The Conservative Way

[betsy]

There's been speculations that Mulroney may have been advicing the current government how to go about environmental issues. That it could be what they (MDuffy pundits) call the Green Plan 2.

Rona Ambrose emerged yesterday on a one-on-one interview at MDuffy and revealed that "the time for polite reminders and encouragement is past over. It's time for legislations and enforcement." Big corporations, Gas and Oil, and Transportation are high on the list.

She also revealed that under the Liberals, 6 billion dollars was alloted for environment....and out of that 6 billion, only 1 billion or so can be accounted for. The rest of the money disappeared.

Of that money (1 billion or so), nothing really improved environment-wise.

[jdobbin]

Rona Ambrose emerged yesterday on a one-on-one interview at MDuffy and revealed that "the time for polite reminders and encouragement is past over. It's time for legislations and enforcement." Big corporations, Gas and Oil, and Transportation are high on the list.

The oil industry is already gearing up to fight this. It won't be popular in Alberta.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

But it may create a little vigor in Alberta! This could form the beginings of a seperatist movement in the Land of the Black Gold. It may even serve to oust the current Tory government here in a guilt by association scam!

[jbg]

She also revealed that under the Liberals, 6 billion dollars was alloted for environment....and out of that 6 billion, only 1 billion or so can be accounted for. The rest of the money disappeared.

Of that money (1 billion or so), nothing really improved environment-wise.

What a shock!!! When "progress" is inherently unmeasurable, money has a way of disappearaing. Witness the gun registry.

[jdobbin]

But it may create a little vigor in Alberta! This could form the beginings of a seperatist movement in the Land of the Black Gold. It may even serve to oust the current Tory government here in a guilt by association scam!

It will certainly piss off some Albertans when the Conservatives do what they accused the Liberals of: going after the oil and gas industry.

[Ricki Bobbi]

It will certainly piss off some Albertans when the Conservatives do what they accused the Liberals of: going after the oil and gas industry.

It all depends on how they do it.

If it is only a small part of a much larger plan, and Albertans see the manufacturing industry also being affected by the plan, then there won't be that many people pissed off.

The thing that pissed Albertans off about the NEP is Alberta was being screwed to help Ontario. If it everybody is feeling pain over the issue we will be much more accomodating.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It will certainly piss off some Albertans when the Conservatives do what they accused the Liberals of: going after the oil and gas industry.

It all depends on how they do it.

If it is only a small part of a much larger plan, and Albertans see the manufacturing industry also being affected by the plan, then there won't be that many people pissed off.

The thing that pissed Albertans off about the NEP is Alberta was being screwed to help Ontario. If it everybody is feeling pain over the issue we will be much more accomodating.

I think not. It won't matter how they do it, even the question of why did they do it matter if they in fact do implement such a political travesty. My money is on them doing it. They are watching the Liberal Leadership campaign and the proponents of a carbon tax are finding some traction in Ontario and Quebec. With that in mind they are fully capable of stealing the thunder, don't think for a second that the Conservatives aren't actively pursuing the means to acquire a majority!

The only people feeling pain over this issue will be in Alberta. This foolish plan will have no application to off shore oil in the maritimes or in BC, it will just be oil the ground that gets tagged. The point is that Alberta simply doesn't have the demographics to avoid the consequences of any such action. There are a lousy 28 seats here and Harper knows that. What he wants is the seats in Quebec, you now the ones where there will be no carbon tax because of the hydro industry!

[jdobbin]

The only people feeling pain over this issue will be in Alberta. This foolish plan will have no application to off shore oil in the maritimes or in BC, it will just be oil the ground that gets tagged. The point is that Alberta simply doesn't have the demographics to avoid the consequences of any such action. There are a lousy 28 seats here and Harper knows that. What he wants is the seats in Quebec, you now the ones where there will be no carbon tax because of the hydro industry!

Can't win anymore seats in Alberta. You're right about that. The oil industry is getting ready to fight this tooth and nail. They will rally Albertans against any thing that taxes them more. And yes, it will be a tax of some sort most borne on the oil industry which is mostly based in Alberta.

Not likely they are going after nuclear plants in Ontario or hydro dams in Manitoba, Quebec and Newfoundland. They won't even go after oil rigs.

[August1991]

And yes, it will be a tax of some sort most borne on the oil industry which is mostly based in Alberta.

I agree that there will be a tax of some sort but it won't be borne only by the oil industry. Consumers will also bear the burden.

And keep in mind something else. We will be paying the tax to ourselves.

The Conservatives can choose to do this but if they don't, then a new Liberal government will likely do it. The policy in inevitable.

Not long ago, anyone could park their car anywhere they wanted without restriction and without a fee. Those days are gone. In the same sense, the days where someone can spew large quantities of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere without charge are numbered.

We must pay ourselves for the use of the environment that we all own.

[jdobbin]

I agree that there will be a tax of some sort but it won't be borne only by the oil industry. Consumers will also bear the burden.

Not disagreeing here. But if they introduce this policy and then blame the Liberals for having to do it, it won't matter a whit to Albertans. They'll remember. And the oil and gas industry will keep reminding them.

[August1991]

But if they introduce this policy and then blame the Liberals for having to do it, it won't matter a whit to Albertans. They'll remember. And the oil and gas industry will keep reminding them.

If Albertans want to set up Reform Party Part II, they can go ahead. But it will just mean another 13 years of Liberal government in Ottawa.

[jdobbin]

If Albertans want to set up Reform Party Part II, they can go ahead. But it will just mean another 13 years of Liberal government in Ottawa.

If they get angry enough, they might just do it.

I expect a full court press attack on any environmental legislation that has anything to do with the oil and gas industry.

[jbg]

Not long ago, anyone could park their car anywhere they wanted without restriction and without a fee. Those days are gone. In the same sense, the days where someone can spew large quantities of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere without charge are numbered.

We must pay ourselves for the use of the environment that we all own.

Not a great analogy. There's no evidence that CO2 causes damage. There's only so many parking spots in suburban and urban area so there has to be some control.

[watching&waiting]

The people of Alberta are not stupid and believe me when I say that as long as the new meansures that are going to be taken, are seen as across the board of all Canadian businesses and provinces, there will be very little back lash. Even the oil industry must be aware that if push comes to shove, they will lose big time in all of it. The one waty to losing is a definite push to bring in alternative fuels like hydrogen and other totally non oil based fuels. We know that the science is there and if push comes to shove governments could well make the money needed to finally get these done, available. Then whenoil is $12.00CDN a barrel and the tarsands are closed due to costs, this small but needed effort at emmissions control will seem like a stupid thing to get upset about.

So, no I do not believe that Alberta or for that matter any province will get all lathered up about controls on emmissions. Short sighted thinking is something that many alarmists use to get attention. But it is the large thinkers and those who calmly see and learn about the actions, that will be winners of the day. It has not been a thing where we can deny that there are effects even if they are small they still are effects. So, yes more then enough time has past for the industries to get there heads around this, and now it is time for them to react willingly, to the laws that are about to be past. If they fight it, then they will do so at their own peril.

[Topaz]

Aren't most of the provinces doing more on the enviroment than the Feds? Ontario has the car emission test , which is a pain, for car 20years and under. every 3 years. She has said to the auto industry she wants them to have California emission rules in here Canada. Question is how is she going to make them do it.? They can pull out of Canada and go else where, and the cars imported here don't have the emission rating that she wants, are we not going to be able to drive the car??? How is she going to deal with the pollution that comes across the southern border?

[jdobbin]

So, no I do not believe that Alberta or for that matter any province will get all lathered up about controls on emmissions. Short sighted thinking is something that many alarmists use to get attention. But it is the large thinkers and those who calmly see and learn about the actions, that will be winners of the day. It has not been a thing where we can deny that there are effects even if they are small they still are effects. So, yes more then enough time has past for the industries to get there heads around this, and now it is time for them to react willingly, to the laws that are about to be past. If they fight it, then they will do so at their own peril.

Emissions controls and taxation are very controversial in Alberta. They will make this an issue about Alberta being stuck with the bill.

[B. Max]

So, no I do not believe that Alberta or for that matter any province will get all lathered up about controls on emmissions. Short sighted thinking is something that many alarmists use to get attention. But it is the large thinkers and those who calmly see and learn about the actions, that will be winners of the day. It has not been a thing where we can deny that there are effects even if they are small they still are effects. So, yes more then enough time has past for the industries to get there heads around this, and now it is time for them to react willingly, to the laws that are about to be past. If they fight it, then they will do so at their own peril.

Emissions controls and taxation are very controversial in Alberta. They will make this an issue about Alberta being stuck with the bill.

The proper word is betrayal. It is one of the strongest motives for murder. This will be seen in Alberta as the selling out of Alberta to cater to Quebec. Albertans would likely put up with catering to Quebec, but they will not stand for the destruction of Alberta's economy to cater to Quebec. The oil companies don't have to do anything, they will simply cut back operations which they have already begun to do. In the north Apache has cut it's drilling budget for this year by 30%, Encana cut theirs by 100%. If i were a new comer in Alberta, say with in the last ten years and had a house with a big mortgage on it. I'd be putting a for sale sign on it today and moving back to where I came from and where the welfare is likely better.

[kimmy]

The oil industry is already gearing up to fight this. It won't be popular in Alberta.

O RLY?

Pierre Alvarez, president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, said the industry is ready to work with the government, hinting that there could be extensive discussions ahead.

"We're well equipped to go into these conversations. Our views are well known in terms of what we look for in any policy.

"We look for things like making sure that there's no discrimination so that our sector isn't treated any less fairly than anybody else.

"We want to make sure we're able to explain cost issues to investors. We want to make sure technology is the focus. Of course a really big one for us is making sure the federal and provincial systems are harmonized."

Sun news

I think August's point regarding the inevitability of legislation is a good one. The industry is probably well aware that they're better to get this done while the Harper government is in power than to put it off until some hostile regime has taken over in Ottawa.

And, Ricki Bobbi's comment that how pissed off Albertans are depends on how it's implemented is also on target. The chief irritant regarding the Chretien/Martin gang's Kyoto implementation "plan" was the fact that automobile manufacturers had been promised carte-blanche exemption before any discussion of the implementation had even begun.

-k

[jdobbin]

O RLY?

Pierre Alvarez, president of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, said the industry is ready to work with the government, hinting that there could be extensive discussions ahead.

"We're well equipped to go into these conversations. Our views are well known in terms of what we look for in any policy.

"We look for things like making sure that there's no discrimination so that our sector isn't treated any less fairly than anybody else.

"We want to make sure we're able to explain cost issues to investors. We want to make sure technology is the focus. Of course a really big one for us is making sure the federal and provincial systems are harmonized."

Sun news

I think August's point regarding the inevitability of legislation is a good one. The industry is probably well aware that they're better to get this done while the Harper government is in power than to put it off until some hostile regime has taken over in Ottawa.

And, Ricki Bobbi's comment that how pissed off Albertans are depends on how it's implemented is also on target. The chief irritant regarding the Chretien/Martin gang's Kyoto implementation "plan" was the fact that automobile manufacturers had been promised carte-blanche exemption before any discussion of the implementation had even begun.

Already saw that on the news. What financial analysts have been saying all morning is that when the oil and gas industry says they will have extensive talks, it means they will fight anything that has emissions standards that are anything but voluntary. That has been their major plank all along. You think differently?

[jdobbin]

The proper word is betrayal. It is one of the strongest motives for murder. This will be seen in Alberta as the selling out of Alberta to cater to Quebec. Albertans would likely put up with catering to Quebec, but they will not stand for the destruction of Alberta's economy to cater to Quebec. The oil companies don't have to do anything, they will simply cut back operations which they have already begun to do. In the north Apache has cut it's drilling budget for this year by 30%, Encana cut theirs by 100%. If i were a new comer in Alberta, say with in the last ten years and had a house with a big mortgage on it. I'd be putting a for sale sign on it today and moving back to where I came from and where the welfare is likely better.

This will be seen for what it is in Alberta for sure. It is about catering to votes in Quebec as far as the oil and gas industry is concerned.

[kimmy]

Already saw that on the news. What financial analysts have been saying all morning is that when the oil and gas industry says they will have extensive talks, it means they will fight anything that has emissions standards that are anything but voluntary. That has been their major plank all along. You think differently?

I do. I think that at the end of the day, the oilpatch knows that they're better off dealing with Harper and friends than waiting to see who gets elected next time.

Does Mr Alvarez think he's going to be better off waiting for an Ontario Prime Minister and a Quebec Environment Minister to be in power to reach some sort of environmental agreement? I doubt it. I think they're smart enough to see that they're better off coming to an agreement with this government than waiting for the next one.

-k

[jdobbin]

I do. I think that at the end of the day, the oilpatch knows that they're better off dealing with Harper and friends than waiting to see who gets elected next time.

Does Mr Alvarez think he's going to be better off waiting for an Ontario Prime Minister and a Quebec Environment Minister to be in power to reach some sort of environmental agreement? I doubt it. I think they're smart enough to see that they're better off coming to an agreement with this government than waiting for the next one.

I think they were hoping for the same policy that Bush has. Voluntary controls. That is what they'll push.

[kimmy]

We shall see...

I think the Conservatives recognize that achieving a significant environmental policy would be a major triumph. (their predecessors had years to do it, and accomplished... nothing.) I think they recognize it will likely be a factor in their political success or failure in the next election. And, they must recognize that "voluntary" anything is not going to cut it in the eyes of voters.

Canadian voters want some kind of environmental policy. Even Alberta voters don't oppose the idea. Alberta leaders have attacked Kyoto, but recognize the popularity of environmental objectives with the voters and have argued that Kyoto be replaced with a "made in Canada" (etc etc) environmental policy.

Albertans will accept a Conservative policy because (unlike Kyoto) it'll be a "made in Canada" policy.

Other Canadians will accept a Conservative policy because (unlike the Liberals Kyoto implementation) it'll actually happen.

-k

[geoffrey]

It will certainly piss off some Albertans when the Conservatives do what they accused the Liberals of: going after the oil and gas industry.

It all depends on how they do it.

If it is only a small part of a much larger plan, and Albertans see the manufacturing industry also being affected by the plan, then there won't be that many people pissed off.

The thing that pissed Albertans off about the NEP is Alberta was being screwed to help Ontario. If it everybody is feeling pain over the issue we will be much more accomodating.

If the auto industry and Quebec metals manufacturing bare an equal cost, then hey, how can one really protest... besides my usual "there are more important priorities in the environment than CO2... cancer causing toxins and asthma".

Can't win anymore seats in Alberta. You're right about that. The oil industry is getting ready to fight this tooth and nail. They will rally Albertans against any thing that taxes them more. And yes, it will be a tax of some sort most borne on the oil industry which is mostly based in Alberta.

Not likely they are going after nuclear plants in Ontario or hydro dams in Manitoba, Quebec and Newfoundland. They won't even go after oil rigs.

They can't win any seats in Alberta, but they sure can lose 28 seats awfully fast. A Liberal hasn't been elected in Calgary since the NEP, and won't for any time in the near future.

If Albertans want to set up Reform Party Part II, they can go ahead. But it will just mean another 13 years of Liberal government in Ottawa.

What's the difference between the Liberals and CPC when it comes to Alberta really? If both are targetting oil and gas with NEP II, I could really care less who's in power.

From a PM that used to be part of the "West wants in" group, he sure has a funny way of showing it.

--

In my opinion, the reason the oil industry is support this move right now anyways, is they see controls as inevitable. If they can negotiate some weak controls with the CPC, it'll be more difficult later to change them under a Liberal government. If they protest and fight the CPC, they then risk being at the whim of Quebec/Ontario in future environmental discussions.

[B. Max]

The proper word is betrayal. It is one of the strongest motives for murder. This will be seen in Alberta as the selling out of Alberta to cater to Quebec. Albertans would likely put up with catering to Quebec, but they will not stand for the destruction of Alberta's economy to cater to Quebec. The oil companies don't have to do anything, they will simply cut back operations which they have already begun to do. In the north Apache has cut it's drilling budget for this year by 30%, Encana cut theirs by 100%. If i were a new comer in Alberta, say with in the last ten years and had a house with a big mortgage on it. I'd be putting a for sale sign on it today and moving back to where I came from and where the welfare is likely better.

This will be seen for what it is in Alberta for sure. It is about catering to votes in Quebec as far as the oil and gas industry is concerned.

Ambrose has said no buying of the phony foriegn carbon credits, but she didn't say anything about the same phony credits with in the country. Quebec already has one of these phony markets set up and just waiting for this federal legislation. This how I see it, Quebec companies bleed Alberta companies through these phony markets. Hopefully the oil companies begin to fund Alberta secession rather than be sucked into the red tory/ Quebec extortion racket.