Anger in Holland over 'apartheid' Islamic hospital

[scribblet]

Bear in mind that they have declared that only Arab medications (?) will be used, and no Israeli products will be allowed. Also some doctors will not prescribe Jewish medications (how can that be determined).

Could this mean that patients will die in that hospital, of an illness which could be cured, but won't be because a Jew invented or developed the cure or medical procedure. Should be interesting to see how that works and what happens if they start losing a lot of patients.

Could all of this, especially if the concept of apartheid type hospitals spreads, cause a world wide health problem?

http://www.fd.nl/ShowRedactieNieuws.asp?Co...N%7C1&Docum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../wmuslims05.xml

Anger in Holland over 'apartheid' Islamic hospital

By David Rennie in Brussels

(Filed: 05/10/2006)

Plans for a Muslim-only hospital in Holland have sparked a heated debate over its separate all-male and all-female wings, halal food and roster of duty imams.

A populist Right-wing party described the plan for the clinic in south Rotterdam as "a step backwards to the Middle Ages".

There will be segregation between the sexes, with male patients treated by an exclusively male nursing and medical staff and similar arrangements for females.

Holland's once proud multi-cultural model, which promoted tolerance of a rapidly growing immigrant population, has been sharply questioned in recent years, especially after the murder of the film-maker Theo van Gogh by an Islamic radical.

The latest row concerns plans for a private hospital aimed at members of Holland's one million Muslims.....

http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...540477,00.html

"A small group of Muslim clerics is spreading the myth that the vaccine is part of a conspiracy to sterilize Muslims -- and as a result, helping to spread a disease many thought was conquered

It's hard to imagine that anyone could object to a campaign to eliminate polio #8212; a disease that maims, paralyzes, and even kills its victims, who are mostly children. Yet, in one of the more bizarre confrontations between Islamic fundamentalists and the modern world, a tiny group of clerics in India is doing just that #8212; and giving new life to a deadly disease."

[sharkman]

Good grief, how can Holland let this happen? But this is what's coming in European nations as Muslims flex their influence that a large minority willing to riot can have.

The article referencing attacks on the French police is just further proof.

[kimmy]

"A small group of Muslim clerics is spreading the myth that the vaccine is part of a conspiracy to sterilize Muslims -- and as a result, helping to spread a disease many thought was conquered

It's hard to imagine that anyone could object to a campaign to eliminate polio #8212; a disease that maims, paralyzes, and even kills its victims, who are mostly children. Yet, in one of the more bizarre confrontations between Islamic fundamentalists and the modern world, a tiny group of clerics in India is doing just that #8212; and giving new life to a deadly disease."

That Jonas Salk... he was a Jew.

-k

[bradco]

I have no problem with the hospital if it meets a few requirements:

-Its fully private. No public dollars to a hospital that wont treat everyone.

-Muslims have the right to not use the hospital.

-The hospital proves that it is effective (not all their patients croak)

-It doesnt allow the spread of disease. Acts in a medically professional manner.

If it meets these requirements then whats the issue?

[scribblet]

"A small group of Muslim clerics is spreading the myth that the vaccine is part of a conspiracy to sterilize Muslims -- and as a result, helping to spread a disease many thought was conquered

It's hard to imagine that anyone could object to a campaign to eliminate polio #8212; a disease that maims, paralyzes, and even kills its victims, who are mostly children. Yet, in one of the more bizarre confrontations between Islamic fundamentalists and the modern world, a tiny group of clerics in India is doing just that #8212; and giving new life to a deadly disease."

That Jonas Salk... he was a Jew.

-k

Hmm, wonder what other cures there are that won't be used. I would be very concerned if I were in the Dutch medical profession, but as the other poster said, hopefully they will meet medical standards.

[sharkman]

This is prejudice and racism pure and simple. Certain European nations like this one are going to have more and more influence foisted upon them by the minority Muslims until the host nation will no longer be recognized.

[betsy]

There goes multi-culturalism, eh?

Just shows it is a nightmare!

And speaking of nightmares...do you get the feeling, with the persistent attitude of the lefties inspite of all these things erupting all around us....it's like being in the Twilight Zone?

[bradco]

This is prejudice and racism pure and simple. Certain European nations like this one are going to have more and more influence foisted upon them by the minority Muslims until the host nation will no longer be recognized.

Yet if it was a white Christian hospital I bet there would be a lot of people on this forum that would say thats ok and anyone saying it wasnt was not respecting religious freedoms.

It is a private religious institution. Who cares. Use the regular hospital system already in place. Im anti-religious and I have no problem with religous people having their own hospitals if they choose as long as I dont have to use it or have my tax money pay for it and I can still get healthcare elsewhere. It amazes me how people scream and cry about religous freedoms for Chritians on this forum ( ie on gay marriage) but when it comes to religious freedoms for Islamic people its a different story. Thats "prejudice and racism pure and simple".

[betsy]

This is prejudice and racism pure and simple. Certain European nations like this one are going to have more and more influence foisted upon them by the minority Muslims until the host nation will no longer be recognized.

Yet if it was a white Christian hospital I bet there would be a lot of people on this forum that would say thats ok and anyone saying it wasnt was not respecting religious freedoms.

It is a private religious institution. Who cares. Use the regular hospital system already in place. Im anti-religious and I have no problem with religous people having their own hospitals if they choose as long as I dont have to use it or have my tax money pay for it and I can still get healthcare elsewhere. It amazes me how people scream and cry about religous freedoms for Chritians on this forum ( ie on gay marriage) but when it comes to religious freedoms for Islamic people its a different story. Thats "prejudice and racism pure and simple".

Well, if it is true that the religious group will build and fund it fully with their own money...I guess I'll have to agree with you that I have no problem with that either.

I have a big problem if a religious group demands the government to build a hospital solely for its own use and practice of its belief....on the grounds of religious freedom.

[betsy]

"A small group of Muslim clerics is spreading the myth that the vaccine is part of a conspiracy to sterilize Muslims -- and as a result, helping to spread a disease many thought was conquered

It's hard to imagine that anyone could object to a campaign to eliminate polio #8212; a disease that maims, paralyzes, and even kills its victims, who are mostly children. Yet, in one of the more bizarre confrontations between Islamic fundamentalists and the modern world, a tiny group of clerics in India is doing just that #8212; and giving new life to a deadly disease."

When I first saw those tv ads asking for donations about Leprosy, Child poverty on tv (showing children from Africa and other third world countries)...I casually commented how sad it is to have all these sickness and poverty all over the world. I asked how can we possibly help all....it is impossible.

A friend who was visiting at the moment smirked as she drank coffee.

She said, "if I help, I'd make sure it is not to some kid who will be putting on bombs around his waist a few years from now to blow up and maim others."

That is how some people are now beginning to think.

[betsy]

It amazes me how people scream and cry about religous freedoms for Chritians on this forum ( ie on gay marriage) but when it comes to religious freedoms for Islamic people its a different story. Thats "prejudice and racism pure and simple".

So I'd very much want to hear what you think of this, Bradco:

I think you already approve of Muslims to be able to exercise the freedom to kill all Jews. Apparently you have no problems at all with that. But how about ...one of your pet minority group? The gays?

The Muslim religion does not tolerate gay marriages either. Actually they don't tolerate gays at all.

The extremists and fundamentalist wants to behead all gays. So you're saying they should be given that freedom to express their religious belief? It's okay for Muslims to behead gays too?

Because to not to agree with that would be nothing more than "prejudice" against the Muslim faith....a racism, pure and simple?

I'm waiting for your answer...since you're so aggressive and prolific with your accusations towards us who disagree with your thinking....which I truly find confusing, to say the least. So correct me if I'm wrong. Explain yourself so I may understand your rationale. If you're going to make accusations...at least offer some explanations as to why.

[Argus]

This is prejudice and racism pure and simple. Certain European nations like this one are going to have more and more influence foisted upon them by the minority Muslims until the host nation will no longer be recognized.

Yet if it was a white Christian hospital I bet there would be a lot of people on this forum that would say thats ok and anyone saying it wasnt was not respecting religious freedoms.

Are there ANY White Christian hospitals which cater specifically to White Christians as part of their marketing and business policy? Will other people be made comfortable at this Muslim hospital, or will they be discouraged or even forbidden from being treated there?

It is a private religious institution. Who cares. Use the regular hospital system already in place.

There are no private hospitals in the Netherlands except, perhaps, for the elite wealthy. Public health care dollars pay for the treatment of almost all regular citizens. And in the case of Muslims, most of whom are poor, it will certainly be the public funding their treatment - treatment which will be inadequate in many cases due to their racist refusal to use "jewish" medicines.

As for your "who cares, go somewhere else" argument, I can't help wondering if you'd feel the same if Pat Robertson opened a hospital to treat White Christians only, promising there would be no "jewish" medicines used.

For that matter, how about if I open a bar for Whites only. Hey, you can just go to the next one, right?

It amazes me how people scream and cry about religous freedoms for Chritians on this forum ( ie on gay marriage) but when it comes to religious freedoms for Islamic people its a different story. Thats "prejudice and racism pure and simple".

And it amazes me how politically correct people who snear and ridicule and mock and condemn Christians for not abandoning every single aspect of their faith which collides with some multicutural, sexual lifetyle issue sweepingly endorse racist, sexist, misogynistic and bigoted behaviour from "brown" people.

[bradco]

It amazes me how people scream and cry about religous freedoms for Chritians on this forum ( ie on gay marriage) but when it comes to religious freedoms for Islamic people its a different story. Thats "prejudice and racism pure and simple".

So I'd very much want to hear what you think of this, Bradco:

I think you already approve of Muslims to be able to exercise the freedom to kill all Jews. Apparently you have no problems at all with that. But how about ...one of your pet minority group? The gays?

The Muslim religion does not tolerate gay marriages either. Actually they don't tolerate gays at all.

The extremists and fundamentalist wants to behead all gays. So you're saying they should be given that freedom to express their religious belief? It's okay for Muslims to behead gays too?

Because to not to agree with that would be nothing more than "prejudice" against the Muslim faith....a racism, pure and simple?

I'm waiting for your answer...since you're so aggressive and prolific with your accusations towards us who disagree with your thinking....which I truly find confusing, to say the least. So correct me if I'm wrong. Explain yourself so I may understand your rationale. If you're going to make accusations...at least offer some explanations as to why.

When have I approved of any religious freedom to kill all Jews? I am saying religious freedom to set up a Private (not publicly funded) hospital doesnt seem to be a problem. Religous freedoms end when they are being used to take away freedoms of others. Freedom of life is probably the most important so I would never approve of religous freedoms to kill people and any suggestion I do is ridiculous. Having their own PRIVATE hospital isnt restricting another groups freedom.

Again on gays. Beheading them is definetly taking away freedoms from them. So no this isnt okay. When I said "when it comes to religious freedoms for Islamic people" I did not mean it to be taken as any and all religous freedoms should be allowed. In this threads context a private religious hospital is a freedom that is okay. I said nothing about allowing any and all freedom based on their religous beliefs. All freedoms, as I have argued in places on this forum, should be subjected to the harm principle. This includes religous freedoms for people of the Islamic faith. Im sorry I felt this should be implied and I didnt make it overly clear to you.

I dont feel I am prejudicing against a faith when I say they cant behead other people. In a world where everyone has different beliefs I think we must balance freedoms. My argument against beheading isnt against muslim freedoms but in favour of freedoms for another group. I realize that there is still conflict between the freedoms but Im not purposely prejudicing a group, Im defending another groups freedom.

My accusation against Christians is that they will always defend their religous freedoms but never admit anyone elses freedoms. In this case the freedom to have a private hospital is a reasonable freedom. I have no problem if people, including Christians, wont defend unreasonable freedoms such as killing jews but it is all too often that they refuse even reasonable freedoms. And I believe this is a problem with more religions than just Chritianity and is one of the reasons why I am anti-religion. Religous beliefs dont allow for, or at least people interpret them as not allowing for, reasonable compromise of conflicts of freedom. It is my personal opinion that rational arguments should be used not religous ones.

[bradco]

"And it amazes me how politically correct people who snear and ridicule and mock and condemn Christians for not abandoning every single aspect of their faith which collides with some multicutural, sexual lifetyle issue sweepingly endorse racist, sexist, misogynistic and bigoted behaviour from "brown" people."

Explain to me how I ever endorsed racist, sexist, misogynistic and bigoted behaviour from muslim people.

"As for your "who cares, go somewhere else" argument, I can't help wondering if you'd feel the same if Pat Robertson opened a hospital to treat White Christians only, promising there would be no "jewish" medicines used."

Wouldnt bother me. If its a religous institution they can do as they please and Ill keep using public hospitals and hospitals that I am comfortable with.

"For that matter, how about if I open a bar for Whites only. Hey, you can just go to the next one, right?"

For me there is a distinction between hositals and regular businesses and you can probably rightfully argue that there may be no distinction. If you want to start up a bar as a club that would be fine but when you take out a business license for a bar you are agreeing to certain legal obligations. I wouldnt know if business licenses for private hospitals are required, if they are different then any regular license etc. In a public healthcare system I would assume that there is nothing saying that you need a license and no legal requirements then are present. If legal requirements of opening a hospital are legislated then I guess you win. But again, I still see medical care maybe as something people may have religous beliefs regarding. These beliefs seem more legitmate to me than some sort of argument about who your beliefs allow you to drink with.

For me it really comes down to what I consider reasonable. I dont think it is all that offensive or unreasonable to have a private hospital that practises medicine on religous basis as long as they meet certain requirements that I listed above. Maybe I might have to add that they cant exclude people but honestly if your Jewish or Christian or aethiest are you going to go to an Islamic hospital?

[betsy]

It amazes me how people scream and cry about religous freedoms for Chritians on this forum ( ie on gay marriage) but when it comes to religious freedoms for Islamic people its a different story. Thats "prejudice and racism pure and simple".

When have I approved of any religious freedom to kill all Jews? I am saying religious freedom to set up a Private (not publicly funded) hospital doesnt seem to be a problem. Religous freedoms end when they are being used to take away freedoms of others. Freedom of life is probably the most important so I would never approve of religous freedoms to kill people and any suggestion I do is ridiculous. Having their own PRIVATE hospital isnt restricting another groups freedom.

Again on gays. Beheading them is definetly taking away freedoms from them. So no this isnt okay. When I said "when it comes to religious freedoms for Islamic people" I did not mean it to be taken as any and all religous freedoms should be allowed. In this threads context a private religious hospital is a freedom that is okay. I said nothing about allowing any and all freedom based on their religous beliefs. All freedoms, as I have argued in places on this forum, should be subjected to the harm principle. This includes religous freedoms for people of the Islamic faith. Im sorry I felt this should be implied and I didnt make it overly clear to you.

I dont feel I am prejudicing against a faith when I say they cant behead other people. In a world where everyone has different beliefs I think we must balance freedoms. My argument against beheading isnt against muslim freedoms but in favour of freedoms for another group. I realize that there is still conflict between the freedoms but Im not purposely prejudicing a group, Im defending another groups freedom.

My accusation against Christians is that they will always defend their religous freedoms but never admit anyone elses freedoms. In this case the freedom to have a private hospital is a reasonable freedom. I have no problem if people, including Christians, wont defend unreasonable freedoms such as killing jews but it is all too often that they refuse even reasonable freedoms. And I believe this is a problem with more religions than just Chritianity and is one of the reasons why I am anti-religion. Religous beliefs dont allow for, or at least people interpret them as not allowing for, reasonable compromise of conflicts of freedom. It is my personal opinion that rational arguments should be used not religous ones.

Well your statement was misleading since you've stated "freedoms" in the plural sense (for both Christians and Islam), and giving gay marriage as an example on top of that. Gay marriage has nothing to do with the said hospital at all, I take it?

[JerrySeinfeld]

Bear in mind that they have declared that only Arab medications (?) will be used, and no Israeli products will be allowed. Also some doctors will not prescribe Jewish medications (how can that be determined).

Could this mean that patients will die in that hospital, of an illness which could be cured, but won't be because a Jew invented or developed the cure or medical procedure. Should be interesting to see how that works and what happens if they start losing a lot of patients.

Could all of this, especially if the concept of apartheid type hospitals spreads, cause a world wide health problem?

http://www.fd.nl/ShowRedactieNieuws.asp?Co...N%7C1&Docum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../wmuslims05.xml

Anger in Holland over 'apartheid' Islamic hospital

By David Rennie in Brussels

(Filed: 05/10/2006)

Plans for a Muslim-only hospital in Holland have sparked a heated debate over its separate all-male and all-female wings, halal food and roster of duty imams.

A populist Right-wing party described the plan for the clinic in south Rotterdam as "a step backwards to the Middle Ages".

There will be segregation between the sexes, with male patients treated by an exclusively male nursing and medical staff and similar arrangements for females.

Holland's once proud multi-cultural model, which promoted tolerance of a rapidly growing immigrant population, has been sharply questioned in recent years, especially after the murder of the film-maker Theo van Gogh by an Islamic radical.

The latest row concerns plans for a private hospital aimed at members of Holland's one million Muslims.....

http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...540477,00.html

"A small group of Muslim clerics is spreading the myth that the vaccine is part of a conspiracy to sterilize Muslims -- and as a result, helping to spread a disease many thought was conquered

It's hard to imagine that anyone could object to a campaign to eliminate polio #8212; a disease that maims, paralyzes, and even kills its victims, who are mostly children. Yet, in one of the more bizarre confrontations between Islamic fundamentalists and the modern world, a tiny group of clerics in India is doing just that #8212; and giving new life to a deadly disease."

This is what I have been writing about for years. Even 12 months ago everyone on here accused me of being alarmist and a quack.

Now we see more and more everyday that this is a reality in our world that we must confront of face a very different future.

[betsy]

Could this mean that patients will die in that hospital, of an illness which could be cured, but won't be because a Jew invented or developed the cure or medical procedure. Should be interesting to see how that works and what happens if they start losing a lot of patients.

It will be a problem if the whole Muslim population are intimidated and forced to use such hospital. We already know that women have no say whatsoever in decision makings.

I wonder what the lefties have to say about that scenario.

[betsy]

Explain to me how I ever endorsed racist, sexist, misogynistic and bigoted behaviour from muslim people.

Well I think I might have spoken too soon...because come to think of it, the highly likely implications will be condoning an oppressive scenario.

Have you considered the scenario that the whole Muslim population will be intimidated and forced by the radicals/extremists to use that kind of hospital?

Have you thought about the women, at least? We know how women are treated in Muslim countries.

You bet they'll have no say at all about whether they wish to get treated in a quality facility or this hospital from the dark ages. What about children?

They may be living right smack in the middle of a civilized democratic country....but actually, it's like they're being thrown back to the pit. A poor woman dying and in pain, being denied the relief and cure....yet only beyond the gates of that hospital lies her hope to live. That's cruel!

I mean it seems like a sadist's fantasy.

So now, right in the backyard of a democratic society, a situation like this is just fine and dandy with you?

[bradco]

Explain to me how I ever endorsed racist, sexist, misogynistic and bigoted behaviour from muslim people.

Well I think I might have spoken too soon...because come to think of it, the highly likely implications will be condoning an oppressive scenario.

Have you considered the scenario that the whole Muslim population will be intimidated and forced by the radicals/extremists to use that kind of hospital?

Have you thought about the women, at least? We know how women are treated in Muslim countries.

You bet they'll have no say at all about whether they wish to get treated in a quality facility or this hospital from the dark ages. What about children?

They may be living right smack in the middle of a civilized democratic country....but actually, it's like they're being thrown back to the pit. A poor woman dying and in pain, being denied the relief and cure....yet only beyond the gates of that hospital lies her hope to live. That's cruel!

I mean it seems like a sadist's fantasy.

So now, right in the backyard of a democratic society, a situation like this is just fine and dandy with you?

I can only assume from this comment that you have absolutly no contact with Muslim people in Canada. I do work for many Muslim families and the women are not oppressed. In fact in most cases the women made a lot of the decisions and seemed to exercise the same power over their husbands that white women do. Of course Im not suggesting that in some Islamic countries women arent oppressed, they clearly are. But most of these countries dont have freedoms in general so we wouldnt even be having this debate. We are discussing this in a western democracy context and thats important to remember. All Muslim people I have ever met here in Canada are here because they like this country and they like it because of the freedoms we have here. I cant speak for the Netherlands but I would say in Canada there would be amost no worries of "extremists" forcing all Muslims to use these hospitals against there will. I get this from actually knowing Muslims and talking to them. I get the impression that a lot of scared right wingers in this forum have never met any Muslims and would refuse to associate with anyone who is Muslim.

"So now, right in the backyard of a democratic society, a situation like this is just fine and dandy with you?"

-do you mean the situation of Muslims being forced to use these hospitals? A situation that has NOT happened and is very unlikely to happen. If it were to happen I wouldnt consider it fine and dandy but it has not happened.

[betsy]

I can only assume from this comment that you have absolutly no contact with Muslim people in Canada. I do work for many Muslim families and the women are not oppressed.

Okay, let's forget about the Muslims for a while.

Are you saying there are no battered women among Canadians? No women are oppressed by their partners or spouses? I heard that even among gay/lesbian couples...there is spousal oppression.

I am surrounded by Canadians. I know a lot of Canadians. And I have NOT WITNESSED...NOT EVEN heard...or have any reasons to suspect any of my friends...including acquaintances that they are being battered or abused at home.

BUT I hear the Women complaining that there are spousal abuses. Lots in fact.

Are you saying Womens' Right Movement is not exactly telling the truth? Just making it all up...for government funding? That they're lying?

[M.Dancer]

Okay, let's forget about the Muslims for a while.

Are you saying there are no battered women among Canadians? No women are oppressed by their partners or spouses? I heard that even among gay/lesbian couples...there is spousal oppression.

I am surrounded by Canadians. I know a lot of Canadians. And I have NOT WITNESSED...NOT EVEN heard...or have any reasons to suspect any of my friends...including acquaintances that they are being battered or abused at home.

BUT I hear the Women complaining that there are spousal abuses. Lots in fact.

Are you saying Womens' Right Movement is not exactly telling the truth? Just making it all up...for government funding? That they're lying?

Well, I'm surrounded by Canadians too...I have witnessed (although more than 30 years ago) and I have heard and I do know of 2 woman abused by the same man....and two others, my neighbours, one which resulted in a 3AM emergency response by paramedics, fire and police.

Now all of these women are WASPs with the exception of one, who is Israeli.

The one thing you can say about spousal abuse, it doesn't discriminate.

[betsy]

We are discussing this in a western democracy context and thats important to remember.

Yes. But we still have that kind of problem regarding women, do we...right here in Canada.

Being right in a democratic society...where women have the freedom to protests...and we have a society sympathetic to the plight of women...and still, we have not eliminated the problem.

So what more with a group whose very low opinion and view of women is well-documented? Whose religion believes that if a woman is raped...she should be stoned to death?

You think then that they should be able and allowed...in the name of freedom of religion....to bring in their sharia law to democratic countries?

[betsy]

Okay, let's forget about the Muslims for a while.

Are you saying there are no battered women among Canadians? No women are oppressed by their partners or spouses? I heard that even among gay/lesbian couples...there is spousal oppression.

I am surrounded by Canadians. I know a lot of Canadians. And I have NOT WITNESSED...NOT EVEN heard...or have any reasons to suspect any of my friends...including acquaintances that they are being battered or abused at home.

BUT I hear the Women complaining that there are spousal abuses. Lots in fact.

Are you saying Womens' Right Movement is not exactly telling the truth? Just making it all up...for government funding? That they're lying?

Well, I'm surrounded by Canadians too...I have witnessed (although more than 30 years ago) and I have heard and I do know of 2 woman abused by the same man....and two others, my neighbours, one which resulted in a 3AM emergency response by paramedics, fire and police.

Now all of these women are WASPs with the exception of one, who is Israeli.

The one thing you can say about spousal abuse, it doesn't discriminate.

Exactly.

That's why I am wondering how Brad can confidently say that just because he works for Muslims or had been around Muslims in Canada...that that kind of abuse is not happening to some hapless Muslim women in Canada?

[M.Dancer]

Exactly.

That's why I am wondering how Brad can confidently say that just because he works for Muslims or had been around Muslims in Canada...that that kind of abuse is not happening to some hapless Muslim women in Canada?

My take was that the abuse is not above what is to be expected as the "norm"......

Of course Im not suggesting that in some Islamic countries women arent oppressed, they clearly are

I have known a couple of arranged marriages and the dynamic of the relationship didn't strike me as any different than a western love match. So that being said I don't think muslim marriages are intrinsically more abusive than western ones...and certainly as he says, not amongst the educated upper classes.

[bradco]

Okay, let's forget about the Muslims for a while.

Are you saying there are no battered women among Canadians? No women are oppressed by their partners or spouses? I heard that even among gay/lesbian couples...there is spousal oppression.

I am surrounded by Canadians. I know a lot of Canadians. And I have NOT WITNESSED...NOT EVEN heard...or have any reasons to suspect any of my friends...including acquaintances that they are being battered or abused at home.

BUT I hear the Women complaining that there are spousal abuses. Lots in fact.

Are you saying Womens' Right Movement is not exactly telling the truth? Just making it all up...for government funding? That they're lying?

Well, I'm surrounded by Canadians too...I have witnessed (although more than 30 years ago) and I have heard and I do know of 2 woman abused by the same man....and two others, my neighbours, one which resulted in a 3AM emergency response by paramedics, fire and police.

Now all of these women are WASPs with the exception of one, who is Israeli.

The one thing you can say about spousal abuse, it doesn't discriminate.

Exactly.

That's why I am wondering how Brad can confidently say that just because he works for Muslims or had been around Muslims in Canada...that that kind of abuse is not happening to some hapless Muslim women in Canada?

Okay thats not what you argued though. Of course some woman are opressed, so are some children and Im sure theres men being oppressed as well. Im arguing that it is no different in the Muslim community and will not result in any more forcing to use a hospital. Given your logic Id be concerned about Muslim woman who are oppressed now not receiving any medical attention at all. Are you concerned about this situation? A situation that their oppressors would only wish them to have treatment at a "Muslim hospital" so now they go untreated.

your comment was, and I quote, "Have you considered the scenario that the whole Muslim population will be intimidated and forced by the radicals/extremists to use that kind of hospital?" I said that is not going to happen because the vast majority of muslims in a western democracy, where the hospital would be located, are not being opressed. Realizing how ridiculous your statement was you are now trying to backpeddle and accuse me of not realizing there is oppression. Of course there is oppression, that doesnt even need to be debated. Theres oppression in all communites. As Dancer put it, "it doesnt discriminate". However, there is defintely not oppression on a level that would result in "the whole Muslim population" being forced to use these hospitals. To backup your initial statements you would need to prove this. I suggest you do so or admit you were wrong instead of trying to backpeddle and accuse me of something I never said and is irrelevant to your argument anyways.