Ok, time for the media to drop the evacuation non-story.

[gerryhatrick]

So the response was slow. so what?

The embassy told Canadians to be at the dock early in the morning, and they waited there all day in the hot sun with no ship and no water. Then they get on a ship and the crossing takes three times as long and again water is a problem.

OF COURSE some people are going to b1tch about that.

SO WHAT? WHO CARES?

Now Peter McKay is talking about it some more.

Editorials, letters to the editor....and I expect next week it will continue.

This is the biggest non-story of the 21st century. Let it go people.

[jbg]

The embassy told Canadians to be at the dock early in the morning, and they waited there all day in the hot sun with no ship and no water. Then they get on a ship and the crossing takes three times as long and again water is a problem.

OF COURSE some people are going to b1tch about that.

When people dance in the middle of a three-lane highway, what do they expect is going to happen?

[Riverwind]

SO WHAT? WHO CARES?

Nobody likes to be taken advantage of. These superficial Canadians who have not lived in Canada for decades really have no right to expect anything from the Canadian gov't. They certainly deserve to be ridiculed if they have the nerve to complain about the free assistance. The Canadian gov't should give current Canadian residents the priority - people who no long pay taxes in Canada should be at the back of the line.

[Hicksey]

I agree with gerry. This is such a non-story.

Who cares if Harper decides to fly his plane in there to save about 0.5% of the people that are requesting to be saved? Who cares that a bunch of people whined about not getting first-class accommodations on their free rescue from harm's way?

Both were inevitable.

[gerryhatrick]

SO WHAT? WHO CARES?

Nobody likes to be taken advantage of. These superficial Canadians who have not lived in Canada for decades really have no right to expect anything from the Canadian gov't.

You're confused, this isn't another Canadian bashing thread.

You (like other posters bashing these Canadians) have no idea what their story is.

None.

Do not assume the people coming back are all Lebanese residents who haven't lived in Canada for decades. That's ignorant and obviously incorrect anyway.

[August1991]

Do not assume the people coming back are all Lebanese residents who haven't lived in Canada for decades. That's ignorant and obviously incorrect anyway.

No, some of them left a few years ago to avoid fraud charges:

A man who returned to Canada aboard Stephen Harper's government airplane after escaping the fighting in Lebanon was arrested at the Ottawa airport on outstanding fraud charges early Friday.

Travelling with his wife and four children, Abbas Hachem, 40, was detained after landing at about 4 a.m. when authorities screening the 88 passengers discovered he was wanted for failing to appear in court on six charges of fraud over $5,000, two counts of uttering forged documents and one count of conspiracy.

....

Police allege Hachem and another man, Ramsey Hossain, defrauded banks of roughly $70,000 in early 2001 using six credit cards and phoney or useless cheques.

Hachem made court appearances throughout the spring, summer and fall of 2001, but failed to appear in court in November of 2001.

Although he didn't want to talk much about his pending criminal case except to say he was "innocent," Hachem said he left Canada to tend to a sick aunt, who has since died, and his aging mother in Lebanon. He added he always intended on returning to Canada.

Hachem is scheduled to appear in court on Aug. 15.

National Post

It's a big world, after all.

[gerryhatrick]

It's a big world, after all.

What is the point of your SINGLE anecdote?

Let's here what you think of the generalization that these people are mostly "Canadians by convenience" and moslty Lebanon residents?

One particularily ignorant poster elsewhere claimed that only 5% of the estimated 40,000 Canadians in Lebanon are on vacation. I provided media evidence that the number is more likely to be 50%.

Of the remaining 50%, how many will evacuate? We don't know. It's safe to assume that the majority of those coming back are Canadian residents, since they would be the ones most likely to immediately need the assistance to get out (given that the airports are bombed)

[Leafless]

Let's here what you think of the generalization that these people are mostly "Canadians by convenience" and moslty Lebanon residents?

Well, you must consider it ludicrous that out of the total population according to Stats.Can. that identified themselves (single response) as Lebanese which is 93,895 and 40,000 of them are on vacation in Lebanon.

That's close to an estimated 50% of all Lebanese in Canada are on vacation in Lebanon.

Now you must consider the fact that airfare and hotels is about the same for a vacation to England.

But to most people this is a once in a lifetime vacation due to the HIGH COST. But if you put this in perspective and consider 1-million Canadians identified themselves as French (in comparison) up to approx. 500,000 would be on vacation in France. Sounds pretty ridiculous, don't you think.

So obviously there must be a lot of truth that a lot of Lebanese are 'Canadians by convenience' ( or either filthy rich) although Canada keeps no official stats concerning this aspect but I suspect Canada just might be doing that soon, hopefully anyways.

[Charles Anthony]

Let's here what you think of the generalization that these people are mostly "Canadians by convenience" and moslty Lebanon residents?

This is what I think: I do not feel any of them are entitled to being rescued regardless of their allegiance to their "citizenship" or how much time they spend in Canada.

I am not ashamed to say it.

I have sympathy for their plight but I do not feel anybody has a responsibility to rescue anybody else. There are a lot of people in the rest of the world who are victims of violence and tragedy.

[gerryhatrick]

Let's here what you think of the generalization that these people are mostly "Canadians by convenience" and moslty Lebanon residents?

Well, you must consider it ludicrous that out of the total population according to Stats.Can. that identified themselves (single response) as Lebanese which is 93,895 and 40,000 of them are on vacation in Lebanon.

Who said 40,000 were on vacation?

I've posted this elsewhere.

From the National Post:

Why 40,000 Canadians are in Lebanon

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/st...11986be&k=61499

Canada's 2001 census identified 143,635 people as being of Lebanese origin. But a briefing book prepared for the government from the 2002 Francophonie Summit put the number at 250,000.

Sami Gedeon, a Montreal travel agent who specializes in travel to Lebanon, said that every year as many as 15,000 people from the city's Lebanese community -- Canada's biggest -- return to the

country.

Ok, looking at the facts of the situation:

Lebanon just recently became peaceful and stable again. This summer has been described as one of return for Canadians who have not visited in a long time. Look at the family that was decimated: 4 children visiting for the first time.

Although Montreal has the largest community of Lebanese origin, there are others. Considering that the estimate is 15,000 vacationing from Montreal alone this year, it's hardly a stretch to believe another 5000 from the rest of the country (given that estimates are between 150,000 and 250,000 Canadians of Lebanese origin in Canada).

So that's 20,000 of the estimated 40,000 in Lebanon being on vacation, which is obviously 50%

Consider as well that the people most likely to be calling the Canadian consolate and asking for help are these vacationers. With no other way out due to Israeli bombing, they needed their Countries help.

I would suspect that a large majority of the 7000 who've come back so far are Canadian residents.

Anyone suggesting otherwise is basing it on nothing solid from what I've seen. It comes accross more like fear and bigotry than rational consideration.

[Leafless]

gerryhatrick

The 2001 census numbers you quoted (143,635) as being of Lebanese origin is correct.

The numbers I gave you from the same source (93,895) were single response Lebanese, identifying themselves as Lebanese ONLY, which I think is a more accurate and a more appropriate number when accounting for dual citizenship as 'Lebanese' ( the other legal citizenship) would be the most probable response when applying in Canada for Canadian citizenship, in the case of dual Lebanon/Canadian citizenship.

The numbers you quoted is a combination of identification responses the contain both singular (93,895)and multiple responses (49,740) = 143,635 plus making reference to a briefing book from the 2002 Francophonie Summit pushed unofficial numbers boosting the total to 250,000.

Stats.Can numbers are a cause for confusion and they should incorporate a more simplistic and accurate method to detirmine different nationalities.

It would be interesting to see how many of the 250,000 (if indeed accurate) hold dual citizenship.

The story you posted " Why 40,000 Canadians are in Lebanon" will probably reworked several more times trying to make it sound more reasonable each time to justify the huge number of Lebanese Canadains in Lebanon.

Either way this in my book is a major immigration SCANDAL and is something that should require immediate federal attention.

[gerryhatrick]

gerryhatrick

The 2001 census numbers you quoted (143,635) as being of Lebanese origin is correct. The numbers I gave you from the same source (93,895) were single response Lebanese, identifying themselves as Lebanese ONLY

<rest removed, see above>

Your entire post was examining the census numbers. It matters little if it's 143,000, or 250,000 or 93,000.

The point of my post, which you completely ignored, was that about half of the estimated 40,000 Canadians in Lebanon are likely Canadian residents, and logic dictates that the majority of the 7 or so thousand that have been evacuated are also.

What do you see as an "Immigration SCANDAL"? What's scandelous? Allowing Lebanese to become Canadian citizens?

[Michael Hardner]

Why is it a "given" that when these issues come up, one side or the other has to explore a deep investigation of the people involved, so as to determine their character. In this case, it's being done to 40,000 Canadians.

If this had happened in England, there surely wouldn't have been a need to investigate which are "real" Canadians and which are not.

[Leafless]

What do you see as an "Immigration SCANDAL"? What's scandelous? Allowing Lebanese to become Canadian citizens?

Canada is a small country.

The scandal is allowing, as in this particular case, dual citizenship Canadians to live in another country for years and then in the event of a conflict SCREAM Canadian status to save their hide.

The other aspect which is a drain on Canadian financial resources is dual citizenship Canadians enjoying the comforts of another country only return to Canada at retirement age for old age pension and or medical attention.

What I am saying is I am advocating the removal of the luxury of dual citizenship and allowing only a single Canadian citizenship applicable only naturally in Canada living in this country as a tax paying Canadian.

Take Canada, or leave Canada, is the way it should be if our inept politicians are listening and also to the thousands of voices that are saying the same thing.

[Michael Hardner]

What I am saying is I am advocating the removal of the luxury of dual citizenship and allowing only a single Canadian citizenship applicable only naturally in Canada living in this country as a tax paying Canadian.

What criteria would you set up for removal of Canadian citizenship ? I'm pretty sure that the high and mighty in Canada would lobby heavily against your idea, and they're the ones with the real power.

[Kindred]

IF Canada had jobs for all its citizens maybe so many wouldnt be working overseas, Beijing for instance has 40,000 Canadians living, and working overseas and thats just Beijing - and I am sure the numbers are just as high for other countries. Stats say about 1.5 million Cdns are working and travelling overseas at any given time and that isnt counting students who are studying overseas

The results of AUCC's study showed that more female students (61%) participate in study abroad than male students (39%). On average, more students (63%) are likely to go abroad in their third year of university than any other year (22% in second year; 13% in fourth year; 3% in first year). 52% of students stay for two semesters abroad, as compared to 44% who stay for one semester only.

Registering at a Canadian Government Office Abroad

It is recommended that you register at the nearest Canadian government office abroad. This will help us contact you in case of an emergency. Registration is voluntary, and the information you provide is protected and used in accordance with the provisions of the Privacy Act. You can register on-line.

In countries where Canada has no direct representation, there may be arrangements in place for you to register with another country's embassy or consulate. For instance, Canada has a formal reciprocal agreement with Australia.

Consular Assistance

Canadian government offices abroad are ready to help you in case of an emergency . In some instances, there may be a fee for services.

Consular staff can:

contact your relatives or friends and ask them to send you emergency funds, at your request;

help you during emergencies such as natural disasters and civil or military uprisings; direct you to sources of information about local laws, regulations, cultural customs and visas;

assist with medical emergencies;

replace passports (fees apply). However, not all offices are authorized to issue regular passports;

try to ensure equitable treatment under local laws if you are arrested. At your request, they can inform relatives and friends about your arrest and try to ensure that legal rights and processes are extended to you consistent with the standards of the host country. However, they cannot set aside local laws if you are charged with an offence, or intervene in the judicial process of a foreign country. They cannot post bail, pay for a lawyer or pay your fines;

notify your next of kin, with your authorization, regarding an accident or death and let them know whether, and how, they can help.

Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada

[Leafless]

What I am saying is I am advocating the removal of the luxury of dual citizenship and allowing only a single Canadian citizenship applicable only naturally in Canada living in this country as a tax paying Canadian.

What criteria would you set up for removal of Canadian citizenship ? I'm pretty sure that the high and mighty in Canada would lobby heavily against your idea, and they're the ones with the real power.

Criteria? Simple- In the case of Lebanese or any other Canadian with dual citizenship ' You have six months to consider and choose the country you wish to live in. If you choose a country other than Canada, you will no longer be a citizen of Canada and you will be forced to leave'.

[Michael Hardner]

Criteria? Simple- In the case of Lebanese or any other Canadian with dual citizenship ' You have six months to consider and choose the country you wish to live in. If you choose a country other than Canada, you will no longer be a citizen of Canada and you will be forced to leave'.

So if they renounce their Lebanese citizenship, they're ok to live there ? Are you going to somehow exempt retirees and 'snowbirds' ? And how will you achieve this - what will be the loophole ?

[Kindred]

Its all there in black and white on the official Canada website, Canada will help you in emergency situations, such as natural disasters and war - how many people bitched when assistance was given to Cdn tourists in Thailand during the tsunami? Or is it because there is a suspicion that the majority of people needing to be evacuated might be Lebanese that is creating this backlash on the forum?

Census Canada requires you to name a nationality of origin - what were your parents? What is your families Nationality, when you fill out census forms.

No matter how many times it is posted here that other countries have medical services superior to Canada those of you, who have never set a foot outside your own city, never mind your own country, are just not going to get it are you? To believe Canada and the US are the ONLY countries with Medical assistance or doctors and hospitals is very very ignorant of you ............

The other aspect which is a drain on Canadian financial resources is dual citizenship Canadians enjoying the comforts of another country only return to Canada at retirement age for old age pension and or medical attention

No matter how many times it is posted that other countries have "Old Age Pension" and if you have worked and paid taxes in that country as well as Canada you are eligible to collect, you dont get it. Again the ignorance is appalling .......

I can see the reason why you choose not to be educated or do research , IF you educated yourselves you wouldnt be able to carry on these rants. Then what would you post about?

[August1991]

Criteria? Simple- In the case of Lebanese or any other Canadian with dual citizenship ' You have six months to consider and choose the country you wish to live in. If you choose a country other than Canada, you will no longer be a citizen of Canada and you will be forced to leave'.

Leafless, that idea is impractical and even crazy.

To start with, would it apply to a child? A child does not choose where to live.

Second, the Canadian government never registers anyone when they leave Canada. It doesn't register anyone leaving to the US. How would you determine dates?

What if the person chooses to give up citizenship in the other country? How is Canada to verify that this in fact is true?

-----

All schemes to forbid dual citizenship are simply impractical and unenforceable. Some people are going to hold several passports and be citizens of different countries. It's a fact of life.

Leafless, you seem obsessed with "control" and "enforcing rules". What's wrong with letting people decide on their own where they want to live and letting them cross borders freely?

[Kindred]

It doesn't register anyone leaving to the US.

Actually it does, with a little thing called an "Income Tax Return" - you have to declare income earned outside the country and are taxed on it.

The alternative as I posted before is to declare yourself an "Ex-Patriate" and relinquish your "Rights" to services in Canada. When you return to Canada there is a waiting period before you are eligible for those services, such as medical coverage.

[Kindred]

And of course there are "Work Visas" which you must get in order to work in another country and those are also registered as they are attached to your passport.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Leafless,

or any other Canadian with dual citizenship ' You have six months to consider and choose the country you wish to live in. If you choose a country other than Canada, you will no longer be a citizen of Canada and you will be forced to leave'.

How about the US? My brother-in-law lives in Victoria BC, and is a lawyer with dual citizenship. He is a great guy, makes a fair bit of money, and I would rather he (and his tax dollars) stayed here. However, due to the nature of his work, he travels a great deal (mostly to the US) and the dual citizenship is a great advantage to him. In this light, there must be some exceptions to the rule of 'one citizenship only'.

[August1991]

It doesn't register anyone leaving to the US.

Actually it does, with a little thing called an "Income Tax Return" - you have to declare income earned outside the country and are taxed on it.

I don't think any government would want to confuse tax collection and citizenship. The tax authorities are usually kept well away from any other bureaucracy and an individual's tax status is quite distinct from any other status they might have.

For example, residency for tax purposes is quite different from residency for immigration purposes. Non-Canadians are liable to pay Canadian taxes.

But Kindred, you raise a good point. The ultimate measure of citizenship is not whether you vote or not - it's whether you pay your taxes.

Outside of North America and Japan, income taxes are not a government's major source of revenue. European governments rely more on VAT where rates are as high as 35%.

The alternative as I posted before is to declare yourself an "Ex-Patriate" and relinquish your "Rights" to services in Canada. When you return to Canada there is a waiting period before you are eligible for those services, such as medical coverage.

To whom do you declare your "expatriate" status and what "services" do you relinquish? Consular services?

If you leave a province for more than six months for any reason, you lose medical coverage and must wait for three months after returning before you're covered again.

[Leafless]

Criteria? Simple- In the case of Lebanese or any other Canadian with dual citizenship ' You have six months to consider and choose the country you wish to live in. If you choose a country other than Canada, you will no longer be a citizen of Canada and you will be forced to leave'.

So if they renounce their Lebanese citizenship, they're ok to live there ? Are you going to somehow exempt retirees and 'snowbirds' ? And how will you achieve this - what will be the loophole ?

Yes exactly! But there is a catch, you must be employed in Canada and if your not you will require a sponsor who will be responsible for your total welfare. This sponsor could be a potential employer with a firm commitment to hire you or a private family that is willing to take on all financial responsibilities while you look for a job. In the case of the family they assume all responsibility while here in Canada for a maximum time limit of one year.

If a job cannot be found in one year , it is back to Lebanon or wherever you initially came from.

Pertaining to snowbirds or retirees I believe you cannot be out of Canada for more than 6-months to retain your Canadian citizenship and all other benefits as a Canadian citizen.