The Simple Reason For Religious Homophobia

[jefferiah]

I don't know jefferiah. The meaning I get from the New Testatment is love and forgiveness. You seem to be steeped in judgement and I belieive Jesus had something to say about that too.

I never said anything against love and forgiveness. I said that believing homosexuality is a sin is not unloving or unforgiving Newbie. I never said homosexuals dont deserve to be forgiven. I said I believe it is a sin. You may not agree that it is a sin. But i never said homosexuals do not deserve love or forgiveness.

[newbie]

So you don't judge homosexuals or sinners then?

[jefferiah]

I don't know jefferiah. The meaning I get from the New Testatment is love and forgiveness. You seem to be steeped in judgement and I belieive Jesus had something to say about that too.

I never said anything against love and forgiveness. I said that believing homosexuality is a sin is not unloving or unforgiving Newbie. I never said homosexuals dont deserve to be forgiven. I said I believe it is a sin. You may not agree that it is a sin. But i never said homosexuals do not deserve love or forgiveness.

Once again, I will repeat what I said about the woman accused of adultery who was dragged out to be stoned. She was no worse a sinner than the men who wanted to stone her, but Jesus loved her and he forgave her and saved her from that fate. But the mercy he extended to her does not mean he was saying to her "Yep I support adultery. Its A-OK by me." Can you not see the difference?

[newbie]

I'm talking about you, not Jesus.

[jefferiah]

So you don't judge homosexuals or sinners then?

Well everyone is guilty of judging sinners. But I dont believe homosexuals should endure punishment from any man. I cant stop homosexuals from having sexual relations with others of the same gender. I dont think they are worse sinners than I am. I cannot make you believe that it is a sin. But believing something is a sin does not make one judgemental. If this were so then believing in any sort of morality no matter what it is, would be self-righteous. Although alot of my views coincide with many conservative views, I dont believe in capital punishment. But I do believe in the incarceration of dangerous criminals for the protection of the general population. I dont believe a homosexual is any worse than adulterer, and I am guilty of this. When the church says adultery is wrong, it doesnt necessarily mean they are being judgemental of me. Having the standard that something is right or wrong is not bad. I used to feel Christians were very judgemental, indeed some very well are. But alot of them are very open to the suffering and temptations that sinners face in life. But they dont soften the standards on sin. They encourage each other to struggle against what they consider sins, whether it be homosexuality, or adultery, or porn addiction or whatever.

[newbie]

Glad you cleared that up. I don't judge either as I believe we judge ourselves. Sin is man made, or if you prefer from a 2000 year+ ancient book. I adhere to laws of the land, but do not judge anyone. EDIT: That is the role of lawmakers and Caesar if you will.

[jefferiah]

So you don't judge homosexuals or sinners then?

Well everyone is guilty of judging sinners. But I dont believe homosexuals should endure punishment from any man. I cant stop homosexuals from having sexual relations with others of the same gender. I dont think they are worse sinners than I am. I cannot make you believe that it is a sin. But believing something is a sin does not make one judgemental. If this were so then believing in any sort of morality no matter what it is, would be self-righteous. Although alot of my views coincide with many conservative views, I dont believe in capital punishment. But I do believe in the incarceration of dangerous criminals for the protection of the general population. I dont believe a homosexual is any worse than adulterer, and I am guilty of this. When the church says adultery is wrong, it doesnt necessarily mean they are being judgemental of me. Having the standard that something is right or wrong is not bad. I used to feel Christians were very judgemental, indeed some very well are. But alot of them are very open to the suffering and temptations that sinners face in life. But they dont soften the standards on sin. They encourage each other to struggle against what they consider sins, whether it be homosexuality, or adultery, or porn addiction or whatever.

Yes I certainly am guilty of being judgemental of others. I have been judgemental very many times in life. I probably will again. But I assert that there is a difference between believing something to be a sin and being judgemental. Dont judge the standard put in place by my beliefs by my inability to live up to it.

Suppose there were a man who had committed theft. He steals 1 million dollars from lets say a Children's Fund. Then a week later another man steals 10 dollars from this man. The man who stole ten dollars did not steal as much. He did not steal it from children either. Now suppose the original theif says "look look, what sort of a man is this that steals ten dollars from someone. how awful? i am glad i am not like him." That would be judgemental. The thief believes he is better than another sinner right. But I ask you was it right for the second theif to steal?

[newbie]

It is wrong to steal according to the laws of the country I live in. I have no judgement about that. That is up to the lawmakers. Is is right? Because I would not do it doesn't mean I am judging. I am following the laws of the land. Do you see the difference? How do you know the man wasn't starving? How do you know anything about the man who steals? Is is stealing to feed a family for instance when it can be justified? That's up to the judges.

[jefferiah]

It is wrong to steal according to the laws of the country I live in. I have no judgement about that. That is up to the lawmakers. Is is right? Because I would not do it doesn't mean I am judging. I am following the laws of the land. Do you see the difference? How do you know the man wasn't starving? How do you know anything about the man who steals? Is is stealing to feed a family for instance?

Lets say for the sake of argument he is stealing cuz his debit card is broke, the bank is closed, and he wants a six pack to watch the game with tonight. He has no kids. He's a bachelor. Lol..

The point is saying that the theft of ten dollars is wrong is not judgemental or self-righteous. But when the original theif says "what sort of awful man is this. i am glad i am not like him" he has not only called this other man a sinner (which may be true)----but he is asserting that this man is horrible while he is nothing like that. Now my personal view of homosexuality is that they deserve the same kind of mercy and forgiveness I get when I commit sins. You may not feel that homosexuality is a sin. And I cannot convince you of this. But my belief that it is, does not mean I think I am better. I have struggled with many things in my life. Addictions, bad thoughts, habits---and I struggle to this day and I often fail and sometimes I deliberately rebel against my own beliefs. So I know that it aint easy for anyone. I know it aint easy for homosexuals. But the belief that something is wrong does not make one judgemental. I believe that hindus believe that beef eating is wrong. Or maybe certain sects. You know the sacred cow thing. Now as a cow-eater I dont feel that hindus are being judgemental of me simply because they believe it is wrong.

[newbie]

I think if you mean wrong in the sense of not being in accordance with what is morally right or good then that is definitely a judgmental call. I do not think homosexuality is bad and therefore requires no judgement on my part. Once again, I follow the laws of the land, and they dictate what is legal (wrong) or not. Otherwise, right and wrong are moral judgments. I have things I dislike and like but attach no religious morality to them. I don't believe in sin and only try and improve on a daily basis those things of my character that need improvement. I am on a spiritual path, not a religious one.