Afghanistan

[Wilber]

They were right, it has been a long occupation but someone had to do it or the North would have tried again. The American presence has provided the same result as their presence in Western Europe during the Cold War. Peace in the region.

It is hard to say what would have happened if the U.S. had left after the armistice. The domino theory was used about Vietnam. It really didn't play out that way.

That's the whole point of deterrence isn't it. If it works, nothing happens.

If you fly into Seoul on a clear night the border is obvious. South of the line is a brightly lit country and north of it is a black hole. If there was ever a country that could use nuclear power for electricity generation, North Korea is it, instead they are using their resources for the bomb and delivery systems.

[myata]

... ability to kill and/or enslave the West.

You seriously believe in it, do you?

[jdobbin]

I opposed staying in Viet Nam. However, shortly before Viet Nam fell, Comabodia fell. Shortly after, Laos fell, and Burma fell under hostile, though not necessarily Communist, control. Thailand held only because of the threat of military action by the US, as exemplified by the Mayaguez rescue. In short, our surrender was not as consequence free as you imply.

The United States and North Vietnam had already destabilized Cambodia and Laos from years of fighting wars using their countries as a base of operations. Cambodia fell under Communist influence in 1970 while the United States was already involved in Vietnam. Can't really be a domino, can it? The U.S. bombed the hell out of Cambodia and invaded as well which only intensified the popularity of the Communists.

Vietnam invaded Cambodia to stop Cambodian incursions. Vietnam got promptly stepped on for years after that. Cambodia became Vietnam's Vietmam.

Vietnam also invaded Laos in 1968 because the United States used it as a base to attack it. The war last until 1975 when the Communists eventually threw out the last of the U.S. supported royals.

It wasn't so much a Communist domino theory as countries overthrowing colonialism and destabilizing foreign forces.

The consequences of the United States leaving Indo-China were very light in the end, don't you think? Certainly, it would have been more costly to stay.

[Argus]

The consequences of the United States leaving Indo-China were very light in the end, don't you think?

Not for the hundreds of thousands executed, drowned or killed in re-education camps.

It was light for us, of course. But then, the communists didn't like to use these places as a base from which to launch terrorist attacks on western nations.

[jdobbin]

Not for the hundreds of thousands executed, drowned or killed in re-education camps.

It was light for us, of course. But then, the communists didn't like to use these places as a base from which to launch terrorist attacks on western nations.

In the end, the United States and the rest of the world could only let those countries do what they wanted to do to themselves. As many critics have said, you don't go picking a fight with a country that wants to fight itself. It would have been like trying to intervene in the American civil war.

I don't want a nation to think it can get away with being a base for terrorism. Personally, I think they those bases should be hammered. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan and the pursuit of Osama bin Laden. If the Americans had not be diverted by Iraq, I think Afghanistan would have been over by now.

We'll never know.

Yesterday, Don Martin is the National Post said that Harper is trapped in Afghanistan now and it is a no win situation for him.

And while Lorne Gunter has given support for the war, he said he finds it distasteful that the Karzai government is just as extremist as the Taliban in many ways.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/columni...15-52ff96d2b6d2

[Wilber]

The consequences of the United States leaving Indo-China were very light in the end, don't you think? Certainly, it would have been more costly to stay.

Remember these folks?

Boat People

[jdobbin]

That's the whole point of deterrence isn't it. If it works, nothing happens.

If you fly into Seoul on a clear night the border is obvious. South of the line is a brightly lit country and north of it is a black hole. If there was ever a country that could use nuclear power for electricity generation, North Korea is it, instead they are using their resources for the bomb and delivery systems.

I don't think that 40,000 U.S. troops is as much of a threat as the the threat of a nuclear bomb being dropped on them is. That's just a guess though.

Even the U.S. military has said they probably couldn't hold off the a huge onslaught without using a bomb.

[jdobbin]

The consequences of the United States leaving Indo-China were very light in the end, don't you think? Certainly, it would have been more costly to stay.

Remember these folks?

Boat People

That should have read consequences for the Americans rather than Vietnam.

You would have stayed in Vietnam?

[Wilber]

That's the whole point of deterrence isn't it. If it works, nothing happens.

If you fly into Seoul on a clear night the border is obvious. South of the line is a brightly lit country and north of it is a black hole. If there was ever a country that could use nuclear power for electricity generation, North Korea is it, instead they are using their resources for the bomb and delivery systems.

I don't think that 40,000 U.S. troops is as much of a threat as the the threat of a nuclear bomb being dropped on them is. That's just a guess though.

Even the U.S. military has said they probably couldn't hold off the a huge onslaught without using a bomb.

That's true but the fact that there were 40,000 American troops there let the North know what they could expect. The South's army is around 600,000 I believe. 40,000 is about 60% of Canada's total military.

[jdobbin]

That's true but the fact that there were 40,000 American troops there let the North know what they could expect. The South's army is around 600,000 I believe. 40,000 is about 60% of Canada's total military.

I wonder how many more years they will have to stay there.

[jbg]

The consequences of the United States leaving Indo-China were very light in the end, don't you think?

Not for the hundreds of thousands executed, drowned or killed in re-education camps.

It was light for us, of course. But then, the communists didn't like to use these places as a base from which to launch terrorist attacks on western nations.

Not particularly light. One of my pet theories is that the Teheran embassy takeover, the Marine Barracks attacks, the Lockerbie attack, the two World Trade Center attacks, et. ano. would not have happened if the US remained feared.

[jdobbin]

Not particularly light. One of my pet theories is that the Teheran embassy takeover, the Marine Barracks attacks, the Lockerbie attack, the two World Trade Center attacks, et. ano. would not have happened if the US remained feared.

So you believe that your opposition to Vietnam was now wrong?

[Riverwind]

One of my pet theories is that the Teheran embassy takeover, the Marine Barracks attacks, the Lockerbie attack, the two World Trade Center attacks, et. ano. would not have happened if the US remained feared.

Terrorism was created by the global television media which only started to emerge as a significant influence in the 1970s. The fact that the the US withdrew from Vietnam around the same time is a co-incidence and had no effect on the rise of terrorism.

Furthermore, we know from Russian experiences in Afghanistan and Chechnya that "staying the course" does not lead to less terrorism - if anything, it leads to more terrorism.

[jdobbin]

Terrorism was created by the global television media which only started to emerge as a significant influence in the 1970s. The fact that the the US withdrew from Vietnam around the same time is a co-incidence and had no effect on the rise of terrorism.

Furthermore, we know from Russian experiences in Afghanistan and Chechnya that "staying the course" does not lead to less terrorism - if anything, it leads to more terrorism.

Terrorism goes back even longer than TV. Some say it goes back to the Jacobin terrorists of 1795 in France.

Perhaps if the United States had intervened there, there may not have been a September 11.

[jdobbin]

Ignatieff says troops need to stay in Afghanistan.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/06092006/2/nati...al-promise.html

[jbg]

Not particularly light. One of my pet theories is that the Teheran embassy takeover, the Marine Barracks attacks, the Lockerbie attack, the two World Trade Center attacks, et. ano. would not have happened if the US remained feared.

So you believe that your opposition to Vietnam was now wrong?

In 20/20 hindsight, we should have either gone in to win, or not gone in at all. Also, I will admit that it was selfish. I turned 15 during 1972,l the spring of my Freshman year of High School. I was selfishly worried about seeing action. Frankly, much of the "anti-war" movement was just that, selfishness. And the "demonstrations" and "campus sit-ins" were exquisitely timed to disrupt exams. Many of these "college students" were living on Mom and Dad's money, not really studying, and creating a fine mess on campus at the tail end of the academic year was a sure-fire way of cancelling exams.

[jbg]

Terrorism was created by the global television media which only started to emerge as a significant influence in the 1970s. The fact that the the US withdrew from Vietnam around the same time is a co-incidence and had no effect on the rise of terrorism.

Frankly, good point. I'll have to think about that before giving a snap response. I wish others could sometimes do the same.

[jdobbin]

In 20/20 hindsight, we should have either gone in to win, or not gone in at all. Also, I will admit that it was selfish. I turned 15 during 1972,l the spring of my Freshman year of High School. I was selfishly worried about seeing action. Frankly, much of the "anti-war" movement was just that, selfishness. And the "demonstrations" and "campus sit-ins" were exquisitely timed to disrupt exams. Many of these "college students" were living on Mom and Dad's money, not really studying, and creating a fine mess on campus at the tail end of the academic year was a sure-fire way of cancelling exams.

There was certainly a lot of selfishness back then. But there was also a lot of people looking for a sound reason for fighting in Vietnam and the disapoointment people felt in their government is supporting the corrupt and brutal government of South Vietnam made it hard to feel like this compared in any way to World War 2.

[Wilber]

I wonder how many more years they will have to stay there.

Who knows but if it contributes to peace in the region it's a good thing and worth doing. Too bad a lot of the free world won't give them much credit for it.

[jbg]

I wonder how many more years they will have to stay there.

Who knows but if it contributes to peace in the region it's a good thing and worth doing. Too bad a lot of the free world won't give them much credit for it.

Note - US forces are still occupyng Germany to some extent.

[jdobbin]

Who knows but if it contributes to peace in the region it's a good thing and worth doing. Too bad a lot of the free world won't give them much credit for it.

Oh, they'll give the soldiers credit. They just might not reward the government that sent them there.

[jdobbin]

Note - US forces are still occupyng Germany to some extent.

Certainly not for Germany's security now but as halfway point for wars fought round the world.

[Argus]

del

[Argus]

OTTAWA (CP) - Recent combat deaths in Afghanistan have shocked many Canadians, but analysts say the country was warned a year ago that this could happen.

Last fall, as the military prepared for their new mission in Afghanistan, both Gen. Rick Hillier, the chief of the defence staff, and Bill Graham, then the Liberal defence minister, delivered a number of speeches warning about a tough mission and telling Canadians to expect casualties.

"They certainly told people that this was going to be a different type of mission and people either weren't listening or didn't pay attention," said David Bercuson director of the Centre for Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary.

Warnings about mission were there to see

[jbg]

Note - US forces are still occupyng Germany to some extent.

Certainly not for Germany's security now but as halfway point for wars fought round the world.

I'm not so sure, frankly. I suspect we trust the Germans as far as we can throw them. Europe was at war for 1000 years before V-E day, with some interruptions. I don't think the US and UK were in any mood for a resumption. Nor was the USSR, which took invasions from, at various times, Germany and France.