Northwest Passage

[Higgly]

"The United States, as well as Japan and the European Union, insist that the ice-choked passage, which winds through the archipelago of the Canadian Arctic to link the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, is an international waterway.

In 1988, Conservative prime minister Brian Mulroney and U.S. president Ronald Reagan signed a pact whereby Washington agreed to tell Ottawa before sending non-military ships through the Northwest Passage.

In return, Ottawa agreed to never say no."

We'll let you know when we sell Japan some land up there. This is certainly an interesting approach though: we and they agree to give us your land. Hands up all Canadians who think Japan has any business in this.

As for the "secret" treaty, please provide a link. Sending military ships through somebody else's territory is considered an act of aggression in many parts of the world and would be a cause for beating the war drums if somebody else did it to the US. Seems to me that pretty much breaks any treaty.

I do agree with the idea of using our icebreakers to ram the ships of interlopers though. After all, we did it to the Spanish when they tried to fish our waters illegally.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Higgly

[bush_cheney2004]

...In 1986, Canada and the US signed the Arctic Co-operation agreement in which the US agreed to request permission before sending ice breakers through. In 2005, the US sent a submarine through, unannounced and without our permission. Another fine example of how the US keeps its word. Software lumber anyone? This year, the Canadian government announced it is going to build a deep water port up there in order to assert our sovereignty.

If you're nice to us, maybe we'll grant you innocent passage, but sending an oil tanker, and especially a nuclear submarine, through there without asking... well that's just not neighbourly at all.

The US does not need permission at all. One of the joys of submarine passage is that even if we got "caught", there wasn't a damn thing Canada could do about it except bitch a lot and grant permission after the fact. The Rooskies didn't need permission either...LOL! Now where did I put my Blue Nose Certficate.....

[Guest American Woman]

The U.S., the EU, Japan, and Russia all dispute Canada's claim to the NW Passage. That doesn't appear to bode well for Canada.

[Topaz]

The US does not need permission at all. One of the joys of submarine passage is that even if we got "caught", there wasn't a damn thing Canada could do about it except bitch a lot and grant permission after the fact. The Rooskies didn't need permission either...LOL! Now where did I put my Blue Nose Certficate.....

Newsflash, with globe warming nuke subs will not be able to stay down as long because the water is heating up, this was said on the news the other day. Beside, I don't think you would want to run into a russia ship or sub!

[bush_cheney2004]

Newsflash, with globe warming nuke subs will not be able to stay down as long because the water is heating up, this was said on the news the other day. Beside, I don't think you would want to run into a russia ship or sub!

Total nonsense....the seawater injection temperatures are lot higher in the Indian Ocean, but that didn't stop us one bit. The whole purpose was to "run into" a Russian sub (or ship). If it make you feel any better, one of "my" boats was named the USS Narwhal (SSN-671), after the Arctic whale.

[Smallc]

The US does not need permission at all. One of the joys of submarine passage is that even if we got "caught", there wasn't a damn thing Canada could do about it except bitch a lot and grant permission after the fact. The Rooskies didn't need permission either...LOL! Now where did I put my Blue Nose Certficate.....

Ho well, when we put the new anti submarine patrol ships along with the listening posts and air patrols up there we'll have to see how that goes for you....

[Smallc]

The U.S., the EU, Japan, and Russia all dispute Canada's claim to the NW Passage. That doesn't appear to bode well for Canada.

My position is that parts of it are in Canada, and parts may not be. The parts in our waters are under our control. I suppose everyone is a little bit right. And to your post, of course they would dispute it, because they don;t want to have to get permission to use it.

[Guest American Woman]

Ho well, when we put the new anti submarine patrol ships along with the listening posts and air patrols up there we'll have to see how that goes for you....

You do see that it's not just the U.S. disputing Canada's claim to the NW Passage, right? What are you saying -- that you're going to take on the world to hold onto your claim?

[Higgly]

You do see that it's not just the U.S. disputing Canada's claim to the NW Passage, right? What are you saying -- that you're going to take on the world to hold onto your claim?

So when the world told you to go to hell over Iraq, you ignored them; now that you've got some backing for one of your other cockamamy ideas, you're all for it?

In matters of sovereignty, the world's opinion is worth a rat's ass. If it comes to taking on the world, I think you might be surprised to find how many friends we have, and how many enemies you have .

Here's that map again. Looks like a pretty tight fit in there, doesn't it?

I'd certainly be all for pulling out of Afghanistan over this. The US got itself into that mess by running around ticking everybody else off, let them bail themselves out. It'll give them something else to think about besides coming up here and making a nuisance of themselves.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Higgly

[Smallc]

You do see that it's not just the U.S. disputing Canada's claim to the NW Passage, right? What are you saying -- that you're going to take on the world to hold onto your claim?

Just because a bunch of idiots agree does not make them right. It's our waterway (at least some of it, and the map makes that quite clear. How coud something that comes so close to our islands not be ours?

[Guest American Woman]

Just because a bunch of idiots agree does not make them right. It's our waterway (at least some of it, and the map makes that quite clear. How coud something that comes so close to our islands not be ours?

Of course being in agreement doesn't make a bunch of idiots right. By the same token, having a different view from yours doesn't make people idiots.

Straits have been viewed worldwide as international waters, so from what I'm reading, viewing the NW Passage as international waters is consistant with how straits are regarded in the rest of the world. How can something that comes so close to other nations' land not be theirs?

My point is, idiots or not, if the rest of the world is viewing the passage as international waters, what is Canada going to do about it? Take on the world?-- Start shooting at ships that go through?

The nations viewing it as international waters are basically all allies of Canada.

Edited November 6, 2007 by American Woman

[Higgly]

Of course being in agreement doesn't make a bunch of idiots right. By the same token, having a different view from yours doesn't make people idiots.

Straits have been viewed worldwide as international waters, so from what I'm reading, viewing the NW Passage as international waters is consistant with how straits are regarded in the rest of the world. How can something that comes so close to other nations' land not be theirs?

My point is, idiots or not, if the rest of the world is viewing the passage as international waters, what is Canada going to do about it? Take on the world?-- Start shooting at ships that go through?

The nations viewing it as international waters are basically all allies of Canada.

Look at the map, woman! Where is the strait? Do you see a strait? It's a passageway that involves navigating your way through an archipelago! The Canadian Arctic Archipelago, that is. Both sides of the passageway are our territory. This is not like the Bering Strait, Strait of Johor, what have you where each side of the strait is owned by a different party. Even if it were, I'd like to see what would happen if the Chinese were to start running nuclear subs through the Akashi Strait.

Strait, my royal Canadian arse.

As far as that lot being our allies, they're just a bunch of mooks who want something for nothing.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Higgly

[Riverwind]

Straits have been viewed worldwide as international waters, so from what I'm reading, viewing the NW Passage as international waters is consistant with how straits are regarded in the rest of the world. How can something that comes so close to other nations' land not be theirs?

AW - please read my earlier post: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....st&p=266187

Your understanding of international straits is simply incorrect - all of these waters are the terroritorial waters of Canada and there is no debate about that. The only question is if all non-military ships have the automatic right of innocent passage because there is a strait used for international navigation.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ho well, when we put the new anti submarine patrol ships along with the listening posts and air patrols up there we'll have to see how that goes for you....

Oh my...scary! Canada use to have such a capability, and WE STILL DID IT. Sea power, lines of communications, and transits through all international passages are key priorities for the Americans.

Good luck with all that new..err...old stuff.

[Smallc]

Oh my...scary! Canada use to have such a capability, and WE STILL DID IT. Sea power, lines of communications, and transits through all international passages are key priorities for the Americans.

Good luck with all that new..err...old stuff.

They are our waters, and I doubt we will give them up so easily.

[bush_cheney2004]

They are our waters, and I doubt we will give them up so easily.

Oh please....Canada already has. Sovereignty entails more than just delivering a speech in Ottawa. There have been nuclear spooks in your backyard for nearly 50 years.

Edited November 7, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Higgly]

Oh please....Canada already has. Sovereignty entails more than just delivering a speech in Ottawa. There have been nuclear spooks in your backyard for nearly 50 years.

Well, it's either us or the Ruskies, then isn't it? Better get on board bush_cheney2004. The red menace is slowly pouring down from the north like Sherwin Williams paint. We cover the globe!

Edited November 7, 2007 by Higgly

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, it's either us or the Ruskies, then isn't it? Better get on board bush_cheney2004. The red menace is slowly pouring down from the north like Sherwin Williams paint. We cover the globe!

I think you have it bass ackwards....it's the USA or Russia....same as it ever was. Sherwin-Williams is an American company...even your references drip with Americana.

[Higgly]

I think you have it bass ackwards....it's the USA or Russia....same as it ever was. Sherwin-Williams is an American company...even your references drip with Americana.

I was being ironic, but I'm not surprised that it went over your head.

Look sport. This is our land. You can come up here and mess around, but at the end of the day you are not going to get past the locals. You tried it in Vietnam, you tried it in Iraq, you try it damn near everywhere you go. And you fail every time.

Time to recognize who your friends are, n'est-ce pas?

[Guest American Woman]

AW - please read my earlier post: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....st&p=266187

Your understanding of international straits is simply incorrect - all of these waters are the terroritorial waters of Canada and there is no debate about that. The only question is if all non-military ships have the automatic right of innocent passage because there is a strait used for international navigation.

My understanding of international straits is not that great, I can't refute that. I'm just going by what other countries are saying-- that they dispute Canada's claim to the Passage. So that's really what I'm wondering about. What would Canada do in light of the world disagreeing with its claim?-- Take on the world? That's a serious question. Canada is beefing up its military there, so what is the reasoning behind that? Also, why did Canada make a claim to the Passage in 1973 if there is no doubt that the waters are territorial waters of Canada?

[Higgly]

What would Canada do in light of the world disagreeing with its claim?-- Take on the world?

We're kind of wondering about that up here too.

[bush_cheney2004]

I was being ironic, but I'm not surprised that it went over your head.

Look sport. This is our land. You can come up here and mess around, but at the end of the day you are not going to get past the locals. You tried it in Vietnam, you tried it in Iraq, you try it damn near everywhere you go. And you fail every time.

Time to recognize who your friends are, n'est-ce pas?

Nation states don't have "friends...only interests. If we had failed every time, you would be speaking Russian. We're not talking about land that most Canadians refuse to inhabit anyway, we're talking about water and ice. Let me guess...you own all that too.

[bush_cheney2004]

We're kind of wondering about that up here too.

Judging from The Great Turbot War, the response would be underwelming.

[Higgly]

Nation states don't have "friends...only interests. If we had failed every time, you would be speaking Russian. We're not talking about land that most Canadians refuse to inhabit anyway, we're talking about water and ice. Let me guess...you own all that too.

Oh really. How many yanks are up there begging for citizenship? The people who are up there are the people who have always been up there. The Originals. Or maybe I should say Aboriginals. Who ever put the Ab on the front of that?

As for your interests, sure you have interests. So do we. When your interests come into conflict with our interests, screw you.

How many places can you be knuckle a knuckle with at the same time? Aren't you in enough trouble already? Time to recognize who your friends are, n'est-ce pas?

[bush_cheney2004]

Oh really. How many yanks are up there begging for citizenship? The people who are up there are the people who have always been up there. The Originals. Or maybe I should say Aboriginals. Who ever put the Ab on the front of that?

Beats me...I don't do racist labels. People come and go....nothing is a lock...not even in ice.

As for your interests, sure you have interests. So do we. When your interests come into conflict with our interests, screw you.

See softwood lumber....who got screwed?

How many places can you be knuckle a knuckle with at the same time? Aren't you in enough trouble already? Time to recognize who your friends are, n'est-ce pas?

We didn't get to be the 300,000,000 strong from around the world by kissing anyone's ass...."trouble" is good. No need to change that to keep you happy. Need a friend? Get a dog.