M.Dancer Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 The fall of Constantinople happened thanks to a great many STOLEN European technology and "intelligence"... canons, ships, ascension ladders etc... I'm sure if they were stolen you have a police report somewhere.... and yes our genes are all PRECISELY EXACTLY to the one hundredth decimal EQUAL... Correct, score one for you. and such features as black skin, kinky hair, broad noses, Are superficial... type and degree of intelligence, Correct again..you are on a roll... androgen hormonal types and degrees, acuity of vision, susceptibility to specific diseases... Pretty irrelevant... that's all caused by white racism and poverty I suppose right... right ... And there you go becoming a farmer and making a strawman...congratulations. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
tango Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 Listen, we all know you're just venting out hatred... fess up... you don't like Europe or its civilization... its not like you're fooling anyone! lictor who appointed you the 'defender of the white race'. Certainly not me. I don't wish for that kind of 'help', thanks. We're just looking into our own history here. Nothing to get nasty and bent outta shape about. Quote My Canada includes rights of Indigenous Peoples. Love it or leave it, eh! Peace.
lictor616 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 Philosophy was hardly unique to Europe. Buddhism and Confucianism were every bit as influential as European philosophy.I wouldn't call what happened to China beginning in the 18th century "lucky". Chinese Philosophy (though Taoism and other schools of it are quite creditable as philosophy) doesn't see itself as philosophy in the western sense: that is "the mind of conceptual thought-of thought directed from the mind toward an object". Chinese and Hindu philosophy (though both quite creditable) lack in the thought OF THOUGHT - they are objective and rational in existential problems... but lack that quality of Western philosophy and classics. And to say that Confucius was every bit as influential in our world as Plato or Aristotle... well that's simply nonsense. And china was pretty much left alone after the terrible Mongol Invasions in which 60-70 million (half the Chinese population) was murdered ... apparently the beleif that only Europeans have genocidal tendencies (as some have suggested) is somewhat incorrect... After the Zheng He voyages... From the Ming Dynasty to the Qing China saw an age of relative peace and isolationism.. troubles really began in the 19th century Quote -Magna Europa Est Patria Nostra-
lictor616 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) lictor who appointed you the 'defender of the white race'. Certainly not me. I don't wish for that kind of 'help', thanks.We're just looking into our own history here. Nothing to get nasty and bent outta shape about. I'm not getting bent "OUTTA SHAPE" over it... I'm stating a fact Tango... listen your contempt for Western civilization and the ethnicity that created it is palpable... it is written in every line that you write and felt in ever tone... For everything "bad" that happens to other people (Aztecs NAtives etc) you blame on the wickedness of Europe... Everything creditable (invention, conquest, peace, security, abolition of slavery) you call "luck" and imply that Europeans are unworthy of praise for such things... Its a standard liberal frame of mind... i've seen it so many times... its the same type of thought that makes people want to make "white people" responsible for the inadequacies and hardships (historical and present) of "blacks" and pay them affirmative action and reperations... but simultaneously makes "white people" somehow NOT responsible or creditable with their Civilization and achievements... Edited April 23, 2009 by lictor616 Quote -Magna Europa Est Patria Nostra-
lictor616 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 I'm sure if they were stolen you have a police report somewhere.... stolen, purchased borrowed... Quote -Magna Europa Est Patria Nostra-
M.Dancer Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 Today's Epiphany is brought to you by Lictor.... Chinese Philosophy (though Taoism and other schools of it are quite creditable as philosophy) doesn't see itself as philosophy in the western sense: that is "the mind of conceptual thought-of thought directed from the mind toward an object". Chinese and Hindu philosophy (though both quite creditable) lack in the thought OF THOUGHT - they are objective and rational in existential problems... but lack that quality of Western philosophy and classics. Startling but true...astern and Western philosophy are DIFFERENT!!! Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
lictor616 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 I'm sure if they were stolen you have a police report somewhere....Correct, score one for you. Are superficial... Correct again..you are on a roll... Pretty irrelevant... And there you go becoming a farmer and making a strawman...congratulations. Humans are not hundredth decimal equal... genetically perhaps tenth decimal... but who would dream to think that two random people are to the one hundredth decimal equal in character, intelligence, height, build, appearance etc... again this is nonsense on stilts.. Could you be a bit more moderate here and realize that it’s not such extremes here, that racial differences are a combination of nature and nurture, it’s in fact both, it’s not either/or? And also, acuity of vision, intelligence, skin type, susceptibility to specific diseases are NOT TRIVIAL TRAITS... they are extremely important... Black skin is not superficial, it offers very REAL advantage in some aspects such as defense against the harmful effect of the sun... unless you think skin cancer is a jolly and "superficial" thing... Race is not a trait, it’s ancestry, and ancestry has wide-ranging genetic implications that are hugely relevant and important. In essence you're not so much denying the existence of traits and genetic differences.... you simply superficially devalue them to zero... saying that IQ, susceptibility to disease... (ie hypertension, high blood pressure and intolerance of alcohol for natives) is meaningless and not anything that should be observed or paid attention to... and that's just lunacy... Quote -Magna Europa Est Patria Nostra-
lictor616 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 Today's Epiphany is brought to you by Lictor....Startling but true...astern and Western philosophy are DIFFERENT!!! in quality too.. Quote -Magna Europa Est Patria Nostra-
benny Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 Humans are not hundredth decimal equal... genetically perhaps tenth decimal... but who would dream to think that two random people are to the one hundredth decimal equal in character, intelligence, height, build, appearance etc... again this is nonsense on stilts.. Could you be a bit more moderate here and realize that it’s not such extremes here, that racial differences are a combination of nature and nurture, it’s in fact both, it’s not either/or? And also, acuity of vision, intelligence, skin type, susceptibility to specific diseases are NOT TRIVIAL TRAITS... they are extremely important... Black skin is not superficial, it offers very REAL advantage in some aspects such as defense against the harmful effect of the sun... unless you think skin cancer is a jolly and "superficial" thing... Race is not a trait, it’s ancestry, and ancestry has wide-ranging genetic implications that are hugely relevant and important. In essence you're not so much denying the existence of traits and genetic differences.... you simply superficially devalue them to zero... saying that IQ, susceptibility to disease... (ie hypertension, high blood pressure and intolerance of alcohol for natives) is meaningless and not anything that should be observed or paid attention to... and that's just lunacy... Since genes are the result of a lottery, they are indeed morally meaningless. Genes are internal natural resources and should be treated like external natural resources (gold, oil, etc.). To get full ownership of scarce and useful resources, one has to share their fruits. Quote
ToadBrother Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 The fall of Constantinople happened thanks to a great many STOLEN European technology and "intelligence"... canons, ships, ascension ladders etc... The Fall of Constantinople happened because a pack of greedy Venetian bankers and their backers among the European nobility sent an army off and pillaged Byzantium in one of the most vile and wicked acts of Christian murder and pillaging by fellow Christians, or as some folks like to call it, the Fourth Crusade, which left the Eastern Empire so damaged, demoralized and broke that it was utterly incapable of mounting a defense against the Turks. ? so was the Ottoman Empire "lucky"?Nothing special in our genes except a sort of creativity that is conspicuously lacking in the Brahman, zulus, Hottentots, Ubangis, Australoids and the like... There is no evidence for this. It's a long falsified Victorian racist notion. The differences, as always, are geography. Prior to Roman times, the Europeans were no more advanced than a number of sub-Saharan cultures, and whatever advancement came after that was because of contact with more advanced Mediterranean civilizations for some reason invention, technology and philosophy.... and the "faustian spirit" seems for all practical purposes to be faculties of the Europeans and Asians... none have been as "lucky" in acquiring creative will-to-powerI suppose you believe that inventing the nuclear bomb happened thanks to a series of dice rolls and prayers too... and yes our genes are all PRECISELY EXACTLY to the one hundredth decimal EQUAL... and such features as black skin, kinky hair, broad noses, type and degree of intelligence, androgen hormonal types and degrees, acuity of vision, susceptibility to specific diseases... that's all caused by white racism and poverty I suppose right... right ... Not only are you a racist, but you're an idiot as well. You're historically illiterate, and use your ignorance to justify an unjustifiable superiority. Quote
ToadBrother Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 In essence you're not so much denying the existence of traits and genetic differences.... you simply superficially devalue them to zero... saying that IQ, susceptibility to disease... (ie hypertension, high blood pressure and intolerance of alcohol for natives) is meaningless and not anything that should be observed or paid attention to... and that's just lunacy... "Race" as a genetic description is practically meaningless. For a geneticist, traditional views of race hold little explanatory power. For instance, the highest degree of genetic diversity in human populations is in sub-Saharan Africa. Compared to that, just about everyone else can pretty much be lumped into one big category, that is "non-Sub-Saharan African". The idea that people of a certain skin color have somehow lower IQs on average, when, in fact, those people come from populations far more genetically diverse than, say, anything you'd find between a European and a New World Indian is lunacy. The Victorian racial model failed because it did not explain actual molecular and phenotypic observations. Genes are not static, nor do they stay within any group, unless that group is completely cut off from the rest of the world (and the only time that that has happened for any substantial period was the Tasmanian Aborigines, cut off from Australia around 10,000 years ago by rising sea levels). It's true that different populations will have different percentages of certain genes, but trying to map individual genes to major and complex properties like "IQ" or "eye sight" is lunacy. What your espousing was the last attempt to uphold failed racial theories by incorporating overly simplified genetic models. It was rejected by the scientific community many years ago simply because it holds no explanatory power. If there is some mapping between genes and semi-arbitrary testing like IQ, it's considerably more complex than "Eurasians are smarter than Africans", which, as I point out, is a pretty questionable statement anyways, considering, as I said, that the highest degree of genetic dissimilarity between populations is in Africa. The reality is that humans, even the most diverse groups in Sub-Saharan Africa, are far more closely related than even some neighboring wild chimp populations. Just as importantly, the intelligence tests so often used to "prove" things like the Bell Curve are socio-economically and culturally biased that it's difficult to say whether they represent any kind of reality at all. Quote
M.Dancer Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 "Race" as a genetic description is practically meaningless. ..... Some folk have far more patience with the neo fascist/white supremist types than me. They tend to be long winded, jejune and over a short time boring.... I am more prone to pointing my finger at them a laugh... Maybe the best way to deal with racists is just to treat them like the clowns that they are:“White Power!” the Nazi’s shouted, “White Flour?” the clowns yelled back running in circles throwing flour in the air and raising separate letters which spelt “White Flour”. “White Power!” the Nazi’s angrily shouted once more, “White flowers?” the clowns cheers and threw white flowers in the air and danced about merrily. “White Power!” the Nazi’s tried once again in a doomed and somewhat funny attempt to clarify their message, “ohhhhhh!” the clowns yelled “Tight Shower!” and held a solar shower in the air and all tried to crowd under to get clean as per the Klan’s directions. At this point several of the Nazi’s and Klan members began clutching their hearts as if they were about to have a heart attack. Their beady eyes bulged, and the veins in their tiny narrow foreheads beat in rage. One last time they screamed “White Power!” The clown women thought they finally understood what the Klan was trying to say. “Ohhhhh…” the women clowns said. “Now we understand…”, “WIFE POWER!” they lifted the letters up in the air, grabbed the nearest male clowns and lifted them in their arms and ran about merrily chanting “WIFE POWER! WIFE POWER! WIFE POWER!” It was at this point that several observers reported seeing several Klan members heads exploding in rage and they stopped trying to explain to the clowns what they wanted. http://girly-bits.com/?p=147 Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
benny Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 "Race" as a genetic description is practically meaningless. For a geneticist, traditional views of race hold little explanatory power. Genes or their derivatives can now be patented and with these patents comes what is really meaningful: ethics. Quote
lictor616 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) Since genes are the result of a lottery, they are indeed morally meaningless. Genes are internal natural resources and should be treated like external natural resources (gold, oil, etc.). To get full ownership of scarce and useful resources, one has to share their fruits. AH! so now genes are "MORALLY" meaningless... meaning that while recognizing they indeed play a role in every aspect of human qualities.. because traits happen haphazardly.. so much for the iron law of heredity! So by this logic- if two asian (say Koreans) copulate and produce progeny... there as good of chance that their children will turn out to look like Shaquille Oneil as Dolph Lundgren or Kim JOn Ill. Remarkable logic there my friend... and I bet the same happens in the black regions of African all the time... I,m sure British or Dutch accounts of incursions into sub saharan africa are rife with glowing accounts of blonde and red headed Nordic Europeans as well as assorted asians sub-types festooned all over the place... yes.. yes ... at last it all makes perfect sense now.. Edited April 23, 2009 by lictor616 Quote -Magna Europa Est Patria Nostra-
lictor616 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) There is no evidence for this. It's a long falsified Victorian racist notion. no proof of different abilities or potential for creativity!??!?! Oh I'm sorry... please tell about the many Zulu, Hottentot and Australoid breakthroughs in science and technology then... Perhaps you can use the example of the Hottentot invention of the transistor... or the Australoid created and made F-18 jet fighter... or the Zulu "Newtonian" mechanics.... yes the proof is abundant isn't it... Edited April 23, 2009 by lictor616 Quote -Magna Europa Est Patria Nostra-
benny Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 So by this logic- if two asian (say Koreans) copulate and produce progeny... there as good of chance that their children will turn out to look like Shaquille Oneil as Dolph Lundgren or Kim JOn Ill. "good of chance" is a meaningless expression. Quote
lictor616 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 "Race" as a genetic description is practically meaningless. For a geneticist, traditional views of race hold little explanatory power. For instance, the highest degree of genetic diversity in human populations is in sub-Saharan Africa. Compared to that, just about everyone else can pretty much be lumped into one big category, that is "non-Sub-Saharan African".The idea that people of a certain skin color have somehow lower IQs on average, when, in fact, those people come from populations far more genetically diverse than, say, anything you'd find between a European and a New World Indian is lunacy. The Victorian racial model failed because it did not explain actual molecular and phenotypic observations. Genes are not static, nor do they stay within any group, unless that group is completely cut off from the rest of the world (and the only time that that has happened for any substantial period was the Tasmanian Aborigines, cut off from Australia around 10,000 years ago by rising sea levels). It's true that different populations will have different percentages of certain genes, but trying to map individual genes to major and complex properties like "IQ" or "eye sight" is lunacy. What your espousing was the last attempt to uphold failed racial theories by incorporating overly simplified genetic models. It was rejected by the scientific community many years ago simply because it holds no explanatory power. If there is some mapping between genes and semi-arbitrary testing like IQ, it's considerably more complex than "Eurasians are smarter than Africans", which, as I point out, is a pretty questionable statement anyways, considering, as I said, that the highest degree of genetic dissimilarity between populations is in Africa. The reality is that humans, even the most diverse groups in Sub-Saharan Africa, are far more closely related than even some neighboring wild chimp populations. Just as importantly, the intelligence tests so often used to "prove" things like the Bell Curve are socio-economically and culturally biased that it's difficult to say whether they represent any kind of reality at all. !? the grand majority (83% of biologists, 61% of biological anthropologists 48% of cultural anthropologists) (Lieberman et. al. 1992 -2002) agree that there are human races. The most prominent biologists and anthropologists have all come out with public statements about "race" John C. Avise, R. Martin Ball, Jr., Stephen J. O’Brien and Ernst Mayr- all the creme of biologists completely agree in the fact of human races and clines. here is Ernst Mayr's statment which fairly states the consensus: http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/001951.html snip --- "There is a widespread feeling that the word race indicates something undesirable and that it should be left out of all discussions. This leads to such statements as there are no human races. Those who subscribe to this opinion are obviously ignorant of modern biology. Races are not something specifically human; races occur in a large percentage of species of animals . . . the geographic races of the human races established before the voyages of European discovery and subsequent rise of a global economy - agree in most characteristics with the geographic races of animals. Recognizing races is only recognizing a biological fact." The notion of races (in our crumbling culture) while being almost illegal is still the consensus in the scientific community... and despite the huge stigma and potential for media harassment (see the father of DNA James Watson's recent troubles for being honest about africa) many biologists see impossible to think in terms of a "single human type or race". I'd love for you to quote this rambling errant nonsense about there being only two races - sub saharan and "non" sub saharan... Although lefties and liberals (as their religion of Egalitarianism demands) are very much willing to make science illegal if science produces "impious" results.... the consensus is still the same. Some biologists will labor in their laboratories and use circumlocution or euphemisms or replacement words so as to not arouse the hatred of the liberal rabble. They will use the word "cline" in lieu of "race"... but that doesn't change anything... Quote -Magna Europa Est Patria Nostra-
lictor616 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 "good of chance" is a meaningless expression. as likely then... jeez Quote -Magna Europa Est Patria Nostra-
ToadBrother Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 no proof of different ability for creativity!??!?!Oh I'm sorry... please tell about the many Zulu, Hottentot and Australoid breakthroughs in science and technology then... Perhaps you can use the example of the Hottentot invention of the transistor... or the Australoid created and made F-18 jet fighter... or the Zulu "Newtonian" mechanics.... yes the proof is abundant isn't it... Just how many times are you going to replay this racist canard? I've already explained why this notion that somehow certain groups can be genetically more likely to have some better intelligence is simply not substantiated by the evidence. Look, you're a racist bigot, and as a racist bigot, you have to find ways, despite the science not being there, to justify your racist bigotry. I know that, you know that, everyone knows that. So, in light of the fact that science does not back up your racist bigotry, you attempt an end run by such logically-challenged claims. I've made my explanations clear, and the fact that you won't even deal with them, just repeating the same bit of nonsense over and over, suggests to me, at least, that, whatever genetic components may be there, I am a helluva lot smarter than you. Quote
benny Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 as likely then... jeez Goodness is not a quality that can be left to likelihood. Quote
lictor616 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) Just how many times are you going to replay this racist canard? I've already explained why this notion that somehow certain groups can be genetically more likely to have some better intelligence is simply not substantiated by the evidence. Look, you're a racist bigot, and as a racist bigot, you have to find ways, despite the science not being there, to justify your racist bigotry. I know that, you know that, everyone knows that. So, in light of the fact that science does not back up your racist bigotry, you attempt an end run by such logically-challenged claims. I've made my explanations clear, and the fact that you won't even deal with them, just repeating the same bit of nonsense over and over, suggests to me, at least, that, whatever genetic components may be there, I am a helluva lot smarter than you. so your failure to bring up comparable inventions or breakthroughs in technology or to shore up ANY EVIDENCE at all for your claims of complete equality between the civilizations Europeans created and the "civilization" that the Zulu or Hottentots or Australoids created... makes ME the bigot ... really? the definition of bigotry is : "being obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"... now I am willing to consider arguments that will put the lie on the notion that Europeans were more creative and MORE scientifically literate the the Australoids or Hottentots or Ubangis... BUT... so far you haven't produced any... you merely call me names and hurl insults AT ME and TELL me that your brain is greatly superior to mine... yet refuse to settle the argument by producing evidence that would sustain a theory of complete creative equality or at the very least: problem solving abilities.. either produce evidence for your opinion of utter equality or sit down... don't begrudge me my skepticism about equality WHEN YOU YOURSELF CANNOT PRODUCE ANY EVIDENCE FOR IT... other then finger waiving, insulting and threatening me... Edited April 23, 2009 by lictor616 Quote -Magna Europa Est Patria Nostra-
tango Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) I'm not getting bent "OUTTA SHAPE" over it... I'm stating a fact Tango... listen your contempt for Western civilization and the ethnicity that created it is palpable... it is written in every line that you write and felt in ever tone... For everything "bad" that happens to other people (Aztecs NAtives etc) you blame on the wickedness of Europe... Everything creditable (invention, conquest, peace, security, abolition of slavery) you call "luck" and imply that Europeans are unworthy of praise for such things... Its a standard liberal frame of mind... i've seen it so many times... its the same type of thought that makes people want to make "white people" responsible for the inadequacies and hardships (historical and present) of "blacks" and pay them affirmative action and reperations... but simultaneously makes "white people" somehow NOT responsible or creditable with their Civilization and achievements... As a member of 'western civilization', I am interested in our history, warts and all, to understand our present by knowing where we came from and how and why. You, however, are a white supremacist who identifies by race and demands that people not investigate western history because you are choose not to accept any suggestion of flaws in your 'race'. The more fruitful approach for humanity is to learn from the truth, and use it to create new directions for our society, as Canada has done by rejecting its racist past and learning to respect all cultures. Edited April 23, 2009 by tango Quote My Canada includes rights of Indigenous Peoples. Love it or leave it, eh! Peace.
lictor616 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) So, in light of the fact that science does not back up your racist bigotry, you attempt an end run by such logically-challenged claims. ? I've just cited a study that concluded that MOST BIOLOGISTS and even CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGISTS, agree in a concept of race... the bulk of those who don't: instead believe in "CLINES" of humans ... which is the SAME as human races... I even quoted a statement by the FOREMOST BIOLOGIST: Ersnt Mayr to the effect that races are beyond the SHADOW OF A DOUBT a fact... I then put out a common sense arguement: if races and genetic heredity are figments of the imagination (as you say you believe they are) why is it that if two Northern Asiatics (Koreans say) have children ... they don't come out looking like Shacquille Oneil or Wesley Snipes, or Dolf Lundgren or Conan Obrian? its YOU who is the Bigot... its YOU who hates reason and flees logic ... Edited April 23, 2009 by lictor616 Quote -Magna Europa Est Patria Nostra-
benny Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 so your failure to bring up comparable inventions or breakthroughs in technology or to shore up ANY EVIDENCE at all for your claims of complete equality between the civilizations Europeans created and the "civilization" that the Zulu or Hottentots or Australoids created... makes ME the bigot ... really? Meditation techniques of Buddhism arrive at much the same results (about the "emptiness" of matter) than Western super colliders. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted April 23, 2009 Report Posted April 23, 2009 now I am willing to consider arguments that will put the lie on the notion that Europeans were more creative and MORE scientifically literate the the Australoids or Hottentots or Ubangis... BUT... You're dealing with some cultural relativists. We're all the same, etc. While I agree with them on some points, I agree with you that some cultures do promote more question asking than others. My culture...based on various ethics, I do feel is far superior to some others. Certainly better than those with no woman's rights, et al. Race has nothing to do with this, btw. It is purely a cultural 'thang'. All colours of humans excell under the freedom of Western Civilization. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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