1491, or, Was Pre-European "White Man" America Really

[Higgly]

The devastation wrought by smallpox and other European diseases and the deliberate policy of expulsion and genocide of North America's natives are really two seperate matters.

I can't help but think of another thread where somebody advances the notion that the (moslem) world should be grateful to the west for providing a cure for smallpox. Let's see. Who was that?

Edited October 10, 2007 by Higgly

[ScottSA]

I can't help but think of another thread where somebody advances the notion that the (moslem) world should be grateful to the west for providing a cure for smallpox. Let's see. Who was that?

Dunno, but it would have been nice if the Muslim world had reciprocated with a cure for the Black Plague. I wonder if that was a deliberate "genocide" too?

[jawapunk]

The muslim world did give us the cure for the bubonic plague...

[ScottSA]

The muslim world did give us the cure for the bubonic plague...

Really.

[mikedavid00]

The muslim world did give us the cure for the bubonic plague...

[jbg]

The devastation wrought by smallpox and other European diseases and the deliberate policy of expulsion and genocide of North America's natives are really two seperate matters.

Not really, if disease did the job first.

[Black Dog]

Not really, if disease did the job first.

Wrong. Even if we accept that disease was responsible in large part for the decline of North America's indiginous population, there's still the not-insignificant matters of the slaughte and relocation of those that remained. The U.S.'s policies towards the native population during the openig of the American west to settlement are particularily appalling. Unless you're arguing that the earlier depletion by disease somehow excuses thos epolicies, or that the wholesale ethnic cleansing doesn't qualify as genocide since most of the damage had already been done (which is like saying the Holocaust wasn't genocide since a number of Jews survived).

[jennie]

Yet again, I ask how can one quantify the suffering of these children and prove that it was any worse than what other Canadian children went through at the time.

Children did not "simply disappear"

you have to suggest that sexual abuse was a deliberate tactic to force the children to "submit".

Where are the mass graves that would result from such death rates?

No thanks, I'm quite certain it's just one-sided propaganda.

I am disappointed in you kengs. I thought you were perhaps a more objective academic than that.

Your response is to avoid acknowledging this information. You are not alone. Most Canadians don't like to discuss this aspect of our history.

I am hopeful that most Canadians will become better informed over the next couple of years, as the federal government's 'Truth and Reconciliation Commission' is in progress. It is an important part of the settlement, the part where Canadians are told at least some of the truth.

A few points:

- In the residential schools, sexual abuse occurred as much to boys as girls, perhaps more. (Nothing to do with feminism.)

- The death rates in the schools averaged 50% or more for decades, according to the government's own data.

- Rape is a common war/ethnic cleansing tactic, used to terrorize the population.

- It is commonly agreed by many historians that at least 50,000 children died in the residential schools. Reports indicate many were buried near the schools, some in mass graves. The deaths have not yet been investigated ... ever. The federal government's Truth and Reconciliation Commission says it is beginning to do so now, after Minister Jim Prentice was confronted by the media on the topic.

This is a documentary about one man's experiences related to residential schools. He is a minister:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-66...epentant&to

Edited October 12, 2007 by jennie

[jbg]

Wrong. Even if we accept that disease was responsible in large part for the decline of North America's indiginous population, there's still the not-insignificant matters of the slaughte and relocation of those that remained. The U.S.'s policies towards the native population during the openig of the American west to settlement are particularily appalling. Unless you're arguing that the earlier depletion by disease somehow excuses thos epolicies, or that the wholesale ethnic cleansing doesn't qualify as genocide since most of the damage had already been done (which is like saying the Holocaust wasn't genocide since a number of Jews survived).

Ethnic cleansing? Hardly. When they didn't live in peace with Europeans, the whites turned to war.And given the decimatiion by disease, any surprise who won?

[jennie]

Ethnic cleansing? Hardly. When they didn't live in peace with Europeans, the whites turned to war.And given the decimatiion by disease, any surprise who won?

Oh puleez

That is true neither south or north of the border.

Edited October 12, 2007 by jennie

[Black Dog]

Ethnic cleansing? Hardly. When they didn't live in peace with Europeans, the whites turned to war.And given the decimatiion by disease, any surprise who won

Ahistorical crap.

[jbg]

Ahistorical crap.

Oh yes. When you're losing the argument, resort to profanity. I'm so impressed that you feel strongly enough to curse.

[kengs333]

I am disappointed in you kengs. I thought you were perhaps a more objective academic than that.

Your response is to avoid acknowledging this information. You are not alone. Most Canadians don't like to discuss this aspect of our history.

I am hopeful that most Canadians will become better informed over the next couple of years, as the federal government's 'Truth and Reconciliation Commission' is in progress. It is an important part of the settlement, the part where Canadians are told at least some of the truth.

A few points:

- In the residential schools, sexual abuse occurred as much to boys as girls, perhaps more. (Nothing to do with feminism.)

- The death rates in the schools averaged 50% or more for decades, according to the government's own data.

- Rape is a common war/ethnic cleansing tactic, used to terrorize the population.

- It is commonly agreed by many historians that at least 50,000 children died in the residential schools. Reports indicate many were buried near the schools, some in mass graves. The deaths have not yet been investigated ... ever. The federal government's Truth and Reconciliation Commission says it is beginning to do so now, after Minister Jim Prentice was confronted by the media on the topic.

This is a documentary about one man's experiences related to residential schools. He is a minister:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-66...epentant&to

I believe I've stated on a number of occasions that I don't deny what Europeans have done; I don't have an idealized concept of Europeans or European history. Idealized, however, is what one can say about your interpretation of Indian history. You steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that Indians also behaved barberously and murderously both in their dealings with Europeans and people of their "own race". So objectivity is certainly something is lacking on your side. And let's not forget when it comes to "academics" that you made it clear you had no intention of consulting academic reports about Indian settlement patterns in southern Ontario, archaelogical evidence of Indian practices such as cannibalism. This victimization of Indians--when in fact Indians were equal players in the political and military struggle for the continent (which they eventually lost)--only perpetuates the problems of the past; it solves nothing. If you are going to do this sort of thing, it's only right that you admit that Indians were responsible for much suffering and bloodshed.

[AngusThermopyle]

I am disappointed in you kengs. I thought you were perhaps a more objective academic than that.

Your response is to avoid acknowledging this information. You are not alone. Most Canadians don't like to discuss this aspect of our history.

I am hopeful that most Canadians will become better informed over the next couple of years, as the federal government's 'Truth and Reconciliation Commission' is in progress. It is an important part of the settlement, the part where Canadians are told at least some of the truth.

A few points:

- In the residential schools, sexual abuse occurred as much to boys as girls, perhaps more. (Nothing to do with feminism.)

- The death rates in the schools averaged 50% or more for decades, according to the government's own data.

- Rape is a common war/ethnic cleansing tactic, used to terrorize the population.

- It is commonly agreed by many historians that at least 50,000 children died in the residential schools. Reports indicate many were buried near the schools, some in mass graves. The deaths have not yet been investigated ... ever. The federal government's Truth and Reconciliation Commission says it is beginning to do so now, after Minister Jim Prentice was confronted by the media on the topic.

Sorry Jennie, once again you are making baseless statements.you're spouting propaganda without source or fact.

Instead of making childish and simplistic excuses as you have in the past why dont you explain why in this nation of approximately 30 million people no one has ever unearthed a mass grave of any kind? Perhaps its all part of some mass conspiracy that all of us simplistic simple folk are unaware of.

Can you actually show us these "government statistics"? Not that i doubt your "oral history" word, I'd just like to see some hard evidence to back up your claims.

In other words, show me the bodies and bones, they seem to be in rather short supply don't they?

Seems to me that you are a very militant uncompromising sort of person, a fundamentalist if you will. Either that or you are very gullible and easily led. The only substantive reason you seem to be able to summon always seems to resort back to the "truth and blah blah commission". In other words a "just you wait and see " sort of attitude.

I've stated it before and I will do so once more, i do not believe you. All you have to say smacks of dishonesty. I simply do not believe that you are as you wish to appear and the things you purport to be true are in fact baseless.

[jennie]

Sorry Jennie, once again you are making baseless statements.you're spouting propaganda without source or fact.

Instead of making childish and simplistic excuses as you have in the past why dont you explain why in this nation of approximately 30 million people no one has ever unearthed a mass grave of any kind? Perhaps its all part of some mass conspiracy that all of us simplistic simple folk are unaware of.

Can you actually show us these "government statistics"? Not that i doubt your "oral history" word, I'd just like to see some hard evidence to back up your claims.

In other words, show me the bodies and bones, they seem to be in rather short supply don't they?

Seems to me that you are a very militant uncompromising sort of person, a fundamentalist if you will. Either that or you are very gullible and easily led. The only substantive reason you seem to be able to summon always seems to resort back to the "truth and blah blah commission". In other words a "just you wait and see " sort of attitude.

I've stated it before and I will do so once more, i do not believe you. All you have to say smacks of dishonesty. I simply do not believe that you are as you wish to appear and the things you purport to be true are in fact baseless.

Angus, I am old enough not to give a flying fig what you think, in the grand scheme of things. I am old enough to know better than to go chasing around after evidence that you don't really want to see anyway. I am old enough that I don't answer to anyone, nor do I justify myself to people who prefer their own misperceptions anyway. And I believe that writing a long diatribe as you have against another poster is certainly lacking in class, and also against the rules, perhaps?

I am repeating myself here for your benefit, to answer your one intelligent question: Graves are dug up when there is an investigation. There has never been an official investigation of deaths in the residential schools, though the Federal Government's Truth and Reconciliation Commission reports that it is doing one now.

The evidence is easily available to anyone truly interested in knowing the truth.

This documentary film is also easily available and I found it quite spellbinding.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-66...epentant&to

I will be interested in your opinion of the 'evidence' presented in the film.

[weaponeer]

I read some interesting articles recently that indicated European ice age peoples may have been the first humans in N America. They have found spead heads dating back 17000+ years in Virginia. They think they came across on the ice sheet that covered the Atlantic in those days. The article even indicated that some Indian tribes in N America have European DNA. Someone told me there was a program on Discovery about it, I have not seen it.

Perhaps the Indians were not the first humans here, perhaps we Euros were:)

[jbg]

Perhaps the Indians were not the first humans here, perhaps we Euros were:)

Even if true I doubt their presence was continuous. I am willing to agree that the FN's probably were the first continuous inhabitants, but I do believe that smallpox, not murder, destroyed them numerically and culturally.

[lictor616]

There is a fascinating discussion going on elsewhere on this forum about aboriginal issues. An excerpt from this discussion, quoted below, includes many recently debunked beliefs about aboriginals and the effect of their interaction with Europeans.

Some time ago, Charles Mann wrote an article in Atlantic Magazine destroying many myths about aboriginals. Among those myths that he effectively demolished are:

1. That the Europeans deliberately killed or subjugated many of the aboriginals;
   
2. That there were many thriving and viable aboriginal cultures destroyed by Europeans;
   
3. That the aboriginals were "light on the land" and did not effect the "balance of nature" very much; and
   
4. That super-abundant numbers of buffalo, wolves and passenger pigeons (now extinct) were the natural state of affairs.
   

Now that 1491 has come out in book form, I decided that it was time to post the entire Atlantic Magazine preview, from, I believe, the April 2002 issue. It is fascinating and definitely worth the read, even if you have to pay some money to the Atlantic Magazine website for the excerpt.

this post could only have as its main purpose to defame Europeans, vilify them and to induce a Marxist resentment and jalousie in people.

"viable cultures"

obviously they weren't all that "viable" if they couldn't resist Cortez and his strong but tiny band of Iron Men. the question is nugatory to the point of vulgarity.

[M.Dancer]

obviously they weren't all that "viable" if they couldn't resist Cortez and his strong but tiny band of Iron Men. the question is nugatory to the point of vulgarity.

Yet they remain and Cortez is History...The ridiculousness of the lictor's statement can be demonstrated by replacing the players.

...obviously the Poles weren't all that "viable" if they couldn't resist Hitler and his strong but tiny band of Iron Men.

[lictor616]

Yet they remain and Cortez is History...The ridiculousness of the lictor's statement can be demonstrated by replacing the players.

...obviously the Poles weren't all that "viable" if they couldn't resist Hitler and his strong but tiny band of Iron Men.

specious nonsense argument- the revolting tribal mores of the Teotihuacan, as well as the Moctezuma, Machu Picchu, the Aztecs... none of these cultures remain.

Meanwhile, I was in Gdansk, Lublin and Mazury lake 3 years back .... they still seem to speak their own language, eat similar meals and yes ... their culture has survived ... it was oppressed, subjugated beaten down but it persists today with NO BREAKS in its linear path.

[lictor616]

Yet they remain and Cortez is History...The ridiculousness of the lictor's statement can be demonstrated by replacing the players.

...obviously the Poles weren't all that "viable" if they couldn't resist Hitler and his strong but tiny band of Iron Men.

you get points for actually trying to show me through A and B how my statement was incorrect though...

Usually you would have simply rejected out of hand and produced a comment like:

"lictor, your argument is ridiculous"... end of comment.

[tango]

Even if true I doubt their presence was continuous. I am willing to agree that the FN's probably were the first continuous inhabitants, but I do believe that smallpox, not murder, destroyed them numerically and culturally.

Smallpox can be murder, if boatloads and wagonloads of infected blankets are delivered to Indigenous communities by missionaries and soldiers, as reported in Indigenous oral histories, during the 100 year conquest of the Americas - ie, throughout the 1500's.

Edited April 21, 2009 by tango

[M.Dancer]

[quote name='lictor616' date='Apr 21 2009, 01:38 PM' post='412303'

"lictor, your argument is ridiculous"... end of comment.

It wasn't done for your benefit....and your argument contains the intellectual depth of a pamphlet

[lictor616]

[quote name='lictor616' date='Apr 21 2009, 01:38 PM' post='412303'

"lictor, your argument is ridiculous"... end of comment.

It wasn't done for your benefit....and your argument contains the intellectual depth of a pamphlet

you didn't respond to my previous comment on your silly comparison to Poland...

that comment of yours had the intellectual depth of a windshield flier.

Edited April 21, 2009 by lictor616

[M.Dancer]

specious nonsense argument- the revolting tribal mores of the Teotihuacan, as well as the Moctezuma, Machu Picchu, the Aztecs... none of these cultures remain.

Nonsense. The Amerindian feel and flavour of South America is pervasive and apparent to anyone with half a brain. It has evolved, morphed and thrived with no linear breaks either.

The difference with Poland is, we killed the Nazis for the benefit of Polish Culture.