Can the Clash Between Islam and Western Religions be Resolved?

[Black Dog]

To communicate about terrorism we need to agree on the meaning of the word. If the word means only what the Red Queen (Alice in Wonderland) says it means, nothing less and nothing more, the word has no purpose in communication because each of us will mean something different.

My understanding of the definition of terrorism preferred by western elites is terrorism is "what 'they' do to 'us'."

[Argus]

That was silly.

You have just listed to the forum 21 different social movements. You need 21 different explanations. I did a thesis on the shining path which ran into a few of what you listed. Even so, it was fairly unique though responding to similar conditions from about half of what you have listed.

Anyway in making the list of these diverse social movements what was your specific point (no im not being sarcastic)?

Are you being sarcastic when you use the term "social movement" for terrorist scum?

[Argus]

To communicate about terrorism we need to agree on the meaning of the word. If the word means only what the Red Queen (Alice in Wonderland) says it means, nothing less and nothing more, the word has no purpose in communication because each of us will mean something different.

My understanding of the definition of terrorism preferred by western elites is terrorism is "what 'they' do to 'us'."

Not surprisingly, your definition is as wildly out of touch with reality as just about everything else you post.

[myata]

That was silly.

You have just listed to the forum 21 different social movements. You need 21 different explanations. I did a thesis on the shining path which ran into a few of what you listed. Even so, it was fairly unique though responding to similar conditions from about half of what you have listed.

Anyway in making the list of these diverse social movements what was your specific point (no im not being sarcastic)?

Are you being sarcastic when you use the term "social movement" for terrorist scum?

Now, doesn't just finding the right word answer so many questions!

[Argus]

That was silly.

You have just listed to the forum 21 different social movements. You need 21 different explanations. I did a thesis on the shining path which ran into a few of what you listed. Even so, it was fairly unique though responding to similar conditions from about half of what you have listed.

Anyway in making the list of these diverse social movements what was your specific point (no im not being sarcastic)?

Are you being sarcastic when you use the term "social movement" for terrorist scum?

Now, doesn't just finding the right word answer so many questions!

Not everything is complex. Terrorists are scum and the only thing you need to know is where they are so you can put a bullet in their brains. I would also suggest the same fate be meted out to anyone who supports terrorism.

[jbg]

I find amusing that a poster who says he ain't religious would spell god, g-d. Myself I call him Phil.

In the Jewish religion spelling it out is not permitted.

[jbg]

Dear jbg,

Why am I beling challenged on this post?

No offence intended, but it isn't your usual writing style. Further, there have been tons of 'cross-posts', plaigiarism and trolling on this forum recently, which has left me a bit skeptical. Otherwise, a good post.

Oh OK. The catastrophe leaves me in a more serious, quiet and awed mood. Thus the difference in writing style. Also, You'll find I don't troll.

[jbg]

Fourth Generation Warfare as practiced by terrorist groups and non-state militaries like Hizbullah, is designed not to defeat the enemy in battle, but force a political resolution.

Were any political demands made prior to 9/11 by Al Quaeda?

[jbg]

What a load of crap. How about this one: Christians believe in turning the other cheek while Jews believe in an eye for an eye? What a bigot. Sodom and Gomorrah. I can't believe it. How about Abraham sacrificing his son? Go back to the mountain Moses.

Your post is quite eloquent, beautiful and moving. Can you explain what's wrong with an "eye for an eye"? Sounds roughly fair to me.

And what mountain do you want me to go back to? Mount Logan?

[jbg]

Hi jbg,

you're making a very common mistake of personalizing the truth, i.e. identifying all that is right, true and good in this world with yourself (and your people) and, obviously, the direct opposite with your opponent. While very common and respectable point of view, it nevertheless does not always reflect the factual side of the matter, and even more importantly, is a very poor position from which to search for a resolution (if that latter is what actually being sought).

How does one "resolve" anything with the authors of 9/11?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear jbg,

Were any political demands made prior to 9/11 by Al Quaeda?

Indeed there were, but rather than address them, the US (and it's media) chose to pretend that it was all about Bin Laden hating 'freedom and democracy'. The biggest 3 were: US troops out of the Saudi Peninsula, end of US support for Israel, and the end of US support for 'apostate' and often tyrannical Islamic 'puppet regimes'.

[PocketRocket]

I find amusing that a poster who says he ain't religious would spell god, g-d. Myself I call him Phil.

I thought it was Howard......

Our Father, who art in Heaven, Howard be thy name......

[jbg]

Dear jbg,

Were any political demands made prior to 9/11 by Al Quaeda?

Indeed there were, but rather than address them, the US (and it's media) chose to pretend that it was all about Bin Laden hating 'freedom and democracy'. The biggest 3 were: US troops out of the Saudi Peninsula, end of US support for Israel, and the end of US support for 'apostate' and often tyrannical Islamic 'puppet regimes'.

And we were supposed to give in on those "demands"?

[Higgly]

Your post is quite eloquent, beautiful and moving.

It is about as eloquent as your post.

Can you explain what's wrong with an "eye for an eye"? Sounds roughly fair to me.

Well why don't we call it by its other names "cycle of violence", "muerta"... Let's see ... primitive, reactionary, mindless...

[myata]

Hi jbg,

you're making a very common mistake of personalizing the truth, i.e. identifying all that is right, true and good in this world with yourself (and your people) and, obviously, the direct opposite with your opponent. While very common and respectable point of view, it nevertheless does not always reflect the factual side of the matter, and even more importantly, is a very poor position from which to search for a resolution (if that latter is what actually being sought).

How does one "resolve" anything with the authors of 9/11?

That may very well have been the words of Bin Laden (or his ideological masters) in response to creation and continous support of Isreal, installation and proping of the friendly regimes, daily suffering of Palestinian civilians, etc (no I'm not saying we should negitiate with the authors of 9/11. Just that continuation of imperial. self-centered and self-righteous foreign policy will inevitably breed more followers and increase the likelihood of further atrocities).

[Argus]

Hi jbg,

you're making a very common mistake of personalizing the truth, i.e. identifying all that is right, true and good in this world with yourself (and your people) and, obviously, the direct opposite with your opponent. While very common and respectable point of view, it nevertheless does not always reflect the factual side of the matter, and even more importantly, is a very poor position from which to search for a resolution (if that latter is what actually being sought).

How does one "resolve" anything with the authors of 9/11?

That may very well have been the words of Bin Laden (or his ideological masters) in response to creation and continous support of Isreal, installation and proping of the friendly regimes, daily suffering of Palestinian civilians, etc (no I'm not saying we should negitiate with the authors of 9/11. Just that continuation of imperial. self-centered and self-righteous foreign policy will inevitably breed more followers and increase the likelihood of further atrocities).

I guess we should put more effort into killing them, then.

[myata]

Not everything is complex. Terrorists are scum and the only thing you need to know is where they are so you can put a bullet in their brains. I would also suggest the same fate be meted out to anyone who supports terrorism.

I won't be surprised if that's word to word (maybe with replacement of terrorist-> infidel) what Osama Bin Laden is preaching to his followers. But I'm sure the parallel won't bother you. You know you're on the right side. And they all keep marching on.

[jbg]

Your post is quite eloquent, beautiful and moving.

It is about as eloquent as your post.

I meant it as a compliment. I thought your post was quite well-reasoned, thoughtful and sensitive. I appreciate your compliment in turn.

[jbg]

That may very well have been the words of Bin Laden (or his ideological masters) in response to creation and continous support of Isreal, installation and proping of the friendly regimes, daily suffering of Palestinian civilians, etc (no I'm not saying we should negitiate with the authors of 9/11. Just that continuation of imperial. self-centered and self-righteous foreign policy will inevitably breed more followers and increase the likelihood of further atrocities).

Tell me that what you've just recited has anything to do with what's described here (July 17, 2005 New York Times article excerpted below) (Link):

FOREIGN DESK

THE STRUGGLE FOR IRAQ: VIOLENCE; SUICIDE BOMBER IGNITES TANKER, KILLING 59 IRAQIS

By KIRK SEMPLE; QAIS MIZHER CONTRIBUTED REPORTING FOR THIS ARTICLE, AND AN IRAQI EMPLOYEE OF THE NEW YORK TIMES CONTRIBUTED REPORTING FROM MOSUL, AND NAZILA FATHI FROM TEHRAN. (NYT) 1420 words

Published: July 17, 2005

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Sunday, July 17 - A suicide bomber wrapped in explosives detonated himself next to a gasoline tanker south of Baghdad on Saturday night, creating a devastating fireball that killed at least 59 and wounded 86 , an Iraqi police official said.

The bombing, one the most deadly suicide attacks since the American invasion of Iraq, appeared to target a nearby Shiite mosque and a crowded open-air market and came as the streets teemed with cars, pedestrians, shoppers and worshipers enjoying the relative cool of the evening.

The bombing, in Musayyib, about 40 miles south of the capital, was the latest in an unrelenting string of dramatic suicide bombings that have killed scores of people and severely challenged the American command, which only a month ago claimed that military offensives had sharply undermined the ability of the insurgents to launch attacks and cut the number of suicide bombings in half.

Earlier on Saturday, another bomber strapped with explosives blew himself up next to a police station in Mosul, killing five Iraqi police officers.

*snip*

The attack in Musayyib was the most deadly suicide bombing since May 4, when a bomber pretending to be a job seeker blew himself up outside a police recruiting center in Erbil, the Kurdish provincial capital, killing at least 60 Kurds. As many as 70 people were killed in Baquba last July when a suicide bomber detonated an explosive-packed sedan on a busy street.

*snip*

People who talk about negotiations with anyone who could set that up are just plain nuts. Of course, one could say, in a way a very original and enterprising manner to seize on an opportunity. The opportunity to kill that many was too good to miss. While we build, those "people" kill.

[myata]

Please state how many suicide bombings were recorded in Iraq in the year before the US lead coalition barged in to liberate.

[Argus]

Not everything is complex. Terrorists are scum and the only thing you need to know is where they are so you can put a bullet in their brains. I would also suggest the same fate be meted out to anyone who supports terrorism.

I won't be surprised if that's word to word (maybe with replacement of terrorist-> infidel) what Osama Bin Laden is preaching to his followers. But I'm sure the parallel won't bother you. You know you're on the right side. And they all keep marching on.

I have little more than contempt for the intellectual bankruptcy which brought us "cultural relativism".

I'm not sure contempt is a strong enough term for someone who is comfortable equating hatred of mass murderers for the hatred espoused by mass murderers.

[Argus]

Please state how many suicide bombings were recorded in Iraq in the year before the US lead coalition barged in to liberate.

How about stating how many executions took place? How many women and children died due to sanctions which could not be removed because Sadaam would not meet the requirements of the UN.

[myata]

If memory serves me well, in his last year Saddam was sitting put afraid to move a finger, granting every wish of the inspection teams scouring the country for WMD and whatever else. Then, how many did die as a direct (i.e. "collateral damage") or indirect (destruction of civilian infrastructure, hunger, disease, crime) consequence of the "liberation"? And how many more will if it ends up in civil war?

Why don't we just leave aside those high and floppy and therefore meaningless words and just look at the deed, end result? Why should 1000 dead of unasked for liberation feel any better than those killed by a suicidal maniac? In our criminal justice here we don't make any concessions for the "morality" of the killer.

[BubberMiley]

Not everything is complex. Terrorists are scum and the only thing you need to know is where they are so you can put a bullet in their brains. I would also suggest the same fate be meted out to anyone who supports terrorism.

But when terrorism is used to fight terrorism, eventually everybody winds up dead.

[jbg]

Please state how many suicide bombings were recorded in Iraq in the year before the US lead coalition barged in to liberate.

Please state how many people post-April 2003 leaders in Iraq have fed into woodchippers.