Afghanistan

[Canadian Blue]

a shift back to a more constructive, peacekeeping role with genuine reconstruction and training of Afghanistan soldiers and policemen.

We are already doing that, unfortunately people back here at home fail to see that throwing candy at people who would like nothing more than to see our soldiers dead isn't going to work.

And don't any Harperite try to say that it was the Liberals who sent our forces to Afghanistan because Steve changed the mission to a military agenda and only he wears the mission now.

I'm no Harperite, and I remember being told in the fall of 2005 in St Jean that we would be involved in a ground war with mounting casaulties. But then again maybe people in the military have no clue whats going on. As for changing it to a military agenda, when was it not a military agenda, last time I checked we had military people there. The Liberal's knew exactly what was going to happen, same with CDS Hillier who was warning Canadian's of mounting casaulties in the month's to come. Unfortunately, I think that the facts are gonna get in the way of your irrational hatred of Harper.

Steve extended the mission after only a two-hour debate in the Commons and a 149-145 vote which does not give him carte blanche to stay in Afghanistan as long as he needs a handy photo-op.

If the opposition feels so strongly about it they should bring in a non-confidence motion.

By the way, get over your hatred of Stephen Harper, the political hackery is getting to be a bit much.

[jdobbin]

If the opposition feels so strongly about it they should bring in a non-confidence motion.

The NDP nixed the 2009 deadline so basically there is no deadline now.

[jdobbin]

British soldier killed in latest offensive.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...70526?hub=World

KABUL, Afghanistan -- An explosion during a fight with Taliban militants killed a British soldier and wounded four in southern Afghanistan Saturday, while U.S.-led coalition and Afghan forces detained a Taliban commander and two suspected al Qaeda militants in the east, officials said.

British troops using artillery, mortar and small arms fire destroyed a Taliban stronghold on the outskirts of Garmsir in Helmand province, Britain's Ministry of Defense said. During the operation, an explosion killed one soldier and wounded four, including three seriously who had to be evacuated by helicopter.

We'll have to see how this affects the resolve of the British in Afghanistan. Already the British are asking for more U.N. involvement in Afghanistan.

[jdobbin]

Here's what Scott Taylor has to say about Afghanistan.

http://www.wellandtribune.ca/webapp/sitepa...torial&classif=

The one point of consensus among all these disparate stakeholders is that the foreign troops must be pulled out of Afghanistan within the next two years.

Even those high-ranking Afghan security officials who know that their tenuous hold on power depends on the presence of NATO forces know that the window for success is fast slamming shut. They believe that creating a self-sufficient Afghan army by spring 2009 and the subsequent withdrawal of foreign troops is the key to ultimate victory.

I think he is right that if troops are there beyond 2009 that things are likely to be worse rather than better.

[Jean_Poutine]

As it should. We shouldn't be callous with our soldiers lives, the work they are doing is important and dangerous. They should know we understand that.

I think Canadians know this and that is why they want them home as soon as 2009.

They want them home because the work is important? Or they want them home because the work is dangerous?

Or is it they are afraid of upsetting Osama?

Or is it that jdobbin is speaking for people he doesn't know in an attempt to add weight to his opinion.

Personally, I hate hearing about soldiers being wounded or killed, but I don't see how people can say they want the troops out of Afghanistan because they support them while ignoring what the troops have to say about it. Here's what a soldier had to say after surviving an attack that killed six other soldiers:

"The only way you can actually be a soldier or to be true to your brothers, is to soldier on, once something like this happens."

"I'm a soldier, so if the government says we're in Afghanistan, then I'm in Afghanistan. I support the mission, and I did see the good, I've seen all the good we're doing there."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Here are some comments from Brig.-Gen. David Fraser and another soldier:

It's a frustrating war for the soldiers to fight, acknowledged Fraser, but their commitment to the mission remains as strong as ever.

"Soldiers are doing what they believe in. After 26 years in this force soldiers, airmen and seamen tell me what they believe, and they don't lie," said Fraser. "Every soldier over there, he or she tells me they're doing what they believe over there."

"When we were there last year there was a huge push to dislodge NATO," said Maj. Chris Adams, the incoming commander of B Squadron, Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) armoured regiment based in Edmonton.

"We've killed off a number of key guys over the last two years, which is going to allow us to expand the bubble around those development zones," he said.

There are no surprises ahead for Canadian soldiers in the next couple of years said Adams, who will be commanding the squadron of new Leopard 2 tanks when he returns to Afghanistan next February.

"I was there for Mountain Thrust, Medusa and the whole nine yards. It does start to get a little nerve-racking," he said.

"But professionally speaking, I really do want to go back again. My last job was a desk job and what I was trained to do is what I am about to do - lead a squadron of tanks in combat," said Adams. "It's an opportunity of a lifetime."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070526/...an_cda_progress

I think an honest person would be able to acknowledge the good as well as the bad and take what the soldiers have to say into consideration. I understand people raising concerns about things that are happening, and the loss of life, but I don't understand people that make spewing pessimism a daily routine.

[runningdog]

Hearing what the soldiers have to say is important, but if they had problems with the mission, would they speak out or would they just remain quiet about so as not to lower "team" moral? If a soldier complained about the mission to the media, what effect do you think that would have on his/her future in the military?

Dissenting opinions get punished. Just ask any Conservative party member who has openly disagreed with Mr. Harper.

[jdobbin]

Or is it that jdobbin is speaking for people he doesn't know in an attempt to add weight to his opinion.

Personally, I hate hearing about soldiers being wounded or killed, but I don't see how people can say they want the troops out of Afghanistan because they support them while ignoring what the troops have to say about it. Here's what a soldier had to say after surviving an attack that killed six other soldiers:

I think an honest person would be able to acknowledge the good as well as the bad and take what the soldiers have to say into consideration. I understand people raising concerns about things that are happening, and the loss of life, but I don't understand people that make spewing pessimism a daily routine.

I think I was referencing what people have said when polled in Canada on the subject.

Scott Taylor is a former soldier and he has said that Canada should get out of Afghanistan by 2009 because our presence there becomes the focus of attacks rather than the focus of stability. His thoughts are in a link in this thread.

[Canadian Blue]

Hearing what the soldiers have to say is important, but if they had problems with the mission, would they speak out or would they just remain quiet about so as not to lower "team" moral? If a soldier complained about the mission to the media, what effect do you think that would have on his/her future in the military?

Dissenting opinions get punished. Just ask any Conservative party member who has openly disagreed with Mr. Harper.

I'm fairly certain a large majority of the military is in support of the mission. In general soldiers can't speak out about the mission to the media, whether it be positive or negative.

[Army Guy]

hiti:

Afghanistan does not want to be rebuilt in Canada's image.

Most Canadians don't know what the typical Afganis wants nor do they care, perhaps you can give us an example of "we" are building afgan in our image, or is giving them a elected government , clean water, irrigation ditchs for thier crops, new schools, hospitals or new paved hyways to improve commerance to much for the average Canadian to wrap thier minds around.

If we take our 2,500 soldiers from Kandahar in 2009 as planned and shift our soldiers efforts to reconstruction, or to policing, we will hardly be dooming the mission.

NATO will be forced to find another country to volunteer its soldiers to serve as target practice for the Taliban.

And what are you basing this on, Are you experianced in these type of missions, do you have another solution that has not been tried. How many soldiers has Canada lost already doing reconstruction work?

Have you been following the news , any NATO soldier is a target in Afgan, it does not matter if your doing construction or directing traffic, you will be targeted.

It's actually kind of disturbing that the only ones complaining about our combat role is civilians , and not the soldiers actually doing the job.

There is no doubting that Harper sincerely believes in this war: It is hardly a vote-getting gambit.

But that doesn't mean he is right.

Nor do you make a compelling case for us to pull out.

I totally agree with Susan Riley. Steve just wants to have an excuse to strut around in a helmet and a vest (flak jacket) and play Bush. Buying 100 Leopard tanks for the military is overkill considering that at present we only have 17 tanks. And lying about the cost of the tanks is typical Steve.

Now this comment is typical of the old Liberal Canadians, who would be quite happy with 3 soldiers in our military one in each element, who's sole job would be on rememberance day in Ottawa. You make it sound like your proud of the fact that as one of the largest nations in the western world we only have a small amount of tanks. the result of to many years of neglect , most of which where at the hands of the liberals. Yes leaving our nation defenseless is something to be proud of.

I'm just curious how many tanks the swiss have, and for a neutral country why would they need so many ?

We are not doing our job in Afghanistan. We are threatening the county and it's population with the killing of civilians and the burning of crops. Canada should get back to it's original mission........ a shift back to a more constructive, peacekeeping role with genuine reconstruction and training of Afghanistan soldiers and policemen.

That is a very bold statement, one could expect something like that out of Catchme, perhaps it's all the rave at the liberal conventions, or peace rallies, i'm not sure... but it's insulting to our soldiers and thier level of commitment to this mission the same mission that are nation gave us on day one...it also speaks volumes of your support for our soldiers, don't give me that crap that you support them by wanting them home, and then talking out of the side of your month "liberal style" and make false accusations about them... but then again you have proof that this is actually going on , that our soldiers are actually threatening civilians with death, and burning of crops , which you failed to mention is opium....

Not every Canadian has to support this mission or for that matter our soldiers, but don't sit there and insult them for having the conviction to carry out orders given to them by the majority of Canadians.

And don't any Harperite try to say that it was the Liberals who sent our forces to Afghanistan because Steve changed the mission to a military agenda and only he wears the mission now.

You do know that history is recorded right, The liberals would love for Canadians to believe they had nothing to do with Canadians in combat, and distant themselfs that they actually ordered our military into using our wpns to kill with...I'm curious to know who first sent the PPCLI battle group into the Kanadar. years before the Harper government was elected.

My piont is i call bullshit, provide me a source, one that clearly states that it was the cons who changed the mission, that it was the cons that sent us into the Kanadar region, and how they manged to do that when they were not even elected yet.

jdobbin:

It is true the Average soldier can not hold a press conferance of his own to express his opinion, but thier other ways to make his opinion heard, In afgan with so many reporters around any off the wall comment will be heard and will be reported, a good example of this is the officers comments to soldiers during the PM 's vist, "the PM is still here, and so are we get back in there".

Soldiers are very vocal and when asked they will provide you a very colorful opinion, one that is not programed or rehersed, but the truth as they see it.

As for Scott Taylor , yes he was a soldier, for a couple of years, i don't even think he got out of the country. don't get me wrong atleast he served, and he has done many things for us since his retirement. but how many soldiers have given negative remarks about the mission since it's inception....not very many...I think the proof is in the pudding , The Afgan mission is strickly volunteer, most are on thier second or third tour.

[Rue]

"Does anyone know how fast the Afghanis are in getting their military and police up to snuff to secure their own country?"

To answer your question here is an exerpt from an article by John Cotter from March 3, 2007, http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070303/...olice_reform_2;

"RCMP Staff Sgt. Alan McCambridge said that while Afghan police are keen to learn, the vast majority have never been in a classroom before and can't read or write.

He said there is a plan in the works to identify top Afghan police non-commissioned officers with good ethics and leadership skills for literacy training.

"Progress is slow because the literacy rate is so low, but when you see the pride they exhibit when they learn a new skill, that's the reward," McCambridge said Saturday.

"It is going to take years to really change the way the Afghan people look at the police as a respected profession."

A training school for recruits of the new Afghan National Auxiliary Police force is run near Kandahar Airfield by Canadian military police.

Despite the hurdles, O'Brien said the Afghan police can be reformed, but he warns change won't come quickly.

"It is going to take time and it is going to take resources and it is going to take resolve from the international community," O'Brien said.

"I would hope that the people of Canada come to understand the challenges, and not just the issues."

That appears to coincide with what most military journals are saying-that the Afghan police and army are many years away from being able to run their own country.

The pratical reality is Afghanistan if not occupied by NATO would revert back into a civil war and probably Taliban would re-emerge as the most powerful force.

[jdobbin]

It is true the Average soldier can not hold a press conferance of his own to express his opinion, but thier other ways to make his opinion heard, In afgan with so many reporters around any off the wall comment will be heard and will be reported, a good example of this is the officers comments to soldiers during the PM 's vist, "the PM is still here, and so are we get back in there".

Soldiers are very vocal and when asked they will provide you a very colorful opinion, one that is not programed or rehersed, but the truth as they see it.

As for Scott Taylor , yes he was a soldier, for a couple of years, i don't even think he got out of the country. don't get me wrong atleast he served, and he has done many things for us since his retirement. but how many soldiers have given negative remarks about the mission since it's inception....not very many...I think the proof is in the pudding , The Afgan mission is strickly volunteer, most are on thier second or third tour.

I wouldn't expect comments from any soldier while they are on the mission. That is how professional there are.

The political decisions about the war, however, are not made by soldiers. It is the politicians with the support of the electorate that have to decide the future of the deployment. At the moment, it is hard to see how Afghanistan is ever going to be able to take of itself.

Our allies are very weak in their support. MacKay once again is begging countries to help. The response is one of resounding silence.

This is beginning to look like an open ended mission.

One reason people are reluctant to give Harper a majority is because he seems to be readying for a commitment to 2012.

I am hoping that a remarkable recovery will take place but I see years and years of fight left and even after all of that, I think the country is ripe for an Islamic hardline government.

Another British soldier was killed today.

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/worl...hanistan/535347

[jdobbin]

That appears to coincide with what most military journals are saying-that the Afghan police and army are many years away from being able to run their own country.

The pratical reality is Afghanistan if not occupied by NATO would revert back into a civil war and probably Taliban would re-emerge as the most powerful force.

It might happen even if Canada is there for decades.

Does it mean a permanent presence there?

[jdobbin]

Senlis Council says CIDA isn't getting aid to Afghans.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070528/...afghan_cda_cida

The Canadian International Development Agency is making no headway in rebuilding Afghanistan and should be relieved of its duties, an international think-tank said Monday

In its latest report, the Senlis Council says the federal development agency should be replaced with a special envoy, who has the authority and money to get things done.

There certainly has to be an effective way to get aid to Afghans.

If they are ever able to take of themselves, our own agency shouldn't be an obstacle.

[jdobbin]

The Senlis Council has also surveyed Afghans.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/070528/cana...ato_afghanistan

Half of 17,000 men surveyed in April in southern Afghanistan "chillingly" said they believe the Taliban will triumph against NATO forces, a think tank said in a report Monday.

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Eighty percent of respondents also said they are preoccupied with trying to feed their families in the war-torn nation, according to the poll by The Senlis Council, an international think-tank.

The Taliban's "very clever propaganda" tells young Afghan men that NATO does not care about them, and is only concerned about waging their own war, said Norine MacDonald, founder and lead field researcher for the group.

Afghans are "worse off (now) than under Taliban" rule, she said at the opening of the council's Canadian office in Ottawa.

I wonder if Harper can answer that. Are the people worse off now in southern Afghanistan? Is aid not reaching people?

[M.Dancer]

I wonder if Harper can answer that. Are the people worse off now in southern Afghanistan? Is aid not reaching people?

Worse off in a war zone? Astonishing! We should leave now so that the whole country can become a war zone.......

[jdobbin]

Worse off in a war zone? Astonishing! We should leave now so that the whole country can become a war zone.......

How about trying to get aid to people before they all turn on us?

[M.Dancer]

Worse off in a war zone? Astonishing! We should leave now so that the whole country can become a war zone.......

How about trying to get aid to people before they all turn on us?

In a war zone.....but that would require armed soldiers.......

[jdobbin]

In a war zone.....but that would require armed soldiers.......

Armed soldier are not getting aid to the people and people without aid are turning against the soldiers. Kind of a vicious cycle.

[M.Dancer]

In a war zone.....but that would require armed soldiers.......

Armed soldier are not getting aid to the people and people without aid are turning against the soldiers. Kind of a vicious cycle.

So you mean the $8.5 million if food aid that Canadian soldiers are bringing to the people is not getting to all the people?

[M.Dancer]

UNICEF will provide some 20,000 families with non-food items such as tents, blankets and warm jackets which are very much needed with winter's arrival. With Canada's support, UNICEF will also provide health and medical supplies to hospitals and clinics, as well as micronutrients for children and pregnant women. Through UNICEF, support will be given to the Public Health Department's measles vaccination campaign to immunize as many as 189,000 children. In addition, UNICEF, through the Afghan Department of Education, will procure and distribute education materials for about 40,000 students who are now going to school in temporary centres.

"Women and children in Afghanistan continue to face huge challenges to their health and well-being and children are still confronted with barriers to accessing a quality education," said Evelyne Guindon, Executive Director of UNICEF Quebec. "This Canadian funding for UNICEF's work to help conflict-affected families will allow us to greatly expand our humanitarian response within the southern region of Afghanistan, and we are grateful for this support."

The non-food aid focus of UNICEF's initiatives complements today's commitment of $4 million to the WFP to provide food assistance to about 31,000 families in Kandahar who have been affected by the conflict and by the drought. This funding is in response to the WFP's Drought Joint Appeal to help internally displaced people in Kandahar.

What could those barriers be.......?

[jdobbin]

So you mean the $8.5 million if food aid that Canadian soldiers are bringing to the people is not getting to all the people?

If the Senlis Council is to be believed, no.

[M.Dancer]

So you mean the $8.5 million if food aid that Canadian soldiers are bringing to the people is not getting to all the people?

If the Senlis Council is to be believed, no.

The the solution is simple. More soldiers.

[jdobbin]

The the solution is simple. More soldiers.

I think MacKay made that request this weekend. This goes back to my earlier point that our allies seem less than committed to this mission.

[M.Dancer]

The the solution is simple. More soldiers.

I think MacKay made that request this weekend. This goes back to my earlier point that our allies seem less than committed to this mission.

Britain and the US both have much more there than we and both have upped their investment as well as Germany.

In a perfect world Spain and the new Nato members would be lining up to ante.....but because they don't have the will doesn't mean we don't.

[jdobbin]

Britain and the US both have much more there than we and both have upped their investment as well as Germany.

In a perfect world Spain and the new Nato members would be lining up to ante.....but because they don't have the will doesn't mean we don't.

Germany is looking to back out of where they are right now.

As for Britain and the U.S., they'd have to contribute even more to make a difference in Afghanistan.