"Labrador communities fear losing net connection"...

[Charles Anthony]

A lot of the people who are objecting to this seem to be doing it on similar grounds. I don't have it. I don't need it. Why should they have it?

It sounds quite the opposite to me. It sounds like the people in Labrador are the ones being smug.

It sounds like they are saying: "Everybody else has it. Therefore, we should have it too." -- as if they are entitled.

[geoffrey]

Whoever it was who mentioned the daily flights from St. John's to Fort McMoney needs to remember that the workers get on the flights - the family stays behind. Not everyone can pick up and move to Alberta.

Why not? Make your $100k with overtime and benefits out on the rigs, that's enough to throw everyone on a plane. Buy a crappy little house in Edmonton and commute from the camps to home on the weekends. Easily done. Lots of people do it.

[Led Boots]

Whoever it was who mentioned the daily flights from St. John's to Fort McMoney needs to remember that the workers get on the flights - the family stays behind. Not everyone can pick up and move to Alberta.

...and when a Calgarian or Edmontonian jump in a truck to head to Red Earth or Zama Lake they also leave their families behind for weeks or even months at a time.

I spent around 2 years working overseas after 9/11 because the work in Alberta came to a stand still. My family stayed in Sydney Australia while I toiled in the outback eating red dirt and swatting at bugs the size of rats...why? because thats what it took to support my family. I also worked in shitholes like Abadan Iran, various parts of Libya and eastern europe the whole time separated from my loved ones.

Higgly, I think the difference between us is that you find it acceptable for someone to wake up in the morning and sit on the couch wondering if the government will send them a cheque today, while I wake up in the morning, bypass the couch and wonder what I can do to EARN a cheque today.

[Rovik]

Second, the same arguments you make for internet access can also be said for mobile phone access. Yet the government doesn't subsidize mobile phone access. Why aren't you demanding cheap mobile phone access?

Actually there is a program that provided for free usage of satellite phones in the winter time when travelling through Labrador

Many (even most) necessities will cost more in remote areas. It cost more to ship food and goods there. Are you expecting the rest of society to subsidize all items so that it is the same cost in remote areas as urban areas just because some people have unlaterially made a choice to live there?

These remote areas often provide the raw materials that are manufactured elsewhere (factories and the like) so they are pretty important in the scheme of things.

And what is your justification for the govt. subsidizing corporations? I'm sure that taxpayers in Labrador see no benefit in their tax money going to oil and gas companies in Alberta or automobile plants in Ontario.

Provinces can be considered "equal" only when they are equal in all aspects including how much they contribute. Until then some are net contributors and some are dependants.

In a perfect world, all provinces are equal and net contributors but due to economic and other factors as plain luck (easy access oil fields and close vicinity to the US market,) this is not the case. We as citizens of Canada, would like to see basic standards in all provinces from coast to coast and sometimes to ensure standards, the net contributors give to the dependents. Right now Alberta, Ontario and BC are net contributors but who is to say how things may be like in 50 years. Maybe by then they develop an alternative to oil and gas and due to beneficial changes in Newfoundland, Newfoundland is the net contributor and Alberta is the dependent. I would have no qualms about Newfoundland giving to Alberta because that's what good neighbours and partners in this Confederation are for...to help others in need and to be helped when in need.

You might laugh when I say that Newfoundland could be a net contributor, but one must remember that Newfoundland has come a long way recently, for example, the last few years have had a balanced budget, which were unheard of in the past. If Newfoundland can negotiate a fair and just royalty system with the oil and gas companies, if the mines in Labrador continue to prosper and grow, if the fishery is "fixed" and if other opportunities such as tourism continue to develop then Newfoundland could be a net contributor in the future, happy to help out any of its partners in Confederation who are in need.

[Renegade]

Actually there is a program that provided for free usage of satellite phones in the winter time when travelling through Labrador

Do you have a cite for this? Does the federal government subsidize this? In my view they shouldn't.

These remote areas often provide the raw materials that are manufactured elsewhere (factories and the like) so they are pretty important in the scheme of things.

Maybe, but then the worth of those raw materials should be reflected in the price. If those raw materials fetch a high price, then the people who extract them in remote areas can demand higher labour rates and consequently use that labour premium to pay for the additional cost of infrastructure.

And what is your justification for the govt. subsidizing corporations? I'm sure that taxpayers in Labrador see no benefit in their tax money going to oil and gas companies in Alberta or automobile plants in Ontario.

None. I don't think corporations should be subsidized either.

In a perfect world, all provinces are equal and net contributors but due to economic and other factors as plain luck (easy access oil fields and close vicinity to the US market,) this is not the case. We as citizens of Canada, would like to see basic standards in all provinces from coast to coast and sometimes to ensure standards, the net contributors give to the dependents. Right now Alberta, Ontario and BC are net contributors but who is to say how things may be like in 50 years. Maybe by then they develop an alternative to oil and gas and due to beneficial changes in Newfoundland, Newfoundland is the net contributor and Alberta is the dependent. I would have no qualms about Newfoundland giving to Alberta because that's what good neighbours and partners in this Confederation are for...to help others in need and to be helped when in need.

You might laugh whn I say that Newfoundland could be a net contributor but one must remember that Newfoundlan has come a long way recently and the last few years have had a balanced budget, which were unheard of in the past. If Newfoundland can negotiate a fair and just royalty system with the oil and gas companies, if the mines in Labrador continue to prosper and grow, if the fishery is "fixed" and if other opportunities such as tourism continue to develop then Newfoundland could be a net contributor in the future, happy to help out any of its partners in Confederation who are in need.

I think you are making broad assumptions about the views of all the citizens of Canada. I think you cannot make those generalizations and views vary greatly province by province or even municpality by muncipality. Not everyone believes in a poolled model or even that many of the currently dependant provinces will ever come out of their dependancy.

[Rovik]

I’m not sure what your point is here but television is definitely not a necessity. Indoor plumbing is nice. We didn’t have it when I lived in Manitoba. I gained a greater understanding of the phrase “blue balls” during that time.

My point was that yes, Internet access is not a necessity but it can have a positive, important impact on someone. Look at the Conservative's policy to give tax credits to people using public transit, it's not necessary but it is benefical to the environment. Same logic when you compare the two.

This isn’t a quality of life issue…my quality of life is no different now then it was before I got internet access. Having lived the rural life I know how people view “goin’ inta town”. It’s a planned for event. Pay the bills, shop, visit, run errands…etc. No need to waste gas, it’s all done in one trip or it doesn’t get done until the next trip inta town.

I believe it can be a quality of life issue. If someone can do an online course that wouldn't be taught locally, perhaps to complete a course towards a university degree or even to finish high school then yes, it's a quality of life issue.

Secondly, I don’t have Alberta’s money either and I work anywhere from 60 to 80hrs a week to pay for things like internet access. You want to take money from people like me to pay for internet access in rural Labrador so people can e-mail each other, pay their bills online and whatever else constitutes e-quality of life in your opinion. Meanwhile I struggle to survive under the crushing weight of Canadian taxes and wonder where the hell I’m going to get the money for my children’s education. That about sum it up?.

Perhaps if the govt. cut all subsidies for corporations, that would lessen the tax burden on yourself.

Federal transfer programs exist so that provinces like Newfoundland and Labrador can provide the same level of health care, education and social services as the other provinces. If these provincial governments deem internet access to be a necessity then they should budget for it out of moneys received via the federal transfer program.

Often these transfer programs don't supply enough once the critical areas such as healthcare, infrastucture and so on are taking care of.

[Rovik]

If that was true, more unemployed on welfare Newfoundlanders would be helping the West with our labour shortage. We even have non-stop flights from Fort Mac to St. John's.

Why do you expect to not have to help us, but us to help you?

Thousands upon thousands of Newfoundlanders have already gone West and elsewhere, enriching the coffers of the provinces they go to (in paying taxes) and lessening the amount of money that Newfoundland receives. It was mentioned in the local paper one time that if all the people that left for jobs (in the last 100 years) came back, then the population of Newfoundlland would be well over 1 million. I believe that Newfoundlanders have helped quite a bit.

[Rovik]

A lot of the people who are objecting to this seem to be doing it on similar grounds. I don't have it. I don't need it. Why should they have it?

It sounds quite the opposite to me. It sounds like the people in Labrador are the ones being smug.

It sounds like they are saying: "Everybody else has it. Therefore, we should have it too." -- as if they are entitled.

My response is this. Is it fair that the government provides subsidies and tax breaks to automobile and oil and gas companies and in the process provide people with high paying jobs, while Labradorians, who are paying taxes don't benefit from these subsidies.

[Rovik]

Interesting new development.

Manning Working to Extend CAP

I have to give credit to Conservative MP Fabian Manning, at least he understands the importnace of the program.

[Led Boots]

My point was that yes, Internet access is not a necessity but it can have a positive, important impact on someone. Look at the Conservative's policy to give tax credits to people using public transit, it's not necessary but it is benefical to the environment. Same logic when you compare the two.

Apples to oranges.

I believe it can be a quality of life issue. If someone can do an online course that wouldn't be taught locally, perhaps to complete a course towards a university degree or even to finish high school then yes, it's a quality of life issue.

This can all be done by correspondence as well.

Perhaps if the govt. cut all subsidies for corporations, that would lessen the tax burden on yourself.

You have a legitimate point here. The only thing I would argue is that some subsidies encourage economic prosperity and are therefore needed. In the case of oil and gas companies in Alberta I whole heartedly agree, they should not be receiving subsidies at all.

Either way, two wrongs don’t make a right.

Often these transfer programs don't supply enough once the critical areas such as healthcare, infrastucture and so on are taking care of.

I’m willing to bet that if you and I took a drive through the rural areas of Labrador that have been affected by the cancellation of this program we would see satellite dishes dotting the majority of roof tops. If I am right about this (I’ve admittedly never been to Labrador) then I guess I could assume that rural Labradorean’s see the amount of television channels they can access to be more important than internet access in terms of quality of life.

I find your argument that this is a quality of life issue to be extremely weak and none of the examples you have brought forth stand up to critical review. As W&W pointed out the cost of internet services via satellite is not overly expensive, if folks in rural Labrador want internet then they can forgo some other luxury item to financially compensate for it.

Go East, Newfoundland needs some inspiration to fix their problems, a little enterprising spirit other than EI schemes would go a long way.

Off-shore possibly as much oil as Alberta, it's actually very sad the state of affairs there.

Well Geoffrey all I can say is that Newfoundlanders have as much entrepreneurial spirit as people in any other region of the country, the problem for Newfoundland is most of it is in Alberta.

Just imagine if all of the contractors and business owners from Newfoundland packed up tomorrow and went home, we’d be screwed (in Alberta).

[Led Boots]

Interesting new development.

Manning Working to Extend CAP

I have to give credit to Conservative MP Fabian Manning, at least he understands the importnace of the program.

Only if the program you're refering to is pandering for votes.

[geoffrey]

Interesting new development.

Manning Working to Extend CAP

I have to give credit to Conservative MP Fabian Manning, at least he understands the importnace of the program.

The importance of picking up a few over-represented Labrador votes?

[cybercoma]

Holy crap...

Why have I been paying for internet this whole time when all I needed to do is pester my MP to get the government to provide it for free!?

[jbg]

The importance of picking up a few over-represented Labrador votes?

Well, Labrador does supply the world with two great breeds of attack dog, the Labrador Retriever and the Newfoundland.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Holy crap...

Why have I been paying for internet this whole time when all I needed to do is pester my MP to get the government to provide it for free!?

Damn me having a Conservative for an MP. Won't buy my vote...

[Rovik]

Interesting new development.

Manning Working to Extend CAP

I have to give credit to Conservative MP Fabian Manning, at least he understands the importnace of the program.

The importance of picking up a few over-represented Labrador votes?

First, Fabian Manning is not the MP for Labrador and second are you implying that a vote in labrador is worth more than a vote in Alberta or Ontario?

[Rovik]

Holy crap...

Why have I been paying for internet this whole time when all I needed to do is pester my MP to get the government to provide it for free!?

Some of you may have a misconception that this program pays for Internet right to your house but this is not true. This is community based, usually at a school or community centre, where one has to sign in for limited time 15 min to 1/2 hour at a time and with strict guidelines on what you can or can not do.

This is to ensure equal access to all in the community, especially does who can't afford to have Internet access at home. It also provides job, even student jobs for those at these centres who answer questions to newbies who don't know how to use the Internet.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Some of you may have a misconception that this program pays for Internet right to your house but this is not true. This is community based, usually at a school or community centre, where one has to sign in for limited time 15 min to 1/2 hour at a time and with strict guidelines on what you can or can not do.

Maybe the misconception is due to the conflicting way you are presenting the facts. For example....

I believe it can be a quality of life issue. If someone can do an online course that wouldn't be taught locally, perhaps to complete a course towards a university degree or even to finish high school then yes, it's a quality of life issue.

Don't really think somebody could do a course with only having access to the Iternet 15 to 30 minutes at a pop. So your first quote makes it look like home access. If it definitely isn't than that first quote is very misleading.

[Borg]

Sounds to me like a business opportunity for an enterprising young person. Set up a local net and sell it to the community.

It has been done before in small communities - much like the one I live in. No government money - just hard work and some selling.

Borg

[geoffrey]

First, Fabian Manning is not the MP for Labrador and second are you implying that a vote in labrador is worth more than a vote in Alberta or Ontario?

Yup, it actually is. Average number of people in Newfie ridings is around 76k. In Alberta and Ontario, both around 106-107k.

Newfoundland et Labrador aren't as bad as PEI for example, but still over represented by about 25%. The least employed people in the nation have the most political power... very interesting indeed.

[Rovik]

Don't really think somebody could do a course with only having access to the Iternet 15 to 30 minutes at a pop. So your first quote makes it look like home access. If it definitely isn't than that first quote is very misleading.

Yes, there are many type of courses that can be done this way. People can download course content (much of the content may be contained within .pdf files for example) onto a diskette, cd or mini-drive. People could do exams online and if they need extra time, they can book in advance for it and explain the need for it (i'm sure most CAP centres would allow this.)

[Rovik]

Sounds to me like a business opportunity for an enterprising young person. Set up a local net and sell it to the community.

It has been done before in small communities - much like the one I live in. No government money - just hard work and some selling.

Borg

A lot of these communities don't have the infrastructure or amount of people to make this worthwhile. many of the communities are indeed connected to each other by boat or small plane so maintenance would be a real costly affair. And the startup costs in these areas are much higher than urban areas, therefore for the enterprising young person to make any money, they would have to charge a fortune to their customers.

[Rovik]

First, Fabian Manning is not the MP for Labrador and second are you implying that a vote in labrador is worth more than a vote in Alberta or Ontario?

Yup, it actually is. Average number of people in Newfie ridings is around 76k. In Alberta and Ontario, both around 106-107k.

Newfoundland et Labrador aren't as bad as PEI for example, but still over represented by about 25%. The least employed people in the nation have the most political power... very interesting indeed.

It's too bad that Newfoundland and Labrador doesn't have the seats that Ontario and Alberta have and the resulting clout because of it.

If you are so concerned about population then you should support proportional representation instead of the current electorial system we have.

[geoffrey]

First, Fabian Manning is not the MP for Labrador and second are you implying that a vote in labrador is worth more than a vote in Alberta or Ontario?

Yup, it actually is. Average number of people in Newfie ridings is around 76k. In Alberta and Ontario, both around 106-107k.

Newfoundland et Labrador aren't as bad as PEI for example, but still over represented by about 25%. The least employed people in the nation have the most political power... very interesting indeed.

It's too bad that Newfoundland and Labrador doesn't have the seats that Ontario and Alberta have and the resulting clout because of it.

If you are so concerned about population then you should support proportional representation instead of the current electorial system we have.

Ummmm nope. I don't think Newfoundland should have much clout at all. Their population is less than Calgary, their contribution to the economy is very low compared to the rest of Canada. Why should they have clout?

You asked if a Newfie vote was worth more, and it is. Then you get all upset that Newfoundland should have equal seats to Ontario or Alberta or something along those lines... I'd love to see Alberta get seats equal to Ontario, but remember, Alberta is a minor player too in the big scheme of things, despite providing much of the money into the federalist pot.

[Borg]

Sounds to me like a business opportunity for an enterprising young person. Set up a local net and sell it to the community.

It has been done before in small communities - much like the one I live in. No government money - just hard work and some selling.

Borg

A lot of these communities don't have the infrastructure or amount of people to make this worthwhile. many of the communities are indeed connected to each other by boat or small plane so maintenance would be a real costly affair. And the startup costs in these areas are much higher than urban areas, therefore for the enterprising young person to make any money, they would have to charge a fortune to their customers.

Ah yes - perhaps there is some truth to this. So the circle goes round and round.

In the end they will do something about it if there is a will.

Government handouts to the east are numerous enough.

I personally set up a system here at the house - fairly independent and sat capable for less than 6K - I could service the entire neighbourhood if I so desired.

50 subscribers at 20 bucks a month and the locals would pay for it fairly quickly - make it a co-op program if necessary.

I am tired of the whining.

Want it that badly? Then do something about it.

Too many excuses and not enough action.

Borg