The great debate "debate".

[Army Guy]

Things are going well, moral is climbing, we still have our moments. it's good to be busy and leave it at that. had to get a new lap top, left my ruck out in the open lets just say it's not bullet proof, in fact nither is my underwear which now has ventalation holes in places i'd rather not talk about. It's a good thing the americans have a PX on the main camp, lots of computers but sold out of underwear.

It is going to be hard to justify the continued war if a crack down on women and education starts to take shape. Even the American government is very wary of how things might be going. Certainly, we aren't going to be very happy, it they start executing converts to other religions like they intend to do.

Ther government of Afgan has been democractically elected by the people of Afgan, yes it is being proped up by the US at this time, but it is still the Government of Afgan. They may not have the same ideas as we in the west have about how to run a country. but it is a million times better than the one which was controled by the taliban.

Every western nation here is concerned about how things are going , as they should they have billions invested. but to suggest that they have begun to slip back to the taliban times is wrong. And to suggest that uncovers the fact that maybe those that suggest it don't know exactly how bad it was under taliban rule.

I for one would like to hear what the measureable outcomes are for success of the mission. For example: if the mission is to defeat the Taliban, how will that be measured? I think people are tired of the empty sloganeering that passes for information on this matter.

Those outcomes have already been clearly mentioned time after time. Not only by the military but by our government. but you do have a point the government has not done a very good job in letting the public know just what progress has been made so far. Niether has the media.

Defeating the Taliban is a small part of the mission, And when we spend more time on restruction missions than we do combat operations we will know that the taliban have begun to fade into the history books.

So, given the situation, what would it take to bring peace to this region, in your opinion?

More military resources? More educators? More economic aid?

All of the above, and we can't do that if Canadians are debating "WHY", the question should be "what can we do" to bring this country back from the brink.

This is truly a matter of opinion.

The Afghanistan issue is a very complex issue and is not not cut and dry.

Our soldiers in Afghanistan are all volunteers and whether they think this war is worth the fight then it is totally their personal business or decision independent of what any Canadian might think or support.

It is for this reason that Canadian support cannot be guaranteed and should not be expected.

Your wrong, I did not decide to use up my vacation time in afgan because i thought it was a good cause, I'm here because our Nation "CANADA" decided it was a noble cause and sent me here to carry out the wishes of the Canadian people. As a soldier i would hoped that the Canadian people would have debated the pros and cons prior to deciding to send soldiers into a war zone. So yes i expect that the majority of Canadians should support the mission. And if they did not support sending us over there they should have done something to stop the deployment before the lifes of our young soldiers were lost.

Are you saying that you made a mistake, what do we tell those grieving families of those that have payed the ultimate sacrafice already "sorry i've changed my mind". What do we tell the people of Afgan which need us more than ever, "sorry i've changed my mind" your not worth the effort.

Me too.

I am completely fed up of being told to shut up and support our troups. Somehow, I find it vey difficult to accept "We are saving the world! We are bringing world peace! We are fighting insurgents!" and other such vacuous "mission" statements.

I refuse to believe that nations go to war for any reason greater than the almighty dollar.

Perhaps you can give us all an example on what dollar we are chasing? what is Canada's inspirations in the area.? And what would be your statement if they had struck downtown toronto.

"Get of your asses". Exactly what does that mean?

I'm not sure what your objection is. You clearly object, and feel quite strongly about it. The mission is happening...it's on...and we're currently comitted until 2009.

You are obliged to perform the mission that your civilian leadership tells you to perform. Perhaps you need to stick to that instead of using your position to put forward partisan BS. The fact that a debate is happening should be of no consequence to you. Just "grab your balls and squezze", as you say, and don't let it fret you.

I'll tell you what it means. The mission in Afgan needs more than just military assets to bring this operation to a close, it needs cash, it needs major construction efforts,and more political reforms, yes it is still early in the mission, but these are the things that need to be debated "not why' we are here in the first place. and while we waste our time debating something that should have been debated before they sent us. This is what adds fuel to the taliban cause, if they are seeing us debating the next step they will see our resolve. something that is not happening in our country.

Yes i am obliged to perform the mission that our government has sent me here to do, one that i have been performing for weeks without question,with out whinning. one that i seen some of my comrads covered in blood and torn apart, one that has seen me carry out Canada's policies and decissions via the end of a rifle. one that has seen me watch close friends of mine loaded onto a herc in a casket. I think i've more than earned my right to vioce my opinion just like every other Canadian.

As for partisan bullshit , thats your opinon one in which you are entitled. as i am. But i'm the one over here doing my part what are you doing on your end.

As for using my postion, as what a grunt in the field, who's life is directly effected by decissions that are made by our government and the people of Canada. Should i be the mindless robot you think i should be, and just be saluting and shouting yes sir...no problem sir...or could i be exericising my right as a Canadain citizen, and tax payer to speak out...I and every soldier here wants this mission to end more than anybody else, we want it to end with a country that has the same chances and oppurtunities as we have. but to do that we need Canadians to stop debating and start acting...pushing our government into taking the lead on this and end this conflict.

The fact that a debate is going on after the fact that the Canadian people have already decided to send us over here is just f**ked, it shows not just the soldiers that Canada sent over here, that Canada is not capable of making a decision and sticking to it. But it shows our enemies that we are easily persauded.

They're not mindless drones, but nor are they insightful political commentators.

How many on this board are insightful political commentators, are you one gerry, you've expressed your opinons have you not, why prohibits me from doing so. because i've signed an oath to serve my country, thus lossing any say in what happens in it.

Most troops are spouting propaganda, truth be known, and this is certainly the case here.

Propaganda in which sense of the word, that my opinions are not shared by the NDP, god bless thier soles, or the fact that i'm here right now and am seeing first hand what life in afgan is really like. here is some propaganda for you,

I had the honor of sharing my cold lunch with a Afgany girl and our interputer, she was 11 years old, one of the first things i noticed is that she had no hands, i asked her thur the interputer how she lost her hands, she explained that they had been cut off for her crimes when she was 6 years old by the taliban...her crimes were she was caught at school... not only had they cut off her hands with an axe, but had killed her father for allowing her to go to school. And whole time i tried hard not to let the tears well up in my eyes, she was excitied in telling me that she has returned to school, and the top of her class. And she had come over to tell me, thank you for making this possiable...

This is one of the reasons why i'm here, this is why i fight the taliban,and those who could maim that little girl for life. The Canadian people could learn alot from this little girl, who's brave and determined act is unwaviored by the consquences. who's only goal in life is to get an education and honor her father.

How many politions can bring that to the table ?

My whole purpose of me writing these posts is not to spread propaganda, but to educate some in the other side of the story, that is really not being told effectivly by our government or media. to give you one soldiers side of the story. So that our sacrafices that we are asked to make in this country are not in vein, but supported by all Canadians. That they actually do mean something to all canadians, we don't think ourselfs as hero's but rather doing the job that "you", that all Canadians sent us to do. Allow us to finish that job, show us your support by making afgan a safer place, a better place to live for all.

What is frustrating for us is that "we "are not being heard, that the soldiers story does not count, that actions in Canada are being taken on our behalf that really go again'st why we are here in the first place.

Soldiers are a vocal lot, and they'll be the first to say when the mission sucks or is not going well, if we can trust you the people of canada to send us on the right mission then you should have the same resolution and trust in us. And right now most if not all are saying we are making a difference.

[gerryhatrick]

Are you saying that you made a mistake, what do we tell those grieving families of those that have payed the ultimate sacrafice already "sorry i've changed my mind".

Your logic is despicable. To suggest that the mission must be adhered to in a "stay the course" fashion because anything less would sully the memory of those who died is absolutely disgusting.

[Argus]

Are you saying that you made a mistake, what do we tell those grieving families of those that have payed the ultimate sacrafice already "sorry i've changed my mind".

Your logic is despicable. To suggest that the mission must be adhered to in a "stay the course" fashion because anything less would sully the memory of those who died is absolutely disgusting.

I think sending people over on a life and death mission, and then deciding, halfway through, after dozens of people have died, that you really don't care much about that mission after all, is pretty freaking despicable too.

[Riverwind]

I think sending people over on a life and death mission, and then deciding, halfway through, after dozens of people have died, that you really don't care much about that mission after all, is pretty freaking despicable too.

I agree. But what do you do if the facts available today tell us that the mission is now hopeless? Do you ask even more people to sacrifice their lives in a hopeless task or do you honour the dead by remembering that ultimate success or failure of the mission does not in anyway take away from the worthy goals that the mission started with?

[Wilber]

Are you saying that you made a mistake, what do we tell those grieving families of those that have payed the ultimate sacrafice already "sorry i've changed my mind".

Your logic is despicable. To suggest that the mission must be adhered to in a "stay the course" fashion because anything less would sully the memory of those who died is absolutely disgusting.

Someone loyal enough to a comrade who died for something they both believed in wants to continue doing it and that is "despicable". The comment is pathetic. What exactly is your concept of loyalty Gerry?

But what do you do if the facts available today tell us that the mission is now hopeless? Do you ask even more people to sacrifice their lives in a hopeless task or do you honour the dead by remembering that ultimate success or failure of the mission does not in anyway take away from the worthy goals that the mission started with?

What facts? The people who are there don't believe it is hopeless. Many of the ones who do believe it is hopeless probably couldn't even find Afghanistan on a map before we sent troops there or at least before 9/11. When those who are there start telling us it is hopeless and they should get out, then I will believe it and that is the day we should get them out.

[Riverwind]

When those who are there start telling us it is hopeless and they should get out, then I will believe it and that is the day we should get them out.

That sounds like a reasonable benchmark - but you do acknowledge that there could come a time when we have to cut our losses and leave.

[Wilber]

When those who are there start telling us it is hopeless and they should get out, then I will believe it and that is the day we should get them out.

That sounds like a reasonable benchmark - but you do acknowledge that there could come a time when we have to cut our losses and leave.

Of course.

[Argus]

I think sending people over on a life and death mission, and then deciding, halfway through, after dozens of people have died, that you really don't care much about that mission after all, is pretty freaking despicable too.

I agree. But what do you do if the facts available today tell us that the mission is now hopeless?

As few people in the know believe the mission is hopeless we really aren't faced with that question.

[Black Dog]

The Islamowhatevers managed to learn how to fly sophisticated airplanes. It's not beyond reason they'll learn how to set off a nuclear device.

First they have to get one.

Since they don't fight like Nazis, does that make thema nything less of a threat?

Yes. The Nazi war machine was a genuine threat to western liberal democracy. In 1938, Germany had the second largest industrial base and the most powerful army in the world. That was a threat far greater than Hamas, Hizbullah, Al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, the Taliban and the mullahs in Iran combined.

[M.Dancer]

While I for one would love to see a debate on traffic safety....considering there are perhaps 100,000 times more cars on the road in the last 5 days than CNDs in afghanistan....perhaps we should limit the numbers of cars on the road for the next 5 days to 2,500 for better accuracy in analogies...or boosting our troops to 2,200,000 for a week....either or, I'm flexible.

If you wish to make a convincing argument then you should not use hyperbole. There are not "100,000 times more cars on the road" in five days. You are overstating by about 1500 percent. Also, I made the comparison for casulties over FOUR YEARS in afghanistan vs FIVE DAYS on Canadian roads to at least partially compensate for the fact that there are far more drivers in Canada than soldiers in Afghanistan, however the point was the absolute magnitude of fatalities.

100,000 x 2200CNDS in Afghan = 220,000,000

18,500,000 x 2rides x 5days = 185,000,000

not far off at all .....to show how ridiculous the analogy is. In fact there are over 18.5 million vehicles in Canada, and over a 5 day period..each being on the road, say twice per day...well, perhaps now you will get it....

[Figleaf]

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Edited July 21, 2007 by Figleaf

[Figleaf]

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Edited July 21, 2007 by Figleaf

[Army Guy]

Gerryhatrick

Your logic is despicable. To suggest that the mission must be adhered to in a "stay the course" fashion because anything less would sully the memory of those who died is absolutely disgusting.

I think your missing the piont, Which is that Our government and people of Canada first decided that this was a noble mission, that the people of Afgan needed our help, and in order to assist them We as a nation were told there was going to be a price to pay for that assistance be it in cash and in lives of our soldiers...The nation agree, to help and to the price...What has changed in that time?

Now if you put yourself in my boots, for a second, picture yourself at a ramp cerimony in which you are loading good friends that have payed that price with there lives, into a herc. Then that same day, read the headlines splashed over every Canadian paper, that a majority of Canadians don't believe we should be here in Afgan ,and that the NDP party is using thier deaths to promote thier standings in the polls, when they themselfs agreed to sending us over here.

So now you spend some time reflecting on the days events and ask yourself "why". and soon you become angry that your lost comrads may have died defending ideals that the Canadian people no longer consider a worth while cause or a hopless cause...You also ask what do they (the Canadian people) know that we the soldiers do not. And what info are they making this decision with...

Because this is my second tour here in Afgan and despite everything that the media is reporting things are changing for the better, yes it is painfully slow, but it is still there, we are making a differance. We seen the same things in Bosina which took over 12 years to get to the place it is now, even now Bosina still has NATO troops in it. Nobody wrote that mission off and it cost the lives of over 25 Cdns.

Just because they've put their lives on the line they don't get a free pass.

A soldier in Afghanistan holds no special knowledge that allows him to chastise the rest of us over holding a debate. How about that "condescending attitude", no problem there?

Your right, i have no special rights for being a soldier, but rather i hold the same rights and freedoms as every other Canadian citizen and tax payer.

And a soldier does know more about Afgan and the situation here than the avg Canadian. It's part of our 6 month work up training, were are given indepth lectures on Afgan history,traits, customs,government workings, tribal history, Language training, on top of studing our enemies tactics , history, traits ,customs etc. I may be no expert but i'm sure i'm qualified to talk about the issue.

Here is the problem AGAIN, debate was suppose to happen before Canadians sent us over there, not after, unless things have changed so drastically that we need to rethink our postion. But those that want this debate are spouting things like it is getting to costly, in terms of lives lost..., we are not winning...the russians could'nt do it what makes us think we can, the polls say it's not a good cause, etc etc.... explain why we should not be here ? What has changed since we first arrived.

Or are just good at picking my posts apart. without giving a valid reason why?

[rover1]

Army Guy raises some interesting and valid points. There should indeed have been a serious debate in Canada before sending troops. It should be understood that the Afghanistan commitment was, to a degree, a trade off to keep the Americans at bay, so to speak, after our refusal to join the Iraq project, and so not much debate was allowed, or would have been taken seriously by the government. This isn't sufficient excuse, but we as Canadians have never been very good at 'holding the government's feet to the fire'. I hope that Army Guy is at least partly satisfied with the debate which seems to be going now, late in the game as it may be.

[M.Dancer]

There was a debate. It was a good one. There was also a vote. The motion carried.

What some want now is another debate....to show off their wondeful powers of rhetoric before the next election.....some think their are votes to be had on the backs of Canadian soldiers.....

[rover1]

Well, I meant amongst the Canadian Public. I realise that there was a debate in Parliament.

[M.Dancer]

You mean like...ummm...here?

[Argus]

There was a debate. It was a good one. There was also a vote. The motion carried.

What some want now is another debate....to show off their wondeful powers of rhetoric

You're mistaken. We already had another debate. Now they want still ANOTHER debate. Perhaps we could have one a month.