Overpass Collapse in Laval, Quebec

[guyser]

But the question is, in the final analysis, will the federal government and the tax payers of Canada be left holding the bag or will Quebec accept its responsibility, stop crying the blues and forge ahead with the necessary repairs.

The question is moot.

Like every other province it will be a combo of Fed and Prov. Works out to about $21 a person across Canada, except Ont, which gets $15 per person.

[Leafless]

But the question is, in the final analysis, will the federal government and the tax payers of Canada be left holding the bag or will Quebec accept its responsibility, stop crying the blues and forge ahead with the necessary repairs.

The question is moot.

Like every other province it will be a combo of Fed and Prov. Works out to about $21 a person across Canada, except Ont, which gets $15 per person.

What funding are you talking about? How about citing your source?

Quebec it appears, is looking for special emergency assistance or they would not be crying the blues over what every other province considers normal ongoing maintenance, relating to structural repairs to bridges, overpasses and ramps.

[guyser]

What funding are you talking about? How about citing your source?

Sorry, this one .........http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/English/news/speeches/s20050308.htm

Quebec it appears, is looking for special emergency assistance or they would not be crying the blues over what every other province considers normal ongoing maintenance, relating to structural repairs to bridges, overpasses and ramps.

You mean like Ont, Man, Sask,Alta, BC, NS,NB,PEI,NFLD Lab, NU and NWT do? Lets key on and isolate Quebec, it makes for a dramatic post, not true of course but nonetheless dramatic.

Edited July 24, 2007 by guyser

[Leafless]

Sorry, this one .........http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/English/news/speeches/s20050308.htm

Your link doesn't work.

You mean like Ont, Man, Sask,Alta, BC, NS,NB,PEI,NFLD Lab, NU and NWT do? Lets key on and isolate Quebec, it makes for a dramatic post, not true of course but nonetheless dramatic.

No. I mean a province ignoring it's infrastructure maintenance relating to bridges, overpasses and ramps and then pleading ignorance to that fact and expecting federal help as a result, is nothing more than a con game.

If all provinces behaved in this haphazard manner Canada would be bankrupt in a very short period of time.

In your book it seems there are no rewards for provinces who quietly and responsibly carry out their scheduled maintenance with no fanfare.

[guyser]

No. I mean a province ignoring it's infrastructure maintenance relating to bridges, overpasses and ramps and then pleading ignorance to that fact and expecting federal help as a result, is nothing more than a con game.

If all provinces behaved in this haphazard manner Canada would be bankrupt in a very short period of time.

Sorry, but they do. I will let the experts have a say....

"Meanwhile, David Lau, who teaches civil engineering at Carleton University in Ottawa, told CP that regular infrastructure maintenance is a problem across the country.

Lau said the engineering community has long warned of an "infrastructure deficit," when projects ranging from water sewage systems to bridges are constructed but not properly maintained because of a lack of resources or planning.

"In general, our bridges are in poor shape," said Lau, who emphasized that he could not speculate on the cause of the collapse.

"Many of these (bridges) were built quite some years ago, and over the years, because of a lack of resources, I think we are going to see the effect in the delay of a lot of this maintenance."

But the head of a leading bridge-engineering firm says detecting a hidden defect in a concrete bridge is often a difficult task.

"Inspection of concrete bridges like this one is difficult. You have to realize you're trying to detect 0.001 per cent of the population. You have a very large population of concrete bridges and 99.999 per cent are fine. It's very difficult to create an inspection regime that picks out that tiny defect on one bridge," Peter Taylor, a principal at North Vancouver-based Buckland & Taylor Ltd. told The Globe and Mail."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...61002/20061002/

Seems a problem for all provinces , not just Quebec. But dont let that sway you.

In your book it seems there are no rewards for provinces who quietly and responsibly carry out their scheduled maintenance with no fanfare.

Of course there is, dont be silly. The reward is , as is printed above, 99.9% of all bridges being safe.

The problem is no one does, including all the other nine provinces and our territories. But it is Quebec, and that is your little whipping boy.

Edited July 24, 2007 by guyser

[jdobbin]

I never responded to this thread when it first came up. I know that when it happened, it made a lot of provinces examine their own overpasses and bridges. In Manitoba, they closed two overpasses for immediate repairs which I was grateful for. Long neglected infrastructure was suddenly at the forefront of concern. Quebec's tragedy probably saved other provinces from going through the same thing.

It would seem that even further examination needs to be done as to what is acceptable standards after what happened in Minneapolis this week.

I just arrived home late this afternoon from Minnesota and I'm still stunned and how fast and complete the destruction was of Interstate 35W was. At this point, no one can be sure what happened to the 40 year old bridge linking the Twin Cities other than it was a catastrophic failure.

The one thing that inspired was the effort by emergency workers and citizens alike to save those in the wreckage and water. Alas, all I could do was to go down to the blood donor clinic that was set-up but it was something I would not have normally done on vacation. My wife, an ICU specialist, wanted to go right down to the site and help but the situation quickly became more or less a recovery operation.

We have debated infrastructure and its maintenance numerous times in these forums. Some day it should all be privatized, some say it needs more public investment. Some have said it requires much better inspection.

Time is ticking on Canada's infrastructure. I don't think we can afford a long debate on how it should be done. It just has to be done for the safety of all.

[bush_cheney2004]

I just arrived home late this afternoon from Minnesota and I'm still stunned and how fast and complete the destruction was of Interstate 35W was. At this point, no one can be sure what happened to the 40 year old bridge linking the Twin Cities other than it was a catastrophic failure.

OK...but we already know what didn't happen: primary structural maintenance or replacement of the state's most heavily traveled bridge (crossing the Mississippi in MInneapolis....it doesn't link with St. Paul.)

The bridge has been on an engineering death watch since 1990, was known to be structurally deficient (grade 4 out of 9...0 = collapsed bridge).

Interstate 35W is now running smoothly with a makeshift detour.

[jdobbin]

OK...but we already know what didn't happen: primary structural maintenance or replacement of the state's most heavily traveled bridge (crossing the Mississippi in MInneapolis....it doesn't link with St. Paul.)

The bridge has been on an engineering death watch since 1990, was known to be structurally deficient (grade 4 out of 9...0 = collapsed bridge).

Interstate 35W is now running smoothly with a makeshift detour.

There are literally thousands of bridges listed as structurally deficient. They are considered candidates for replacement, not generally in need of immediate closure because they are about to collapse.

By linking the city, I should have said north-south over the river and later reconnecting with 35E that goes through St. Paul.

As far as a smooth transition for traffic, I guess that will be up to long term Minnesota residents to judge.

It remains a tragic event for Minnesotans. I hope that the recovery of the missing goes safely. It doesn't look like it is an easy thing to do in the least.

[bush_cheney2004]

There are literally thousands of bridges listed as structurally deficient. They are considered candidates for replacement, not generally in need of immediate closure because they are about to collapse.

By linking the city, I should have said north-south over the river and later reconnecting with 35E that goes through St. Paul.

As far as a smooth transition for traffic, I guess that will be up to long term Minnesota residents to judge.

It remains a tragic event for Minnesotans. I hope that the recovery of the missing goes safely. It doesn't look like it is an easy thing to do in the least.

Correct....Interstate 35 splits in Burnsville to 35W and 35E for Minneapolis and St. Paul respectively. I was southbound on 35W about 4 miles from the bridge when it collapsed, but I only cross that bridge for Twins games maybe twice a year.

As I pointed out in another thread, Minnesota decided to blow $700,000,000 on a gold plated light rail line instead of fixing old, boring, and fractured bridges. The train is very nice (cars from Bombardier?) and it passes very near the now fallen bridge. How ironic.

It's a tragedy allright, a tragedy for the state transportation department.

[jdobbin]

Correct....Interstate 35 splits in Burnsville to 35W and 35E for Minneapolis and St. Paul respectively. I was southbound on 35W about 4 miles from the bridge when it collapsed, but I only cross that bridge for Twins games maybe twice a year.

As I pointed out in another thread, Minnesota decided to blow $700,000,000 on a gold plated light rail line instead of fixing old, boring, and fractured bridges. The train is very nice (cars from Bombardier?) and it passes very near the now fallen bridge. How ironic.

It's a tragedy allright, a tragedy for the state transportation department.

I don't know all the details about the train or money that might have been diverted away from re-building bridges and/or overpasses. If that is the case, it will obviously be the focus of intense scrutiny by many.

I know in Canada some engineers have said there is a build it and forget about it mentality. I think it emphasizes the important of inspection, maintenance and lifespan of structures. I'm not an engineer but I will be very interested in hearing what the engineering report on some of these collapses reveals.

There many indeed be some finger pointing. I hope that doesn't dominate the question of solutions.

[capricorn]

The safety of bridges, overpasses and highways should be core services provided by our governments, sparing no expense. Unfortunately, governments only see the light when tragedies happen. What the heck are we paying taxes for? Priorities are misaligned but hey, we're complicit in not demanding what we pay for.

I'm heartbroken for all the victims of these avoidable catastrophies.

[geoffrey]

Perhaps an engineer can help me out with this one... if we have any of those unfortunate souls on this board.

How complex is it to determine the integrity of a bridge? Is it expensive? How is this done (core samples of the concrete, what?)?

Then... how do you fix a crumbling bridge? Pour a new layer of cement on it? Or is it just better to build a new one?

--

I think we did major bridge work to the Centre street and 10th street bridges in Calgary in the last few years (remember, they had to remove the lions). These are relatively small bridges, over the Bow River. I have no idea what the cost was, but I'd be interested.

Luckily, I live in a city with very few bridges. We do, however, have alot of overpasses. Are these subject to the same stresses? What is the lifespan of one of these? Are they always able to refurbish them or are there times when replacement is neccessary?

[sharkman]

We have debated infrastructure and its maintenance numerous times in these forums. Some day it should all be privatized, some say it needs more public investment. Some have said it requires much better inspection.

Time is ticking on Canada's infrastructure. I don't think we can afford a long debate on how it should be done. It just has to be done for the safety of all.

I agree with you, but it will become a war of sorts before and during any bridge and overpass upgrade, and here's why: Environmentalists will view this as politicians and corporations trying to use this issue to increase capacity on our transportation grid. They will not stand for it, and in canada, where protesters willfully excercising civil disobedience get a handshake from our justice system, said environmentalists will be chaining themselves to machinery, bridges, and anything they can.

As many know, environmentalists do not want one inch of pavement added to any roadway in Canada. They want the worsening traffic situation to force people out of their global warming cars and into mass transit. Any such thing that is seen to put off this will be met with force. In the lower mainland of B.C., there is a plan to twin the Port Mann Bridge, thus doubling it's capacity, something that has been needed for about 15 years. There has been much sabre rattling over the very thought of it, and it will be a litmus test as to the willingness of the environmentally PC crowd.

I know this is beyond merely making present road infastructure safe, but it will be seen as the same thing by the tree huggers.

Edited August 4, 2007 by sharkman

[guyser]

Perhaps an engineer can help me out with this one... if we have any of those unfortunate souls on this board.

How complex is it to determine the integrity of a bridge? Is it expensive? How is this done (core samples of the concrete, what?)?

Then... how do you fix a crumbling bridge? Pour a new layer of cement on it? Or is it just better to build a new one?

Core samples are taken of everything you can imagine. The dirt when compacted, the cement is sent for testing , specs are to be taken as "gospel" by the contractors, inspections occur on every part , every piece of assemblage , every component is tested to within an inch of its life etc etc.

Ongoing inspections occur daily. Very very few bridges ever get shut down because we have excellent engineers in this country and inspections are routine and frequent.

To fix a bridge means one has to know what has failed or forseeably will fail. Is the rebar to close to the surface causing rust stains to show through...?....is the steel the right spec and so on. Was the right cement used for the bridge and for the locale ?

Engineers in this country are some of the best in the world. Look at Lavalin Inc, absolutely huge , profitable and respected. Some of the projects they do worldwide would surprise you.

Early to speculate, but I will go out on a limb and say heat and metal caused the ultimate collapse in Minny.