Europe paralized with fear

[betsy]

Again, you speak of religious extremists - that exists in every faith. To blame it on the faith alone removes too many contexts.

Yes they do exist in every faith. But do all religion teach DEATH TO ALL NON-BELIEVERS?

Does the Dalai Lama...or the Pope....or the other religious leaders....call their followers to arms with the promise that killing as many infidels will bring you 72 virgins in the afterlife? That it is an honor for your family that you die a martyr for your god?

Do they issue any "death sentence"...what you call a "fatwa" to anyone like Rushdie for writing what they deemed as an insult to their prophet?

[betsy]

Do you know any 2nd or 3rd generation Muslim immigrants ? They lose their faith as all of us have.

I've noticed...where do you get your facts that you can confidently "generalize?"

Speaking of 2nd or 3rd generation Muslim, strange you should bring that up!

The subway bombings in England and the most recent alleged terrorist plot to storm our Parliament and behead our leader...some of the suspects are "home-grown" Muslims.

Questions are being asked why those who were born and raised in a western society....would end up turning against it...to the point of a willingness to kill and maim innocent fellow-citizens. Some blame it on cyberspace. Others on fanatical beliefs learned from home (like the Khadrs I guess). Nevertheless, the result is just the same, whether they get the idea from their church, at home, on-line etc.

It is the ease of switching loyalties that is troubling. This was raised on an interview at CTV newsnet around the time of the foiled Parliament attack.

So where's your proof to back up the statement you just made about the 2nd or 3rd generation Muslims. "I know thousands of Muslims personally..." doesn't count.

I understand you are giving your speculations....but for your opinion to be given some weight, you've got to offer some proof on which you base your opinion. Otherwise, it is nothing more than just idle comment.

Just about anybody can make a comment that don't actually mean anything.

[betsy]

Well, I don't understand then why you fear the extremists, if you have Muslim friends and acquaintences then you know that they're not all 'like that'.

Some neighbors of mass killers or child murderers appear baffled upon learning their neighbor had done that kind of crime.

And speaking of such....some people in a district in England (apparently where some of those terrorists grew up) were interviewed. They all look Mid Eastern...and they were baffled that these men whom they knew all their lives could do such a thing! So there goes your theory about "knowing they're not ALL like that" simply because they're your friends, and acquaintances....down the tube.

Heck, the WIFE OF THE SHOOTER in the Amish County said "he is not the man I know as my husband!"

And they had 3 children together!

I might trust my friends implicitly....but do you want to stretch that trust to "acquaintances" as well?

Like the guy you always see at a bus stop waiting for the same bus on a regular basis? The one you exchange comments about the weather...or the bus being late...before he or you bury yourselves reading your papers?

[betsy]

We do not live in an Enlightened Society. We live in the illusion of an Enlightened Society. An illusion that is quickly fading.

Please explain what you mean by that.

[betsy]

That is nonsense. I have seen the resumes of many Muslims who have come to Canada with Masters degrees in Engineering and Science.

Oh I believe you that some are educated. Especially on the matter of Engineering and Science!

They learn how to pilot big airplanes! Learn the best way to make the most damage to buildings...the best spots to hit that could bring 'em down like a pack of cards!

Sorry, couldn't resist the temptation there Michael...of all examples of degrees, you had to choose Science and Engineering. Just kidding with you here.

[Argus]

Then, the great Islamic civilisation went into decline. With hindsight, we could pinpoint the turning point that marked the decline. This was when the learned Muslims interpreted knowledge acquisition as enjoined by the Quran in Iqraq or “Read" to mean acquiring only the knowledge of the Islamic religion, rejecting other knowledge as un-Islamic as giving no merit in the afterlife. Following this, the Muslims gave up the study of science, mathematics, medicine and other so-called worldly disciplines. Instead they spent much time debating on Islamic teachings and interpretations, on Islamic jurisprudence and Islamic practices. The differences in the interpretations and understanding of Islam led to a break-up of the ummah and the founding of numerous sects, cults and schools. Such were the differences between them that they often kill and war against each other. To this day they are blowing up each other’s mosques to the delight of their detractors. Almost at the same time of the Muslims rejection of worldly knowledge which started them on their decline, the Europeans, benefiting from the early studies and researches of the Muslim scholars achieved 1their Renaissance and went on to develop their countries until they were able to threaten and dominate us, with their wealth, knowledge and military power

Again, you speak of religious extremists - that exists in every faith. To blame it on the faith alone removes too many contexts. Do you know any 2nd or 3rd generation Muslim immigrants ? They lose their faith as all of us have.

I'm not speaking about extremists but mainstream believers. And just how many 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims do you know?

Muslims became a backward people because they decided that a true Muslim must study only Islam. Universities in Muslim nations are jammed with students studying the Koran, and arguing various interpretations. They feel things like Science, Mathematics and Engineering are unworthy of them. That cultural tradition is one which rejects not only modern social beliefs, but modern empthasis on science as well.

That is nonsense. I have seen the resumes of many Muslims who have come to Canada with Masters degrees in Engineering and Science.

Those are the rare exceptions.

"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," he told the delegates.

While the collective Gross National Product of the all Muslim countries stands at $1,200bn, that of Germany alone is $2,500bn and that of Japan $5,500bn.

He said one of the main reasons for this disparity was that none of the Muslim countries had ever paid any attention to educational and scientific development.

Muslims are world's most backward people

In the Christian society literacy implies education of at least primary level whereas in Muslim society a person who could read and write is considered to be literate. If the criterion of the Christian world is taken into account then hardly 10% population of the Muslim countries can claim to be literate. The importance of education in the Christian countries can be judged by the fact that around 40% get higher education including specialization in various disciplines of science. This is less than 2% in Muslim countries. Even the standard of higher education of the meagre 2% is lower in Muslim countries when compared with the Christian world. As a matter of fact, many of the highly educated Muslims get specialized knowledge of science, engineering and medicine in the Christian West.

Status of Muslim Societies

[betsy]

Actually Michael, if you do not or you cannot offer any proof that supports your "counter assertion"...you'd be the best proof I have...on which I base ALL my apprehensions.

[Remiel]

Has anyone even bothered to talk to any Europeans about their personal feelings about all of this? I doubt that anyone over there really feels " paralized " by fear.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm not speaking about extremists but mainstream believers. And just how many 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims do you know?

Argus, I know a handful of them. What's your point ?

[Michael Hardner]

Actually Michael, if you do not or you cannot offer any proof that supports your "counter assertion"...you'd be the best proof I have...on which I base ALL my apprehensions.

I'd be the best proof ? How do you mean ?

You've already stated that you are friends with Muslims. Isn't that proof enough that they can assimilate, like every other race ?

[Argus]

I'm not speaking about extremists but mainstream believers. And just how many 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims do you know?

Argus, I know a handful of them. What's your point ?

How very unusual. There can't be more than a handful in Canada. Their numbers prior to the seventies were miniscule. People coming in the seeventies would have had kids (1st generation) who would be in their twenties and early thirties now. The second generation would thus be in diapers or primary school.

And you can't be a secular Muslim. You are either a Muslim believer or you are not a Muslim.

[Riverwind]

And you can't be a secular Muslim. You are either a Muslim believer or you are not a Muslim.

Explain that to the Turks. Creating a western style society that is secular and Islamic has been a long time goal. They have largely succeeded.

[Argus]

And you can't be a secular Muslim. You are either a Muslim believer or you are not a Muslim.

Explain that to the Turks. Creating a western style society that is secular and Islamic has been a long time goal. They have largely succeeded.

Which is why Turkey's military intervenes every now and then to hammer back the Islamists who want an Islamic state, right?

Top Turk General wary of Islamists

[Riverwind]

Which is why Turkey's military intervenes every now and then to hammer back the Islamists who want an Islamic state, right?

The overwhelming majority of Turks are Muslim yet only a minority seek to establish a Islamic state. That more or less disproves your assertion that Islam and securalism are not compatible.

[jbg]

It looks like radical Muslims have achieved for moderate Muslims what moderate Muslims would never be able to achieve by themselves.

And that is a FORCED RESPECT for THEIR religion utilizing terror tactics.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenew...TS-RELIGION.xml

We're dhimmis in our own home.

[scribblet]

I am convinced Muslims and Islam are not adaptable to modern civilization and belong back in the dark ages where they belong.

Their stringent religious beliefs are not compatible with free, democratic countries.

Which begs to answer the question: Why are countries like Canada continuing to allow immigration from Arab Muslim countries?

There are some politicians in Britain who are getting worried, problem is when they try to do something about the issue, they are attacked as being racist. No country can increase their population in such large amounts without problems.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,19...1454486,00.html

Michael Howard today launched his party's new hardline policy on immigration and asylum, promising to pull Britain out of the 1951 UN Refugee Convention.

The Conservative leader said that he wants to remove the incentive for economic migrants to pose as asylum-seekers, if his party wins the next election.

A certain number of work permits would be issued to allow economic migrants to enter Britain legally, but foreigners arriving in Britain and trying to claim asylum would probably face a long wait in an overseas detention camp.

The policy was immediately criticised by race equality campaigners and by UNHCR, the UN refugee agency.

Beheading Nations: The Islamization of Europe’s Cities

From the desk of Fjordman on Thu, 2006-07-13 22:31

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1183

We have seen videos on TV of Muslim Jihadis beheading infidel hostages. Less attention has been paid to the fact that Muslims are beheading entire nation states. Although this is happening in slow motion, it is no less dramatic. Historically, the major cities have constituted a country’s “head,” the seat of most of its political institutions and the largest concentration of its cultural brainpower. What happens when this “head” is cut off from the rest of the body?

In many countries across Western Europe, Muslim immigrants tend to settle in major cities, with the native population retreating to minor cities or into the countryside. Previously, Europeans or non-Europeans could travel between countries and visit new cities, each with its own, distinctive character and peculiarities. Soon, you will travel from London to Paris, Amsterdam or Stockholm and find that you have left one city dominated by burkas and sharia to find… yet another city dominated by burkas and sharia.

For some reason, this eradication of unique, urban cultures is to be celebrated as “cultural diversity.” Britain’s population is projected to rise by more than seven million in the next 25 years. The predictions were even greater than those made by the Migrationwatch UK think-tank, whose forecasts had been dismissed in the past as alarmist. Sir Andrew Green, the chairman of Migrationwatch, said the figures were “staggering.” “They totally demolish the Government’s claim that it has a ‘managed migration’ policy. In fact they show that immigration into the UK is out of control.” British citizenship has been granted to nearly one million foreign nationals since Labour and Tony Blair came to power in 1997. “Grants of citizenship have quadrupled under the present Government. This is a direct result of their ‘no limits’ immigration policy.” “Immigration on this scale is changing the nature of our society without public consent. It is no longer acceptable.”

More white families are moving from London to the regions while many immigrants arrive in the capital from overseas. Migrationwatch said that the change in 10 years had been “extraordinarily rapid” and “unprecedented.” Whites will soon become a minority in Birmingham and other major British cities, posing a “critical” challenge to social stability, Britain’s race relations watchdog warned. Statistics showed that white and ethnic minority communities were becoming increasingly segregated.

“Asian youths,” a British euphemism for Pakistanis and Muslims from South Asia, in parts of Oldham are trying to create no-go areas for white people. One of them told: “There are signs all around saying whites enter at your risk. It’s a matter of revenge.” However, it’s not just the white natives that are targets of Muslim violence, but other non-Muslims, too. A report on Hindus being driven out of the English city of Bradford by young Muslims was described by some Hindus as “ethnic cleansing.” Some of them want to leave the city to escape the “Talibanization of Bradford.”

[rogue state]

europe is not only the anglosaxons.

mahmoud ghalehnoii

[scribblet]

europe is not only the anglosaxons.

mahmoud ghalehnoii

Obviously not, but economically and culturally Britain among others is not any better off. They have major problems which will only be exacerbated if the influx of people who cannot or will not integrate into their society peacefully.

Britain cannot absorb any more immigrants, no matter where they are from, especially when they do not believe in the same freedoms we do e.g. Freedom of speech and freedom from violent threats and attacks.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13...2385684,00.html

Philosophers demand help for teacher on run from Islam threats

From Charles Bremner in Paris

INTELLECTUALS are rallying around a philosophy teacher forced into hiding after he wrote an article describing the Prophet Muhammad as a ruthless warlord and mass murderer.

Robert Redeker, a writer who teaches at a lycée near Toulouse, has been under police protection, moving between secret addresses, since threats against him appeared on Islamist websites last week. His home address was published with calls to murder. “You will never feel secure on this earth. One billion, 300 million Muslims are ready to kill you,” one message said. One threat came from a contributor to al- Hesbah, an internet forum that is viewed as a channel for al-Qaeda. Despite the threats the Government has offered M Redeker, 52, only limited support.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Europe is already done.

When you factor in:

1. Miniscule birthrates of "traditional" Europeans

2. Massive settlements of unassimilated Muslim Immigrants

3. Very Large birthrates of these muslim populations

4. The muslim community's refusal to back down on anything it deems "offensive"

5. The European media/government's willingness to acquiescne to the muslim community's intimidation - even if it means curtyailing basic freedoms such as speech.

Given the rate at which governments, institutions, media and even private enterprise are willing to back down to intimidation by the Islamic community in Europe, we don't even need to wait until the population swings to Muslim majority. The strings of power are already being pulled by the Islamists.

Just look at foreign policy and you'll see the loyalties are shifting.

America and Canada are the last chance for free western democracy. Let's not screw it up by making the same aqcuiescant, asskissing, "tolerance" mistakes made by the Europeans.

[betsy]

Actually Michael, if you do not or you cannot offer any proof that supports your "counter assertion"...you'd be the best proof I have...on which I base ALL my apprehensions.

I'd be the best proof ? How do you mean ?

You've already stated that you are friends with Muslims. Isn't that proof enough that they can assimilate, like every other race ?

This is not about assimilation. Some terrorists had even more than assimilated quite superbly in fact (London bombing and some suspects from Parliament plot))....they were even born and raised in a western society. So of course, being friends with Muslims isn't proof enough! And you know it.

Michael, do stop kidding and be serious.....otherwise I'd think you're trying to deflect and wiggle out from having to support your argument.

You said:

"Your apprehension is based on a fallacy that Muslims will behave differently than every other people who came to the Americas. I just don't think that's true. "

And I asked:

How can you say it's a "fallacy?" How do you support your assertion that it is a "fallacy?"

[betsy]

And I would also like to know how you support this assertion you made:

"Do you know any 2nd or 3rd generation Muslim immigrants ? They lose their faith as all of us have."

So far, my question regarding that sweeping comment remains unanswered. So I'll re-post it:

"Where do you get your facts that you can confidently "generalize?"

Generalize not only regarding ALL 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants losing their faith.....but also about " they lose their faith as ALL OF US have."

I know some French and English Canadians who are 3rd generation or more...some are descendants from the settlers...and yet still practice the same faith.

You need to support your statement.

[jbg]

Obviously not, but economically and culturally Britain among others is not any better off. They have major problems which will only be exacerbated if the influx of people who cannot or will not integrate into their society peacefully.

Britain cannot absorb any more immigrants, no matter where they are from, especially when they do not believe in the same freedoms we do e.g. Freedom of speech and freedom from violent threats and attacks.

Shredding the social safety net would force many of these people to return to from where they came.

[Michael Hardner]

I know some French and English Canadians who are 3rd generation or more...some are descendants from the settlers...and yet still practice the same faith.

You need to support your statement.

Well, you're right. I can't prove that Muslims will change the same as every other race that comes here.

I don't think Muslims will stop practicing their religion altogether, but that they will become Canadianized as every other religion has.

But - you're right - I guess I can't prove it any more than you can prove that they won't in twenty years or so.

I just don't see why one group of people will act any differently. Nothing posted here is convincing to me.

[Argus]

Which is why Turkey's military intervenes every now and then to hammer back the Islamists who want an Islamic state, right?

The overwhelming majority of Turks are Muslim yet only a minority seek to establish a Islamic state. That more or less disproves your assertion that Islam and securalism are not compatible.

Only a minority, which is why the army has to overthrow them when they keep becoming the government.

If an Islamist party - check that, the current party in power is Islamist to a small degree - if an openly Islamist party was allowed to run for office, it would be elected.

[betsy]

Well, you're right. I can't prove that Muslims will change the same as every other race that comes here.

I don't think Muslims will stop practicing their religion altogether, but that they will become Canadianized as every other religion has.

But - you're right - I guess I can't prove it any more than you can prove that they won't in twenty years or so.

I just don't see why one group of people will act any differently. Nothing posted here is convincing to me.

Corrections Michael. You can't prove your assertion....but I HAD PROVEN MINE!

You don't see it, because you refuse to see it!