do more of."

[jefferiah]

Condemned means punished.

That is indeed one definition....in this case it means judged

In this case? In your mind.

Thank you. My mind is a beautiful thing. Apparently we are to use it to worship, rather than worship mindlessly.......

con·demn Listen: [ kn-dm ]

tr.v. con·demned, con·demn·ing, con·demns

The wonderful and dangerous thing about the bible and the KJV is the language is beyond most people....like Hamlet telling his mother to go to the nunnery, the nuance is lost........

To express strong disapproval of: condemned the needless waste of food.

To pronounce judgment against; sentence: condemned the felons to prison.

To judge or declare to be unfit for use or consumption, usually by official order: condemn an old building .

To lend credence to or provide evidence for an adverse judgment against: were condemned by their actions.

Law To appropriate (property) for public use.

The definition you have just given defeats your whole argument. Here it calls condemning a judgement as in punishment. When Jesus was merciful to sinners and did not condemn them or exercise judgement over them, it was not because he thought what they were doing is A-OK. When your children do something wrong do you condemn them. No, of course not. But do you say "Hey kids, I am happy you stole the car and wrecked it. This is the kind of thing I wish you would do more of."

The fact that Jesus is merciful to me or the woman who was brought to be stoned, does not mean he didnt think she had not sinned or that I have not sinned.

[M.Dancer]

Once again M Dancer, I must say there is a fine line between being "merciful and non-judgemental" and being "permissive and condoning". Jesus said adultery was a sin, but he knew that not one of us was better than that woman. Since I am also a sinner and a criminal in God's sight my mercy depends on the mercy he shows to other sinners. If there is no mercy for that woman, for homosexuals, for criminals (from J Walker to what have you)---there is no mercy for me. This is not the same as saying sin doesnt exist. Forgiveness isnt saying "go ahead have sex with whoever you want, i really dont think its bad for you". Forgiveness says "I have mercy on you, I know you have weaknesses and I love you and pity you and I will continue to give you another chance."

And I say, gievn all the outrages in the world; war, famine, pestillence and death, given the weight of god's word in the bible against oppression, the neglect of the weak, the abuses of the powerful, focusing on sexual misdeameaners, even if your interpretation is correct, is like raising a stink over littering while widowed mothers are sold into slavery at your doorstep.

All in all, the religious right's focus on it says more about their moral inadequecies than it does about the litter bugs in question.....in other words, why would Jesus need condemn the woman, you guys didn't take his hints and are doing for him willingly......

[M.Dancer]

con·demn Listen: [ kn-dm ]

tr.v. con·demned, con·demn·ing, con·demns

The wonderful and dangerous thing about the bible and the KJV is the language is beyond most people....like Hamlet telling his mother to go to the nunnery, the nuance is lost........

To express strong disapproval of: condemned the needless waste of food.

To pronounce judgment against; sentence: condemned the felons to prison.

To judge or declare to be unfit for use or consumption, usually by official order: condemn an old building .

To lend credence to or provide evidence for an adverse judgment against: were condemned by their actions.

Law To appropriate (property) for public use.

The definition you have just given defeats your whole argument. Here it calls condemning a judgement as in punishment. When Jesus was merciful to sinners and did not condemn them or exercise judgement over them, it was not because he thought what they were doing is A-OK. When your children do something wrong do you condemn them. No, of course not. But do you say "Hey kids, I am happy you stole the car and wrecked it. This is the kind of thing I wish you would do more of."

Are you aware of the functions of colons and semi colons?

[jefferiah]

con·demn Listen: [ kn-dm ]

tr.v. con·demned, con·demn·ing, con·demns

The wonderful and dangerous thing about the bible and the KJV is the language is beyond most people....like Hamlet telling his mother to go to the nunnery, the nuance is lost........

To express strong disapproval of: condemned the needless waste of food.

To pronounce judgment against; sentence: condemned the felons to prison.

To judge or declare to be unfit for use or consumption, usually by official order: condemn an old building .

To lend credence to or provide evidence for an adverse judgment against: were condemned by their actions.

Law To appropriate (property) for public use.

The definition you have just given defeats your whole argument. Here it calls condemning a judgement as in punishment. When Jesus was merciful to sinners and did not condemn them or exercise judgement over them, it was not because he thought what they were doing is A-OK. When your children do something wrong do you condemn them. No, of course not. But do you say "Hey kids, I am happy you stole the car and wrecked it. This is the kind of thing I wish you would do more of."

Are you aware of the functions of colons and semi colons?

I dont agree with the far right M Dancer. Maybe your beef is with them. I am not overly concerned about homosexuals, I am just defending those who believe it is a sin. Just because the far right also has this belief does not mean it is wrong. Both Jesus and the men who were about to stone the woman believed adultery was wrong. But there is still a difference in their attitudes about mercy, right. On one extreme there are the people who would react and attack everything they think is wrong and punish those sinners they consider more sinful themselves. This is wrong. But it is equally wrong to adopt the other extreme and say that we should not only be merciful to other sinners, but we should also declare the term sin a crime in itself, and permit everything. Now once again there is the question of whether homosexuality falls into the category of being immoral. You and I will continue to disagree on this matter, I am sure. But I do not support those who would make fun of gays or assault them. To make fun of a something you think is a sin, does not show concern for the sinner, but that you get joy out of seeing someone doing something dirty you can frown on, right? This is clearly wrong, M Dancer. But the fact that I believe homosexuality is a sin, and that I assert my right to say so, does not mean that I hate homosexuals or that I feel they should be "condemned" by society. So I ask you to look at my opinion honestly, even though it may not be your own, and admit that my thinking homosexuality is a sin does not mean I am "phobic" of it. The bible says we are all sinners, so that would make anyone who believes anything is a sin at all phobic of that sin. I just believe it is wrong. This is not self-righteous either, and I think you are honest and intelligent enough to admit that, even though you may not share my view.

[jefferiah]

I cannot stop someone from being gay M Dancer, anymore than the Church was able to stop me and others from committing adultery by saying they believe it is wrong. I cannot stop anyone from being gay. But if a gay person were to ask me do I condone homosexual relationships, I would say no. I would not go out and physically stop them, or drag them to the town square for a lynching. And if a gay couple came to my house to stay the night I would ask them not to have sex here. My house, my rules. The same way you would not want someone smoking in your home perhaps, which is also not as bad as corporations raping the land of other countries and the constant chemical waste produces by large factories. If you like eating pork you dont have to do it in a Synagogue right?

[M.Dancer]

I don't think it is phobic.....but when it comes down to their equality, their legal rights, which side of the fence will you be.....and will you use the cross to justify your decision?

[jefferiah]

I don't think it is phobic.....but when it comes down to their equality, their legal rights, which side of the fence will you be.....and will you use the cross to justify your decision?

Well personally M Dancer as far as getting jobs, getting EI, getting anything else I will support them. With the adoption issue I dont believe it is good for the children, so I do not support it. But my support will probably mean little in the long run anyway, right. However the reason I do not support adoption is not because I want to stick it to homosexuals, and deny them the right to have children. Its because I believe it is not good for them. You can argue this with me all you want, but this is what I believe. When it comes down to a persons right to believe this is a sin and to profess it (as long as they are not violent about it, or encouraging violence) which side of the fence do you stand on?

[M.Dancer]

I don't think it is phobic.....but when it comes down to their equality, their legal rights, which side of the fence will you be.....and will you use the cross to justify your decision?

. However the reason I do not support adoption is not because I want to stick it to homosexuals, and deny them the right to have children. Its because I believe it is not good for them.

You don't think children are good for homosexuals? Curious.....

Where I stand is I don't think we should condone prejudice when it affects peoples lived...regardless if it hides behind a cross or not. Feel free to exclude gays in your church, put outside your personal private beliefs should not infringe others.

Unfortunately, I see politicians pandering to the public's prejudice....while Christ would not condemn, thousands will

[jefferiah]

I don't think it is phobic.....but when it comes down to their equality, their legal rights, which side of the fence will you be.....and will you use the cross to justify your decision?

. However the reason I do not support adoption is not because I want to stick it to homosexuals, and deny them the right to have children. Its because I believe it is not good for them.

You don't think children are good for homosexuals? Curious.....

Where I stand is I don't think we should condone prejudice when it affects peoples lived...regardless if it hides behind a cross or not. Feel free to exclude gays in your church, put outside your personal private beliefs should not infringe others.

Unfortunately, I see politicians pandering to the public's prejudice....while Christ would not condemn, thousands will

I dont think homosexual parents are good for the children. This is my opinion. My conscience. If I had a vote on the matter like a Proposition 21 thing--- I would vote no. This is not because I am trying to stick it to homosexuals personally though. I never said gays should be excluded from Church either. Actually I dont go to church M Dancer. Everyone is welcome in church. Once again everyone is a sinner, right. So everyone sitting in a Church including the man at the pulpit has to endure the fact that the Church calls something you do or have done in life a sin. I am saying that if the church says homosexuality is a sin and a gay person doesnt like it, he can leave if he likes.

[M.Dancer]

I never said gays should be excluded from Church either.

Oh so you would be okay with gays taking communion, getting married or becoming priests........

All righty.......

.....but you assume they would be bad parents because..no particular reason.....becasue they litter?

[jefferiah]

The early church was made of all kinds of sinners including adulterers, hookers, homosexuals, and murderers. They were all welcome there. But they all agreed that their previous lifestyles were sinful. There are ex-Gay baptist ministers. Most churches dont require you to be straight, to have never touched marijuana or drugs, to get in the doors. If you do these things and continue to do these things you will not be thrown out. I dont go to church, and the truth is like you I have many beefs against organized religion. And when I was younger I saw everything as established as always wrong all the time. But now I have seen that although establishment is often wrong it is not always wrong. All the church will do is say that these things are sinful. I used to smoke pot, and during that time I didnt like church very much as I saw them as all out to get me and just another part of the "man". But I was being just as stereotypical during that phase of my life as we believe many far right Christians are. The church is still filled with people who are addicted to drugs, have committed adultery, are homosexual, etc. The church doesnt tell you you cant come in, they just tell you these things are wrong. If you dont like their stance, thats when you can exclude yourself if you wish.

[jefferiah]

I never said gays should be excluded from Church either.

Oh so you would be okay with gays taking communion, getting married or becoming priests........

All righty.......

.....but you assume they would be bad parents because..no particular reason.....becasue they litter?

No I dont support gay marriage either. But once again I cannot stop them can I. It is legal. One does not have to go to a Church to be married. But since the Church does not condone gay marriage the church should not have to perform one. The church will allow homosexuals in the doors, but you cant force the church to take part in an activity it believes is sinful. The same way you cant hold a ham dinner at a synagogue.

[jefferiah]

If you dont want to shave your head and give up meat at a Rinzai monastery, or dont even like their position on meat eating, you dont have to join the monastery. They wont exclude you. They wont dislike you. They wont refuse to talk to you. But if you want to join the monastery they will tell you what they believe. If you dont like hearing what they believe is wrong, and you feel this is all malarky. And that saying a certain thing is wrong is giving you guilt problems when you really dont believe it is wrong, then you dont have to join. They wont kick you out M Dancer. The church's stance is that homosexuality is a sin therefore like other sins it should be worked on between the sinner and God, and that the church should be merciful towards the struggling sinner as he tries to change his life and habits. But this mercy does not mean they would allow and encourage gays to get married. If you dont agree with this, thats ok. But the Church does not have to agree with you either.

[jefferiah]

I wonder if you and I will still be arguing when we are 80. Lol. Anyways, yeah I dont agree with the church on everything M Dancer either. But I dont think the Church should have to perform marriages it considers sinful though. If you dont feel its sinful, thats your opinion. But gays can get married. And do I think there are many self-righteous hypocrites in the Church. Certainly I do. I think there as many self-righteous hypocrites in this world as there are humans. That does not mean I hate humanity, but I recognize human nature. One main opposition to the churches beliefs on sex in general is that it is repressive to sexuality. Saying homosexuality is wrong is repressive to homosexuals and could cause damage to them and confusion etc etc. I dont know. I mean, no one is forcing you to believe it is wrong. If you dont like that stance you dont have to subscribe to it. The church will not kick you out for disagreeing either, but they wont change their stance. And you can go out the same door you entered by just as freely. And also there are ex-homosexuals who believe in the church's stance on this, and they are glad the church had this stance because they feel it helped anchor their own lives. Do all homosexuals have to agree with these former homosexuals? No. No one is forcing them to.

[jbg]

Edit your posts to be more concise.

He's new. Learning how MLW's quotation system works takes time.

[jbg]

To start with I do not know what planet you come from, but on the planet earth the medical and scientific communities have long since come to the conclusion that one's sexual drive is genetically programmed and homo-sexuality is a natural built in mechanism in all life forms not just humans.

That may be true with some people. There are other people on the border between being gay and being straight who either can choose or be influenced in either direction.

I am also firmly convinced that a lot of people who consider themselves "gay" are reluctant to grow out of pre-adolescence, since that creates, to use your term, a "comfort zone". Stepping into new kinds of relationships may be frightening for quite a few people.

[newbie]

I don't know jefferiah. The meaning I get from the New Testatment is love and forgiveness. You seem to be steeped in judgement and I belieive Jesus had something to say about that too.