The Simple Reason For Religious Homophobia

[M.Dancer]

No the "church" (whoever that is...) should be called presumptious.....for pretending to know God's thoughts on the matter.......

[jefferiah]

Well the Bible says its wrong more than once.

[Rue]

There is no evidence people are born gay M Dancer. In fact I think most evidence reveals the opposite. There was scientist who thought he may have identified a gay gene, but it was mostly theoretical and this became the big argument for the gay movement. Personally I believe gays are affected by some sexual trauma in early development, and I dont think they really choose to be gay. By the same token many people dont choose to be alcoholics, or addicts. We all have our problems to bear, and our thorns in our sides. Having high blood pressure and a violent past doesnt give you license to commit violent acts more than anyone else. But I can understand where gay people may need more love and mercy than others, because of this situation.

To start with I do not know what planet you come from, but on the planet earth the medical and scientific communities have long since come to the conclusion that one's sexual drive is genetically programmed and homo-sexuality is a natural built in mechanism in all life forms not just humans.

You may wish to venture outside yoru comfort zone and read up on scientific studies where the brains

of lesbians (don't worry they were dead) were examined and the structure of the brains, the coils were similiar to those of males and NOT females clearly proving that homo-sexuality is defined by chromosones, hormones, and a myriad of chemicals and physical biological mattre predisposed or pre-designed in the dna code.

Here is the point. You are absolutely dead wrong when say there is no scientific evidence and all you have to do is read. That said environmental conditioning can shape sexual behaviour but it does not necessarily make it permanent. For example, men in prison will engage in homo-sexuality but it doesn't make them homo-sexuals. They revert back to

hetero-sexuality the moment they can get their hands on a woman Likewise men who are molested as children don't magically turn gay. It doesn't work that way.

There are again oodles of studies to show that children of gay parents don't turn gay because they have same sex parents.

Despire your using coded Christian words of mercy and kindness to describe yourself, for you equate homo-sexuality to alcoholism, violence, and/or crime are expressions of hatred based on your inability come come to terms with homo-sexuality. You will have to look inside yourself to figure that one out. What I can say to you is that vaving sex with someone of the same sex is not self-destructive, its not violent and in fact it is quite healthy if someone is genuinely gay and with another genuinely gay person and the medical community long since declassified being gay as a mental illness or a crime. Sexual acts between consenting adults and that is the key, between consenting adults are not right or wrong-they are a private matter of expression that those two adults and only those two adults can define their meaning and context not you.

Sorry but for you to make blanket statements that homo-sexuality is akin to a substance abuse problem or criminal violence is hateful not just ignorant because you are now imposing negative motives to the minds of gay people and that is intellectually dishonest.

[M.Dancer]

Well the Bible says its wrong more than once.

1) You're interpretation of what the bible says may in itself be wrong

2) The bible is often wrong

3) Times change

4) many people do not believe in the bible

5) Call it a sin, but keep your opinion to yourself, let it venture into the public arena and impact on the lives others who do not share this presumptious opinion and you may reightfully be called a bigot.

[M.Dancer]

There is no evidence people are born gay M Dancer. In fact I think most evidence reveals the opposite. There was scientist who thought he may have identified a gay gene, but it was mostly theoretical and this became the big argument for the gay movement. Personally I believe gays are affected by some sexual trauma in early development, and I dont think they really choose to be gay. By the same token many people dont choose to be alcoholics, or addicts. We all have our problems to bear, and our thorns in our sides. Having high blood pressure and a violent past doesnt give you license to commit violent acts more than anyone else. But I can understand where gay people may need more love and mercy than others, because of this situation.

You are quite the self-righteous compassionate Christian aren't you.

O.k. let us try show you the same love and mercy I am sure you manifest to gay people.

To start with I do not know what planet you come from, but on the planet earth the medical and scientific communities have long since come to the conclusion that one's sexual drive is genetically programmed and homo-sexuality is a natural built in mechacnism in all life forms not just humans.

Now again I want to show you mercy and compassion so how about I ask you to actually read something other then what you are comfortable with. Here's a hint. Try read up on scientific studies where the brains

of lesbians (don't worry they were dead) were examined and the structure of the brains, the coils were similiar to those of males and NOT females clearly proving that homo-sexuality is defined by chromosones, hormones, and a myriad of chemicals and physical biological mattre predisposed or pre-designed in the dna code.

Here is the point. You are absolutely dead wrong when say there is no scientific evidence. That said some of us are genetically predisposed. Environmental conditioning can shape sexual behaviour but it does not

necessarily make it permanent. Here is an example to show you why your comments are silly.

Men in prison will engage in homo-sexuality but it doesn't make them homo-sexuals. They revert back to

hetero-sexuality the moment they can get their hands on a woman.

Likewise men who are molested as children don't magically turn gay. It doesn't work that way.

There are again oodles of studies to show that children of gay parents don't turn gay because they have

same sex parents.

Now as for your analogy that homo-sexuality is akin to alcoholism you can use your coded Christian words of mercy and kindness but when you equate homo-sexuality to alcoholism, violence, crime you really are engaging in a passive form of hatred based on ignorance.

Having sex with someone of the same sex is not self-destructive, its not violent and in fact it is quite healthy if someone is genuinely gay and with another genuinely gay person. Uh hello, the medical community long since declassified being gay as a mental illness or a crime.

Sounds to me like you are a tad hung up on homo-sexuality. Sorry everytime I read someone who uses their religion to suggest homo-sexuality is a sin, I immediately think the writer is repressing his own homo-sexual urges and thus makes such comments because it makes no logical sense.

Sexual acts between consenting adults and that is the key, between consenting adults are not right or wrong-they are a private matter of expression that those two adults and only those two adults define.

Sorry but for you to make blanket statements that homo-sexuality is akin to a substance abuse problem or criminal violence is hateful not just ignorant because you are now imposing negative motives in the minds of gay people.

Let me say this to you with mercy and compassion. Your couching your ignoance and fear of homo-sexuality with religion doesn't make it respectable.

I am calling you out on it and I am saying to you, if you want to use religion to discriminate and deem certain people sinful because they do things you are not comfortable with, be my guest but please don't come across as being a loving and compassionate. You aint.

Well said.....that's loving the sinner but hating the sin for you.

[jefferiah]

There is no evidence people are born gay M Dancer. In fact I think most evidence reveals the opposite. There was scientist who thought he may have identified a gay gene, but it was mostly theoretical and this became the big argument for the gay movement. Personally I believe gays are affected by some sexual trauma in early development, and I dont think they really choose to be gay. By the same token many people dont choose to be alcoholics, or addicts. We all have our problems to bear, and our thorns in our sides. Having high blood pressure and a violent past doesnt give you license to commit violent acts more than anyone else. But I can understand where gay people may need more love and mercy than others, because of this situation.

You are quite the self-righteous compassionate Christian aren't you.

O.k. let us try show you the same love and mercy I am sure you manifest to gay people.

To start with I do not know what planet you come from, but on the planet earth the medical and scientific communities have long since come to the conclusion that one's sexual drive is genetically programmed and homo-sexuality is a natural built in mechacnism in all life forms not just humans.

Now again I want to show you mercy and compassion so how about I ask you to actually read something other then what you are comfortable with. Here's a hint. Try read up on scientific studies where the brains

of lesbians (don't worry they were dead) were examined and the structure of the brains, the coils were similiar to those of males and NOT females clearly proving that homo-sexuality is defined by chromosones, hormones, and a myriad of chemicals and physical biological mattre predisposed or pre-designed in the dna code.

Here is the point. You are absolutely dead wrong when say there is no scientific evidence. That said some of us are genetically predisposed. Environmental conditioning can shape sexual behaviour but it does not

necessarily make it permanent. Here is an example to show you why your comments are silly.

Men in prison will engage in homo-sexuality but it doesn't make them homo-sexuals. They revert back to

hetero-sexuality the moment they can get their hands on a woman.

Likewise men who are molested as children don't magically turn gay. It doesn't work that way.

There are again oodles of studies to show that children of gay parents don't turn gay because they have

same sex parents.

Now as for your analogy that homo-sexuality is akin to alcoholism you can use your coded Christian words of mercy and kindness but when you equate homo-sexuality to alcoholism, violence, crime you really are engaging in a passive form of hatred based on ignorance.

Having sex with someone of the same sex is not self-destructive, its not violent and in fact it is quite healthy if someone is genuinely gay and with another genuinely gay person. Uh hello, the medical community long since declassified being gay as a mental illness or a crime.

Sounds to me like you are a tad hung up on homo-sexuality. Sorry everytime I read someone who uses their religion to suggest homo-sexuality is a sin, I immediately think the writer is repressing his own homo-sexual urges and thus makes such comments because it makes no logical sense.

Sexual acts between consenting adults and that is the key, between consenting adults are not right or wrong-they are a private matter of expression that those two adults and only those two adults define.

Sorry but for you to make blanket statements that homo-sexuality is akin to a substance abuse problem or criminal violence is hateful not just ignorant because you are now imposing negative motives in the minds of gay people.

Let me say this to you with mercy and compassion. Your couching your ignoance and fear of homo-sexuality with religion doesn't make it respectable.

I am calling you out on it and I am saying to you, if you want to use religion to discriminate and deem certain people sinful because they do things you are not comfortable with, be my guest but please don't come across as being a loving and compassionate. You aint.

I think you have me wrong here. Self-righteousness would imply that I think I am better than gay people. The bible indicates that all men are sinners. I never said gay people should be treated any less than sinners such as I am. I am an adulterer. That is just as bad. But I am a sinner. Thats the point. When a religion does not condone a certain act it does not mean they are intolerant or that they think all those people should be punished and removed from society. Religion does not condone many things I have done in life, but I dont say that they should soften their values or water them down for me. Like many sects of buddhism which promote vegetarianism and call meat-eating a sin. I dont say they are ostracizing me from society because I eat meat. Believing something is a sin is not self-righteous. Believing you are less a sinner than someone is self-righteous. I may be the worse sinner in this whole forum. All I am saying is there is nothing wrong with saying that you believe something is wrong. If you start a religion and you believe painting your toe nails is wrong, thats your business isnt it.

[jefferiah]

There is no evidence people are born gay M Dancer. In fact I think most evidence reveals the opposite. There was scientist who thought he may have identified a gay gene, but it was mostly theoretical and this became the big argument for the gay movement. Personally I believe gays are affected by some sexual trauma in early development, and I dont think they really choose to be gay. By the same token many people dont choose to be alcoholics, or addicts. We all have our problems to bear, and our thorns in our sides. Having high blood pressure and a violent past doesnt give you license to commit violent acts more than anyone else. But I can understand where gay people may need more love and mercy than others, because of this situation.

You are quite the self-righteous compassionate Christian aren't you.

O.k. let us try show you the same love and mercy I am sure you manifest to gay people.

To start with I do not know what planet you come from, but on the planet earth the medical and scientific communities have long since come to the conclusion that one's sexual drive is genetically programmed and homo-sexuality is a natural built in mechacnism in all life forms not just humans.

Now again I want to show you mercy and compassion so how about I ask you to actually read something other then what you are comfortable with. Here's a hint. Try read up on scientific studies where the brains

of lesbians (don't worry they were dead) were examined and the structure of the brains, the coils were similiar to those of males and NOT females clearly proving that homo-sexuality is defined by chromosones, hormones, and a myriad of chemicals and physical biological mattre predisposed or pre-designed in the dna code.

Here is the point. You are absolutely dead wrong when say there is no scientific evidence. That said some of us are genetically predisposed. Environmental conditioning can shape sexual behaviour but it does not

necessarily make it permanent. Here is an example to show you why your comments are silly.

Men in prison will engage in homo-sexuality but it doesn't make them homo-sexuals. They revert back to

hetero-sexuality the moment they can get their hands on a woman.

Likewise men who are molested as children don't magically turn gay. It doesn't work that way.

There are again oodles of studies to show that children of gay parents don't turn gay because they have

same sex parents.

Now as for your analogy that homo-sexuality is akin to alcoholism you can use your coded Christian words of mercy and kindness but when you equate homo-sexuality to alcoholism, violence, crime you really are engaging in a passive form of hatred based on ignorance.

Having sex with someone of the same sex is not self-destructive, its not violent and in fact it is quite healthy if someone is genuinely gay and with another genuinely gay person. Uh hello, the medical community long since declassified being gay as a mental illness or a crime.

Sounds to me like you are a tad hung up on homo-sexuality. Sorry everytime I read someone who uses their religion to suggest homo-sexuality is a sin, I immediately think the writer is repressing his own homo-sexual urges and thus makes such comments because it makes no logical sense.

Sexual acts between consenting adults and that is the key, between consenting adults are not right or wrong-they are a private matter of expression that those two adults and only those two adults define.

Sorry but for you to make blanket statements that homo-sexuality is akin to a substance abuse problem or criminal violence is hateful not just ignorant because you are now imposing negative motives in the minds of gay people.

Let me say this to you with mercy and compassion. Your couching your ignoance and fear of homo-sexuality with religion doesn't make it respectable.

I am calling you out on it and I am saying to you, if you want to use religion to discriminate and deem certain people sinful because they do things you are not comfortable with, be my guest but please don't come across as being a loving and compassionate. You aint.

I think you have me wrong here. Self-righteousness would imply that I think I am better than gay people. The bible indicates that all men are sinners. I never said gay people should be treated any less than sinners such as I am. I am an adulterer. That is just as bad. But I am a sinner. Thats the point. When a religion does not condone a certain act it does not mean they are intolerant or that they think all those people should be punished and removed from society. Religion does not condone many things I have done in life, but I dont say that they should soften their values or water them down for me. Like many sects of buddhism which promote vegetarianism and call meat-eating a sin. I dont say they are ostracizing me from society because I eat meat. Believing something is a sin is not self-righteous. Believing you are less a sinner than someone is self-righteous. I may be the worse sinner in this whole forum. All I am saying is there is nothing wrong with saying that you believe something is wrong. If you start a religion and you believe painting your toe nails is wrong, thats your business isnt it.

many people have a tough view on smoking cigarettes as being wrong, but they tolerate smokers and are kind to them. so being against something does not mean you think you are better. do all anti-smoking people think they are better than smokers simply because they believe smoking is wrong. undoubtedly some do, rue. but to say that you are against smoking does not mean you are a self-righteous persecutor of people who smoke.

[Charles Anthony]

I would like to put forth a very serious type of sin:

Thou shalt not clutter the forum with extraneous self-replied super-quoted auto-sequential chain-posts.

Edit your posts to be more concise.

[M.Dancer]

many people have a tough view on smoking cigarettes as being wrong, but they tolerate smokers and are kind to them. so being against something does not mean you think you are better. do all anti-smoking people think they are better than smokers simply because they believe smoking is wrong. undoubtedly some do, rue. but to say that you are against smoking does not mean you are a self-righteous persecutor of people who smoke.

On the contrary. I do not tollerate smoking. I do think I'm better than they are, especially in aerobic activities.....

.....on the otherhand, very few people have their lives defined as smokers....no one would deny employment to a smoker, refuse to marry smokers.....smoking is an activity, homosexuality is not.

Your problem is you equate being gay with lifestyles and handicaps.....try equating being gay with being chinese....or left handednes...or being a short plump woman......

..........then see if you are not being a pretentious prat.

[jefferiah]

Well the Bible says its wrong more than once.

1) You're interpretation of what the bible says may in itself be wrong

2) The bible is often wrong

3) Times change

4) many people do not believe in the bible

5) Call it a sin, but keep your opinion to yourself, let it venture into the public arena and impact on the lives others who do not share this presumptious opinion and you may reightfully be called a bigot.

I never said you had to agree with the Bible. I said that its not intolerant to call something wrong. To believe something is wrong does not mean you automatically want to go out and persecute people, just as people who dislike smoking are not beating smokers up, or Buddhist sects that believe eating flesh is evil dont attack people who do eat meat. But they do say it is wrong. This is our position. If you want to join their monastery and become a monk there you will have to shave your head and give up the meat. If you dont agree with it, or the Bible. Well, dont join the monastery. But if it is a religions position that something is wrong and it is not allowed to be expressed that something is wrong in public, does a Church count as a public place. What sort of religious freedom is there if a religion cannot say what it believes is right or wrong, but the preacher would be restricted to "keeping his opinion to himself". Even if that sect is operating on its own interpretation of that religion as you say, although I think the Bible does make it pretty clear.

[M.Dancer]

I never said you had to agree with the Bible. I said that its not intolerant to call something wrong. To believe something is wrong does not mean you automatically want to go out and persecute people, just as people who dislike smoking are not beating smokers up, or Buddhist sects that believe eating flesh is evil dont attack people who do eat meat. But they do say it is wrong. This is our position. If you want to join their monastery and become a monk there you will have to shave your head and give up the meat. If you dont agree with it, or the Bible. Well, dont join the monastery. But if it is a religions position that something is wrong and it is not allowed to be expressed that something is wrong in public, does a Church count as a public place. What sort of religious freedom is there if a religion cannot say what it believes is right or wrong, but the preacher would be restricted to "keeping his opinion to himself". Even if that sect is operating on its own interpretation of that religion as you say, although I think the Bible does make it pretty clear.

Would you allow a monogamous married gay/lesbian couple to adopt?

and why?

...remember now, you say you do not want to persecute..........

[jefferiah]

I dont decide who adopts who. All I am saying is I support the church's freedom to declare its belief that homosexuality is a sin. This does not mean homosexuals are being kicked out of Church either. Some will say but its a passive discrimination because this is saying that they are doing something wrong and this will offend them and drive them away. But this was not put into place to drive them out. This has been the position of the Church for years. Everybody who sits in a Church is guilty of something the Church condemns. We can't change their standards cause we dont like them. And actually there are many homosexuals who have opted for the opinion that homosexuality is a sin, the church was right, and they have no problem being accepted and fighting what they consider and evil temptation. So therefore it cannot be said that the Church saying homosexuality is wrong is excluding homosexuals. A practicing homosexual is allowed to go to Church. If he does not like their position on homosexuality, he doesnt have to stay there. If you dont want to shave your head, give up meat, you dont have to join a Rinzai Buddhist Monastery.

[jefferiah]

There is no evidence people are born gay M Dancer. In fact I think most evidence reveals the opposite. There was scientist who thought he may have identified a gay gene, but it was mostly theoretical and this became the big argument for the gay movement. Personally I believe gays are affected by some sexual trauma in early development, and I dont think they really choose to be gay. By the same token many people dont choose to be alcoholics, or addicts. We all have our problems to bear, and our thorns in our sides. Having high blood pressure and a violent past doesnt give you license to commit violent acts more than anyone else. But I can understand where gay people may need more love and mercy than others, because of this situation.

To start with I do not know what planet you come from, but on the planet earth the medical and scientific communities have long since come to the conclusion that one's sexual drive is genetically programmed and homo-sexuality is a natural built in mechanism in all life forms not just humans.

You may wish to venture outside yoru comfort zone and read up on scientific studies where the brains

of lesbians (don't worry they were dead) were examined and the structure of the brains, the coils were similiar to those of males and NOT females clearly proving that homo-sexuality is defined by chromosones, hormones, and a myriad of chemicals and physical biological mattre predisposed or pre-designed in the dna code.

Here is the point. You are absolutely dead wrong when say there is no scientific evidence and all you have to do is read. That said environmental conditioning can shape sexual behaviour but it does not necessarily make it permanent. For example, men in prison will engage in homo-sexuality but it doesn't make them homo-sexuals. They revert back to

hetero-sexuality the moment they can get their hands on a woman Likewise men who are molested as children don't magically turn gay. It doesn't work that way.

There are again oodles of studies to show that children of gay parents don't turn gay because they have same sex parents.

Despire your using coded Christian words of mercy and kindness to describe yourself, for you equate homo-sexuality to alcoholism, violence, and/or crime are expressions of hatred based on your inability come come to terms with homo-sexuality. You will have to look inside yourself to figure that one out. What I can say to you is that vaving sex with someone of the same sex is not self-destructive, its not violent and in fact it is quite healthy if someone is genuinely gay and with another genuinely gay person and the medical community long since declassified being gay as a mental illness or a crime. Sexual acts between consenting adults and that is the key, between consenting adults are not right or wrong-they are a private matter of expression that those two adults and only those two adults can define their meaning and context not you.

Sorry but for you to make blanket statements that homo-sexuality is akin to a substance abuse problem or criminal violence is hateful not just ignorant because you are now imposing negative motives to the minds of gay people and that is intellectually dishonest.

Look Rue I am not stopping people from being gay. But I have a right to believe its wrong and to profess that belief. I never said gays were like alcoholics or criminals or as bad or better, I said that those things can also be said to have been determined by genetics. You dont know me. You dont know if my words or my meanings are coded or not. You are making a lot generalizations about me. To say that not believing homosexuality is right, is to be a closet homosexual is also preposterous. Thats like saying women who complain about a man grabbing their chest in the workplace really want it. Actually you should do a lot more reading. I am on this planet. Alot of scientists, and scientific journals have posted that there is no proof of gay genetics. Even argued such. Whenever there is an iota of support for the born gay theory, it is pushed hard in the media however, this is because it is considered safer to promote the science to the public that is less offensive to any sort of activist. That said I have a gay friend, and I am able to be friends with him despite the fact that I believe being gay is immoral. This is what tolerance really is. I dont have to be a liberal or agree with Liberal policies to get along with my friends and neighbours who are Liberal, or a Conservative, or a Liberatarian, or anything else. I never started this thread. I just responded with my own reasons for saying that I dont think Jesus would have condoned homosexuality as much as modern people would like to be believe, using the fact that he was merciful and compassionate as their argument. This was in direct response originally to a poster who said Jesus would condone gay marriage. This assertion was made about Jesus, long before M Dancer accused the church of "being presumptious on what God thinks." Well I thought the poster who said these things about Jesus were presumptious before I was.

[M.Dancer]

You might want to re -read what I said about Jesus..........

[jefferiah]

many people have a tough view on smoking cigarettes as being wrong, but they tolerate smokers and are kind to them. so being against something does not mean you think you are better. do all anti-smoking people think they are better than smokers simply because they believe smoking is wrong. undoubtedly some do, rue. but to say that you are against smoking does not mean you are a self-righteous persecutor of people who smoke.

On the contrary. I do not tollerate smoking. I do think I'm better than they are, especially in aerobic activities.....

.....on the otherhand, very few people have their lives defined as smokers....no one would deny employment to a smoker, refuse to marry smokers.....smoking is an activity, homosexuality is not.

Your problem is you equate being gay with lifestyles and handicaps.....try equating being gay with being chinese....or left handednes...or being a short plump woman......

..........then see if you are not being a pretentious prat.

I never said smoking and being gay were the same thing, I said that thinking something is wrong does not presuppose intolerance. I never said gays should be denied jobs. But I think they could leave gayness at the door. I worked at a job with a gay guy said some of the most vulgar things around the office, and did alot of things that would have constituted a serious harrassment charge if a man had said the equivalent to a woman. But nobody dared to complain about him, for fear of him playing the bigot card. Anyways, I know all gays are not like that, either. And also yes, smoking is now starting to be considered in hiring. And alot of people wont date smokers. The was an Alberta pastor not so long ago who wrote to the government to complain about his tax dollars funding so many gay rights groups, which sometimes make ridiculous use of tons of money. I know people who do not feel being gay is wrong who think that no one should have to fund this. Anyways, maybe you dont agree with that. Thats fine. The point is the pastor is facing human rights charges for writing and complaining about this. Seriously, I think all humans deserve rights and humane treatment but when the human rights groups are now condemning people for statements or for disagreeing with them, i think they may be going overboard. Who is forcing whose beliefs on who?

[jefferiah]

You might want to re -read what I said about Jesus..........

You werent the one who said jesus condoned homosexuality. You are the one who said it was presumptious to assume he didnt.

[jefferiah]

I am defending the right of those who believe as Christianity has for years that homosexuality is a sin. You say it is our interpretation, well thats our right. We are not trying to attack gays or beat them up. We just want to be able to say its against our faith to be homosexual without being legislated against by human rights groups. Any other interpretation of the Christian view on homosexuality is fairly recent, and waters down all historic and traditional sexual ethics, and changes it to suit whatever lifestyle the individual enjoys. If you want to start a Gay Reform Church I cannot stop you. But dont tell me my church has to change its view on homosexuality.

[jefferiah]

Just for the record I believe the definition of self-righteous is believing that you aremore righteous than someone else. Believing that homosexuality, or that anything, is wrong does not mean you believe you are better, because we have all done wrong. I never once said I was less a sinner than anyone, homosexual, straight, self-righteous, criminal, addict, Hitler, or anyone.

[Figleaf]

If you caught your son injecting himself with heroin in his room, ...You would not take him outside and stone him.

You wouldn't have to -- he's already stoned!

[newbie]

Well the Bible says its wrong more than once.

So you approve of stoning persons for all the "sins" listed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy? You have to be consistent if you're going to pull that "the Bible says so" stuff. And again, Jesus didn't say ANYTHING about homosexuality.

[M.Dancer]

You might want to re -read what I said about Jesus..........

You werent the one who said jesus condoned homosexuality. You are the one who said it was presumptious to assume he didnt.

Try to be clearer then......

[jefferiah]

Actually if you re-read my post M Dancer, you will see that I said "someone" asserted that Jesus was a pacifist socialist. Then I said that M Dancer called me presumptious after that.

[M.Dancer]

Actually if you re-read my post M Dancer, you will see that I said "someone" asserted that Jesus was a pacifist socialist. Then I said that M Dancer called me presumptious after that.

Which is why I thought you were speaking none too politely of me.

On another point.....

The woman caught in the act of adultery......interestingly, jesus did not forgive her.....in fact, he didn't even accuse her.......

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?She said, No man, Lord.

And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee : go, and sin no more.

Here's what I think.....given that there are hundreds of references to the abuse of power, the ill treatment of the poor and the wrath of god against those who do and only a few cryptic passages about gays....I think the attention the "church" as you call it (which church, who's church?) is over blown.....the right amount of attention given the outrages against God and nature.....with graneries overflowing and children starving........would be somewhere between J-walking and litterbugging......

[jefferiah]

Well the Bible says its wrong more than once.

So you approve of stoning persons for all the "sins" listed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy? You have to be consistent if you're going to pull that "the Bible says so" stuff. And again, Jesus didn't say ANYTHING about homosexuality.

I am glad you brought this point up. If you read all of my posts I said that while Jesus did not soften his view on sin (he made the standard even stricter), he also increased mercy toward the sinner (all of us). Don't you see that. He stopped the stoning of the adulteress, not because the law was wrong in saying that adultery was wrong, but because he was merciful, and not one of those men had the right to throw that stone. According to Jesus whoever looked at a woman lustfully was committing the same crime. Mercy is not Leniency. He was not promoting free love when he chose to be merciful. Now you say Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. He never said anything about pedophilia or necrophilia either, mind you. But Jesus was a Jewish person, and he said not one iota of the law would disappear. He did say that laws concerning ritual cleanliness were superficial, and that people who thought of themselves as better because they washed their hands before eating needed to rethink things. The early Church which was comprised of the men Jesus taught personally did not condone homosexuality. If you read the first Chapter of Pauls letter to the Romans, you will see that men exchaning natural relation for unnatural ones and doing perverted acts with other men, is one of the many sins of mankind mentioned. If you read this you will see that Paul does not single this sin out, but mentions many other sins as well, and then later says "We all have done these things." Paul was not being self-righteous. He never said one sin was better than another. He just said sin was sin.

[jefferiah]

Actually if you re-read my post M Dancer, you will see that I said "someone" asserted that Jesus was a pacifist socialist. Then I said that M Dancer called me presumptious after that.

Which is why I thought you were speaking none too politely of me.

On another point.....

The woman caught in the act of adultery......interestingly, jesus did not forgive her.....in fact, he didn't even accuse her.......

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?She said, No man, Lord.

And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee : go, and sin no more.

Here's what I think.....given that there are hundreds of references to the abuse of power, the ill treatment of the poor and the wrath of god against those who do and only a few cryptic passages about gays....I think the attention the "church" as you call it (which church, who's church?) is over blown.....the right amount of attention given the outrages against God and nature.....with graneries overflowing and children starving........would be somewhere between J-walking and litterbugging......

Condemned means punished. Adultery is still a sin. I am not saying people who are straight, monogamous and meanwhile destroy the environment and exploit nations are better either. I am saying that the fact that we call homosexuality a sin is neither self-righteous, nor does it mean that we hate homosexuals. Who is stoning homosexuals?