1491, or, Was Pre-European "White Man" America Really

[M.Dancer]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Syphillis was introduced to Europe through contact with North/South American Indians and that it was pretty well the only infectious disease that was passed in that direction.

there is still a debate and it has 3 sides.

The one I find most reasonable is there were once 2 strain of syp, the most virulent being the new world. The old world seemed to be a much milder form than today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syphilis

[old_bold&cold]

I have my stories straight. You think I am talking about these legions dieing quickly and I am saying no they first suffer from the affects of painful urination and frequent urinary infections. Then if they want to be cured, at that time it required them to be infected by a high fever illness that would take days to work and small risk of death. If they do not get cured they will then bring home to wife and family etc etc . There were no cures other then high fever at this time. This would affect the legions and yes while it may not stop them, it was designed to harm them.

You take exception to this because you think that due to religious ideals that these woman would be scourged by the main stream population, and yes they were of course. That same dumb reasoning is why they still stone a girl who gets raped in some countries, and yes the jews of that time were slaves of the Rome, and Rome could not care one bit about the religious values they had. They were their playthings, and nothing more. They only extists at the will of Rome. But hey you do not find the jewish people using this to highlight their lives. Of course these were dark times.

I really did not think that I will have to prove this but I will take some time and prove this. But I will have to wait and speak to a jewish religious scholar friend, as we have talked about this before, and he being and ex-rabbi and religious scholar is far more informed then me as to where I can find proof of this, but I will get back to you on this.

[M.Dancer]

You take exception to this because you think that due to religious ideals that these woman would be scourged by the main stream population, and yes they were of course.

I take exception to this because it is not history.

The examples you mention...bringing it hoime to their wives? Do you know how long a Roman enlistment was? How long they could expect to be away from home? No, obviously.

I'm not even going to bother to find out what time line you see this happening....during Vespasian or whatever. Mainly becasue it is irrelevant.

Find even one contemporay source that mentions it in passing.......

Meanwhile in Masada The Popular Front for the Liberation Of the Judean Peoples plot how to make the Roman pee hurt......

[ScottSA]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Syphillis was introduced to Europe through contact with North/South American Indians and that it was pretty well the only infectious disease that was passed in that direction.

As to the blanket debate, Europeans did not originally know that they were the ones passing small pox on, but as soon as they put it together there were many cases of what were thought to be "tainted" blankets being passed. Whether or not infection passed with these blankets is another thing. As stated before, smallpox probably wasn't passed on in this manner, but there certainly was an effort to. Rather, the continued interactions with Europeans for trade etc...would have been the cause of transmission.

I always wondered how these crafty Europeans knew all about how to infect the Indians decades before they figured out how disease transmission worked. But hey, that's probably just me. This "genocide" nonsense is just another attempt to smear whitey for trying to help. Sort of like the residential schools, which in real life were an attempt to drag Indians out of the stone age and integrate them with the current century. Of course they turned out to be wrong, because Indian "leaders" would rather see their people sink into the squalor of reservations and handouts than stand on their own two feet.

[jawapunk]

That is an extremely offenive response ScottSa. I'm not sure I would make a statement like that...ever. I am glad you are not a politician or anyone who holds political power. That kind of sentiment is not going to help any healthy debate and it seems like you are looking for a flame war perhaps?

[kengs333]

I see no evidence of that being anything more than an urban myth. Discovery also air documenatries on theLoch Ness Monster.....I have read Josephus and Tacitus, and others and have never come across anything remotely like this. What's more, where as sexual mores may have been plastic in the mediterannium, amongst the Jews they were very very strict. Sending out a girl to prostitute herself would be a death sentance for her and shame for the family.

The only refence I can think of was J remarking that those with a venereal disease were not allowed in the temple.

No, I don't buy it at all.

So what if you're read Josephus and Tacitus. Have you read anything about the ancient world that hasn't been published by Penguin Classics?

There are references to prostitutes in the New Testament; are you suggesting that these women were not Jews? It's bad enough that we have a couple of people on here who spout off overly idealized nonsense about Indians, do we have to start with this kind of bs as well?

[kengs333]

That is an extremely offenive response ScottSa. I'm not sure I would make a statement like that...ever. I am glad you are not a politician or anyone who holds political power. That kind of sentiment is not going to help any healthy debate and it seems like you are looking for a flame war perhaps?

You may want to elaborate on what exactly was offensive about the post.

[jawapunk]

Can you elaborate on what wasn't offensive? The insinuation that our aboriginal populations are still in the stone age, or the insinuation that they somehow require our "divine" light to guide them to civilization. These don't seem offensive to the extreme to you?

Do you honestly believe, looking back on history that there has been no wrong doing by European powers and then continued by all governments in the western hemisphere against native populations?

[Canadian Blue]

This "genocide" nonsense is just another attempt to smear whitey for trying to help. Sort of like the residential schools, which in real life were an attempt to drag Indians out of the stone age and integrate them with the current century. Of course they turned out to be wrong, because Indian "leaders" would rather see their people sink into the squalor of reservations and handouts than stand on their own two feet.

When did sexual, physical, and emotional abuse, all seem to translate into how the whites were good and the Natives bad?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/aborigin...ialschools.html

[kengs333]

Can you elaborate on what wasn't offensive? The insinuation that our aboriginal populations are still in the stone age, or the insinuation that they somehow require our "divine" light to guide them to civilization. These don't seem offensive to the extreme to you?

Do you honestly believe, looking back on history that there has been no wrong doing by European powers and then continued by all governments in the western hemisphere against native populations?

I believe the onus is on you to elaborate, not for me to answer your questions.

I think that the issue isn't that they supposed still are "still in the stone age" but that many were living a lifestyle that no longer was viable in the modern world, and the Government tried to rectify this problem as best as they could. In hindsight, how it was undertaken may have seemed harsh, but ask anyone who went to school in Canada in the 1920s-1950s, and they'll tell you it wasn't always pleasant. I have watched interviews of Indians in which they admit that they never suffered the abuses that are usually highlighted whenever the Residential School issue is discussed; for most people, the trauma stems from being seperated from their parents and not being allowed to speak their langauge. Not all that nice, but let's face it the options they had were not all that great; either live in poverty on a reserve, unable to read, write, or function in a modern society; or live out in the bush, unable to read, write, function in a modern society, and try to subsist off of hunting. For anyone who has studied the lifestyle of the Cree, Ojibway, etc. in the North, their traditional lifestyle often resulted in starvation because of natural cycles in game availability, changing migratory patterns, the hunter's abilities. It was not a pleasant way to live. It's almost guarenteed that had Canada not made attempts to educate the Indians, then we'd probably be sitting here arguing about how unjust the Canadian government had been for not trying to improve the standard of life for the Indians. Let's not forget that the right to an education is something that all people should have; education is the key to a person's ability to better themself, and to deny that right to someone in the west would be considered a violation of one's human rights, wouldn't you agree? Yet deny their people the right to education is something that many Indian groups did for quite some time before the government stepped in and foce a change.

[jennie]

I think that the issue isn't that they supposed still are "still in the stone age" but that many were living a lifestyle that no longer was viable in the modern world, and the Government tried to rectify this problem as best as they could.

.......

Let's not forget that the right to an education is something that all people should have; education is the key to a person's ability to better themself, and to deny that right to someone in the west would be considered a violation of one's human rights, wouldn't you agree? Yet deny their people the right to education is something that many Indian groups did for quite some time before the government stepped in and foce a change.

Hunh? Who denied whom what? please ...

Nobody denies that education is key, but substandard and abusive education is not helpful and students who failed to give up their own language or ways were singled out for abuse and some of them 'disappeared'. It is the quality of education and care in provided in residential schools that is in question. The federal government mandated, funded and supervised the schools, according to federal policies.

[M.Dancer]

.......................do we have to start with this kind of bs as well?

Get back to me when you having something to offer other than a drive by busllshitting, as you so eloquently say.

In other words, if you have a citation for the OBC's claim, go ahead and post it.

[jbg]

Syphilis is known to have occurred in the ancient world; thus according to jennie-logic, it also must have happened that it was used in biological warfare.

Clearly, when the isolation of various peoples ended, both sides diseases spread with a vengence. This was not deliberate, but obviously shaped human habitation of the globe. Some don't understand that certain things happen by accident.

In other words, sh* happens.

[kengs333]

Hunh? Who denied whom what? please ...

Nobody denies that education is key, but substandard and abusive education is not helpful and students who failed to give up their own language or ways were singled out for abuse and some of them 'disappeared'. It is the quality of education and care in provided in residential schools that is in question. The federal government mandated, funded and supervised the schools, according to federal policies.

Many people who attended residential schools became lawyers, doctors, academics, businessmen. They were given opportunities that they would not have had their parents and elders been able to force them to maintain their "traditional" way of life. I'm not saying that the residential schools were as great as they could have been, but again I'm wondering just how suffering can be quantified and proven to be greater than that of other Canadian school children. I was certainly miserable when I was in school and I've yet to get over it, but the chances of me getting compensation is nil. (There's also the fact I belong to an ethnic group that is the victim of the greatest case of genocide in Canadian history. Again, no componsation, not even an apology.) Like I said, we'd probably be sitting here debating the the unjust behaviour of the Canadian government for not having extended education to Indians had they not established residential schools.

[kengs333]

Get back to me when you having something to offer other than a drive by busllshitting, as you so eloquently say.

In other words, if you have a citation for the OBC's claim, go ahead and post it.

I don't recall ever typing "drive by busllshitting" in any of my posts, ever. Please refrain from using explicit profanity.

[M.Dancer]

I don't recall ever typing "drive by busllshitting" in any of my posts, ever. Please refrain from using explicit profanity.

Oh you poor thing.....so delicate

Get back to me when you have someting to add otherwise piddle off.....

[kengs333]

Oh you poor thing.....so delicate

Get back to me when you have someting to add otherwise piddle off.....

Seeing that you never have anything valid or worthwhile to contribute, I suggest you follow your own crude advice.

[M.Dancer]

Seeing that you never have anything valid or worthwhile to contribute, I suggest you follow your own crude advice.

So you don't have any sources to back up the claim that syph was used as a weapon?

Now why did you enter that argument again, because......?

Righto.

[AngusThermopyle]

O'kay, I'll add to this discussion. Yes indeed it was used as a weapon. Its the earliest known iteration of the "Honey Pot" trap. Generally the women used were considered prostitutes and as such were to be used at the discretion of those who controlled them.

And yes, there were and still are Jewish prostitutes, I fail to see what is so unbelievable about the existence of a Jewish prostitute.

Interesting to note that this technique is still being used to this day in the Congo. The difference being that it is men raping women in order to spread the disease (among others).

Lyme disease is a very close relative and it too was purposefully spread in order to cause physical infermity blindness and death.

Edited to add the bit about the Congo and Lyme disease.

Edited October 5, 2007 by AngusThermopyle

[kengs333]

So you don't have any sources to back up the claim that syph was used as a weapon?

Now why did you enter that argument again, because......?

Righto.

You've clearly missed the point; I'm using "jennie-logic".

[jennie]

Many people who attended residential schools became lawyers, doctors, academics, businessmen. They were given opportunities that they would not have had their parents and elders been able to force them to maintain their "traditional" way of life. I'm not saying that the residential schools were as great as they could have been, but again I'm wondering just how suffering can be quantified and proven to be greater than that of other Canadian school children.

I was certainly miserable when I was in school and I've yet to get over it, but the chances of me getting compensation is nil. (There's also the fact I belong to an ethnic group that is the victim of the greatest case of genocide in Canadian history. Again, no componsation, not even an apology.) Like I said, we'd probably be sitting here debating the the unjust behaviour of the Canadian government for not having extended education to Indians had they not established residential schools.

Well my apologies for the genocide. Will you explain?

The primary purpose of the residential schools was to deculture the children by terrorizing them into submission to Christianity: On pain of severe punishment they must not speak their language, sing their songs, pray their prayers. Many of those who did not submit or 'slipped up' simply disappeared. Those who did not 'comply' were used as labour instead of attending classes. Sexual abuse was a form of torture and terrorizing, enslavement. It is unfortunate that the federal policies allowed for very high death rates in the schools, 30-70%, averaging 50% or higher for several decades. Canada did not have a law against genocide until 2000, 4 years after the last school closed. There is a 2hr excellent documentary on this topic. Let me know if you are interested and I'll find the link.

[kengs333]

Well my apologies for the genocide. Will you explain?

The primary purpose of the residential schools was to deculture the children by terrorizing them into submission to Christianity: On pain of severe punishment they must not speak their language, sing their songs, pray their prayers.

Yet again, I ask how can one quantify the suffering of these children and prove that it was any worse than what other Canadian children went through at the time. Part of the purpose of the educational system is to get children to conform to a certain worldview. How is it that children who were forced to give up their German, Ukrainian, Japanese language are not accorded the same sympathy?

Many of those who did not submit or 'slipped up' simply disappeared. Those who did not 'comply' were used as labour instead of attending classes.

This is outright nonsense. Children did not "simply disappear" because the "slipped up". What utter nonsense.

Sexual abuse was a form of torture and terrorizing, enslavement.

As if the previous statement wasn't nonsensical enough, you have to suggest that sexual abuse was a deliberate tactic to force the children to "submit". Spoken like a true radical feminist. Anybody with a ration understanding of reality knows that sexual abuse is the exception to the norm, and that it stems from the individual's deviance. Sexual abuse/deviancy is a sin, is wrong, and should happen to noone under no circumstances.

It is unfortunate that the federal policies allowed for very high death rates in the schools, 30-70%, averaging 50% or higher for several decades.

This is an outrageous distortion of the truth. Seventy percent? I highly doubt it. Show me evidence of one cemetery where these sorts of numbers can be substantiated. Where are the mass graves that would result from such death rates?

The fact of the matter is that the children who died would have come down with diseases that non-Indian children did at the time. You can go through the obit section of any major newspaper from the 1930s, 40s, 50s, and you'll see a fair number for school age children--numbers that would be alarming nowadays. But medical technology wasn't as advanced as it is now.

Let's keep in mind that the government went to great lengths to fly out ill children from isolated camps, settlements in the Canadian North to provide them with medical treatments which their traditional lifestyle could not afford them. And let's not forget that living in the bush was a precarious existence; subsisting on game does not exactly make for a decent lifestyle, and often meant starvation, an early death, living in unsanitary conditions. Women whe experienced complications in childbirth often died, infant mortality rates were quite high.

Canada did not have a law against genocide until 2000, 4 years after the last school closed. There is a 2hr excellent documentary on this topic. Let me know if you are interested and I'll find the link.

No thanks, I'm quite certain it's just one-sided propaganda.

[M.Dancer]

You've clearly missed the point; I'm using "jennie-logic".

Right over my head.

[ScottSA]

Many of those who did not submit or 'slipped up' simply disappeared.

[Black Dog]

The devastation wrought by smallpox and other European diseases and the deliberate policy of expulsion and genocide of North America's natives are really two seperate matters.

Edited October 10, 2007 by Black Dog