Gay priests tie the civil knot

[betsy]

Yes, it just so happens I am. Are you a christian? Are you gay?

Here is some information for you and those who bring up wacky Old Testament laws. Christianity is not living under the old testament dispensation anymore. When Christ was crucified, it ushered in the new covenant of the new testament. Only a very few don't believe Christ was the Son of God and still follow Old Testament law.

By the way, the New Testament still speaks against homosexuality.

And may I add, Christ upheld the marriage between a MAN and a WOMAN. Did He not join in the celebration of marriage where he performed one of His miracles by turning water into wine?

And Fourth Commandment of God, "Honor thy FATHER AND thy MOTHER." It didn't say , "Honor thy Parents!"

[betsy]

Only God can judge their actions, not others in the Church of England.

Only God can make the final judgment.

But the Church can judge whether the action goes against their faith or belief.

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:1-2

Are you serious?

If we go by your interpretation...there wouldn't be any laws at all!

Read my statement again. "....the church can judge whether the ACTION goes AGAINST THEIR FAITH or belief."

Of course the Church knows what is against its belief! IT IS THE CHURCH's responsibility to bring people to GOD!

[gc1765]

Only God can judge their actions, not others in the Church of England.

Only God can make the final judgment.

But the Church can judge whether the action goes against their faith or belief.

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:1-2

Are you serious?

If we go by your interpretation...there wouldn't be any laws at all!

Read my statement again. "....the church can judge whether the ACTION goes AGAINST THEIR FAITH or belief."

Of course the Church knows what is against its belief! IT IS THE CHURCH's responsibility to bring people to GOD!

Exactly my point. If we interpret the bible literally, there would be no laws. Only God could issue punishment.

Once again, if we take a literal interpretation of the bible, then no, they can not judge what is and what is not a sin, and therefore can not judge what is and what is not against their beliefs.

[betsy]

See my post above, and you'll see how the church has swayed with the times. How many people are being stoned to death in Canada?

The punishments were quite severe in the old testament. One minute you're going about your business...and the next thing you know, you're a pillar of salt!

But mostly the sins or the unacceptable actions mostly remain the same between the old and the new.

So far, Christ and the New Testament STILL do not condone homosexuality.

Unless there is another testament revising this.... as Christians, we can only abide by it, and try our hardest to follow the teachings of Christ.

[gc1765]

The punishments were quite severe in the old testament. One minute you're going about your business...and the next thing you know, you're a pillar of salt!

Yes, so why is it OK to ignore the punishments that God specifically commanded us to uphold but not OK to ignore the parts about homosexuality?

But mostly the sins or the unacceptable actions mostly remain the same between the old and the new.

So far, Christ and the New Testament STILL do not condone homosexuality.

Can you show me where it says homosexuality is wrong the in the New Testament?

[sharkman]

As far as punishment goes, Jesus himself took a whip and drove the money changers out of the temple. We are to judge people's actions, but not their salvation.

Yes but that was Jesus doing the punishment. As it says in the New Testament, only Jesus/God may punish as they are the only ones without sin. If you believe everything in the New Testament, then you must believe that only Jesus/God may punish people, but I think that goes contrary to what the vast majority of Christians believe.

I believe it is Peter who lays out how to treat someone who is openly living in a sinful lifestyle in the church. You go to that person to correct them first in private(Of course only those who really love would be chosen to do this). If if the sinful person still persists, they are to be admonished in front of the congregation. If still no change, they must be not allowed to belong to the church. How's that for casting stones.

Can you show me the reference in the bible where it says this? Also, can you show me where it says in the New Testament that homosexuality is a sin? Thanks.

Here's some references on what I was refering to. Matthew 18:15-17 deal with someone who sins in the church. My memory was slightly off as this was concerning sinning in general.

On homosexuality being wrong, Romans 1:26-27 spells out that it's wrong.

[betsy]

As far as punishment goes, Jesus himself took a whip and drove the money changers out of the temple. We are to judge people's actions, but not their salvation.

Yes but that was Jesus doing the punishment. As it says in the New Testament, only Jesus/God may punish as they are the only ones without sin. If you believe everything in the New Testament, then you must believe that only Jesus/God may punish people, but I think that goes contrary to what the vast majority of Christians believe.

Jesus had given Peter that authority/responsibility to continue the work and spread the words of Christ: Upon this rock I build My Church.

But what punishments are you referring to nowadays being done by the church?

[sharkman]

I suggest you pick up the Bible once in a while, if you approach it with an open heart, God will show you what you need to know.

What about this passage from the New Testament?

Titus 1:10-16

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision(Jews):

Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Do you believe that?

Yes, I believe it just as I believe passages in the Bible that warn against wrong doers who are gentile.

[jdobbin]

Yes, I believe it just as I believe passages in the Bible that warn against wrong doers who are gentile.

What does that passage mean to you and how do you practice it in life?

[betsy]

I suggest you pick up the Bible once in a while, if you approach it with an open heart, God will show you what you need to know.

What about this passage from the New Testament?

Titus 1:10-16

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision(Jews):

Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Do you believe that?

"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, SPECIALLY they of the circumcision(Jews):"

This passage speaks of everyone (not only Jews).

Is it not vain of man to think he can manipulate and change the dictates of God?

Are we not deceivers if we can confuse and have others believe in what we spout that they in turn go against the dictates of God?

Is it not unruly to cause havoc, dissension and confusion, having others lose faith in His church...and turning away from God?

[sharkman]

Yes, I believe it just as I believe passages in the Bible that warn against wrong doers who are gentile.

What does that passage mean to you and how do you practice it in life?

What is this, 20 questions? It that your pet passage you trot out to try and 'get' someone who professes belief in the whole bible? There are many passages that point out wrong doing by Gentiles, Greeks, Romans, and yes, Jews. Those were specific instances and warn me that when a person of any race or culture is in error I need to guard myself that I don't fall in that area. Like Mel Gibson, for instance.

[betsy]

But the Church can judge whether the action goes against their faith or belief.

It will be interesting to see if the Church of England treats them the same as it would treat a heterosexual priest who commits fornication.

That's for the Church to decide. Whether we agree with what the Church says or not....it is still considered the rep of God.

If one finds himself at odds with the rules of a church, then why not start their own religion? That's how the Protestant church came to be, if I'm not mistaken.

Or why not join other churches that conformed with the wishes of humans. Some church condone and accept homosexual marriage.

Why not just believe what you choose to believe and worship on your own time? Why do you have to join a church?

Well it's up to the individual to do what he wants...anyway, he's already doing what he wants (even though it goes against his church) !

It just behooves me why on earth priests (of all people), who should know better would not only insist in doing what is against the belief...but also choose to challenge and cause this pain for the church.

[gc1765]

Here's some references on what I was refering to. Matthew 18:15-17 deal with someone who sins in the church. My memory was slightly off as this was concerning sinning in general.

On homosexuality being wrong, Romans 1:26-27 spells out that it's wrong.

Thanks for the references.

The first reference doesn't say anything about not being allowed to belong to the church, it just says "treat them as a pagan (or heathen depending on the version) or a tax collector". I imagine that only God could cast the first stone against a pagan or tax collector.

As for the second reference, if I'm understanding this correctly, it seems that God made them homosexuals as punishment for not worshipping God and then punished them for being homosexuals? Am I reading that right?

Are there any references where Jesus himself condones homosexuality?

[betsy]

Exactly my point. If we interpret the bible literally, there would be no laws. Only God could issue punishment.

Once again, if we take a literal interpretation of the bible, then no, they can not judge what is and what is not a sin, and therefore can not judge what is and what is not against their beliefs.

Then why did God give us the 10 Commandments if there would be no laws? And He placed a lot of importance on it!

And why did He tell us about "sins" if we cannot even know what is and what is not a sin?

And with Christ...He, too referred to KNOWING how to get to paradise. "I AM THE WAY..."

To know is having to use one's judgement.

[jdobbin]

"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, SPECIALLY they of the circumcision(Jews):"

This passage speaks of everyone (not only Jews).

Is it not vain of man to think he can manipulate and change the dictates of God?

Are we not deceivers if we can confuse and have others believe in what we spout that they in turn go against the dictates of God?

Is it not unruly to cause havoc, dissension and confusion, having others lose faith in His church...and turning away from God?

However, the New Testament suggests that is especially Jews.

[gc1765]

Jesus had given Peter that authority/responsibility to continue the work and spread the words of Christ: Upon this rock I build My Church.

Yes, I know he gave Peter the responsibility to continue the church, but did he give Peter, and for that matter all humans, the power to punish sinners?

But what punishments are you referring to nowadays being done by the church?

I don't think I referred to any punishments being done by the church. I said that according to the bible, only Jesus (he without sin) has the authority to punish.

[jdobbin]

What is this, 20 questions? It that your pet passage you trot out to try and 'get' someone who professes belief in the whole bible? There are many passages that point out wrong doing by Gentiles, Greeks, Romans, and yes, Jews. Those were specific instances and warn me that when a person of any race or culture is in error I need to guard myself that I don't fall in that area. Like Mel Gibson, for instance.

There are other passages in the New Testament that could get someone into trouble if you praticed them in real life. I was just curious which ones you practice and which ones you don't.

[betsy]

"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, SPECIALLY they of the circumcision(Jews):"

This passage speaks of everyone (not only Jews).

Is it not vain of man to think he can manipulate and change the dictates of God?

Are we not deceivers if we can confuse and have others believe in what we spout that they in turn go against the dictates of God?

Is it not unruly to cause havoc, dissension and confusion, having others lose faith in His church...and turning away from God?

However, the New Testament suggests that is especially Jews.

But it also said there are those that are not Jews.

[betsy]

Jesus had given Peter that authority/responsibility to continue the work and spread the words of Christ: Upon this rock I build My Church.

Yes, I know he gave Peter the responsibility to continue the church, but did he give Peter, and for that matter all humans, the power to punish sinners?

But what punishments are you referring to nowadays being done by the church?

I don't think I referred to any punishments being done by the church. I said that according to the bible, only Jesus (he without sin) has the authority to punish.

I don't think he gave humans the power to punish sinners. He gave us all the responsibility to spread the words of God.

And several passages in the New Testament, we are warned of being deceived by Satan.

[sharkman]

Here's some references on what I was refering to. Matthew 18:15-17 deal with someone who sins in the church. My memory was slightly off as this was concerning sinning in general.

On homosexuality being wrong, Romans 1:26-27 spells out that it's wrong.

Thanks for the references.

The first reference doesn't say anything about not being allowed to belong to the church, it just says "treat them as a pagan (or heathen depending on the version) or a tax collector". I imagine that only God could cast the first stone against a pagan or tax collector.

As for the second reference, if I'm understanding this correctly, it seems that God made them homosexuals as punishment for not worshipping God and then punished them for being homosexuals? Am I reading that right?

Are there any references where Jesus himself condones homosexuality?

I usually refrain from getting into these discussions because in the end, they really don't help anybody. This type of communication is poorly suited for such discussions in my view. I can't tell if you are goading me or really think what you've put above, for instance.

It does not say God made them homosexuals. It says he gave them up to their vile passions. This means they had developed vile passions and God stopped protecting them from the effects of these passions.

At any rate, you don't seem familar with what is infered with mentioning heathens and tax collectors and what place they had in that society. They were shunned and avoided. I don't know if that means they were put out of the church. Like I said earlier on this point, my memory was a little inaccurate.

Edit: The way you used condone above, it seemed like you meant does Jesus say anywhere homosexuality is wrong. But condone doesn't mean that, so I'm confused.

[betsy]

Here's some references on what I was refering to. Matthew 18:15-17 deal with someone who sins in the church. My memory was slightly off as this was concerning sinning in general.

On homosexuality being wrong, Romans 1:26-27 spells out that it's wrong.

Thanks for the references.

The first reference doesn't say anything about not being allowed to belong to the church, it just says "treat them as a pagan (or heathen depending on the version) or a tax collector". I imagine that only God could cast the first stone against a pagan or tax collector.

As for the second reference, if I'm understanding this correctly, it seems that God made them homosexuals as punishment for not worshipping God and then punished them for being homosexuals? Am I reading that right?

Are there any references where Jesus himself condones homosexuality?

I think "heathen" means someone with no religion.

[gc1765]

Exactly my point. If we interpret the bible literally, there would be no laws. Only God could issue punishment.

Once again, if we take a literal interpretation of the bible, then no, they can not judge what is and what is not a sin, and therefore can not judge what is and what is not against their beliefs.

Then why did God give us the 10 Commandments if there would be no laws? And He placed a lot of importance on it!

If you believe what I am saying about only God/Jesus may punish, then the 10 commandments were given to us not so that we can apply the commandments here on earth in the form of laws, but so that God can use them to judge us. It's not that humans can't be punished, it's that only God/Jesus can make that punishment.

If you don't believe me and you believe that humans may punish eachother, then you must believe in the punishments laid out in the Old Testament, ie stoning to death.

Also, the 10 commandments are in the Old Testament. Someone else on this board has pointed out that laws in the Old Testament do not apply. If we assume they do apply, then we must assume that the appropriate punishment for them also applies. So I would then ask you, do you believe that people should be stoned to death as in the examples I have previously shown?

And why did He tell us about "sins" if we cannot even know what is and what is not a sin?

He told us what is and what is not a sin so that we can abstain from doing these things, he did not tell us what a sin is so that we could judge sins in others.

And with Christ...He, too referred to KNOWING how to get to paradise. "I AM THE WAY..."

To know is having to use one's judgement.

Christ used his judgement? Isn't that what I'm trying to say, that only Jesus/God can judge?

[betsy]

He told us what is and what is not a sin so that we can abstain from doing these things, he did not tell us what a sin is so that we could judge sins in others.

In other words, if someone killed somebody...I should not tell him to ask for God's forgiveness since he's committed a sin?

But I think I get what you're saying, since Christ also reminded us about not seeing the pebble in our own eye.

[gc1765]

I usually refrain from getting into these discussions because in the end, they really don't help anybody. This type of communication is poorly suited for such discussions in my view. I can't tell if you are goading me or really think what you've put above, for instance.

If you don't want to discuss with me that is fine, but yes I do really think what I wrote.

Edit: The way you used condone above, it seemed like you meant does Jesus say anywhere homosexuality is wrong. But condone doesn't mean that, so I'm confused.

My mistake. I meant to say condemn. Sometimes I get those words confused

[gc1765]

In other words, if someone killed somebody...I should not tell him to ask for God's forgiveness since he's committed a sin?

Well that's a good question, and it seems that there are many contradictions like that in the bible. So actually I don't know the answer.