Options for Israel

[cybercoma]

You're comparing isolated incidents of kidnappers to an entire islamo-fascist movement in the middle east that threatens the hegemony of a nation and the survival of an entire ethnicity of people?

I think a better oversimplified example would be if I were to torture and murder one of your children, then tell you that you have to give me your home or I'll torture and murder more of your family. The negotiation from the police in that case would be, "when we find you, you're going to jail."

[Black Dog]

The thread topic is options for Israel. The only option they have is to eradicate terrorism from the middle east, because Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Qaeda and others have made it clear that the bloodshed will not end until all the Jews are eliminated and Israel is returned to Islam.

Anybody wanna place bets on the probability of this (radicating terrorism) happening? I mean, it's one thing to say X needs too be done, but if you can't do X, you need to consider other options. Israel will not disarm Hizbullah through force of arms alone. They've tried in the past and they've been trying fo rthe last three weeks and all they've done is pissed people off and driven more people to Hizbullah's side. There has to be another way. Also: let's cease the pointless and patently false characterization of this conflict as some sort of existensial struggle by Israel. If Hizbullah or Hamas possessed the means to destroy Israel, they wouldn't be fussing about with katyusha rockets and waging a low level urban guerrilla war in their own territory. None of the measures you mention jeapordize Israel's existence as a nation.

Now if you want to negotiate with them and show them that those tactics will get you to sit at the bargaining table, I feel sorry for the world you would create after that. Rewarding that kind of behaviour is just plain stupid.

Again: if force won't do the job (or at least the kind of force at one's dispiosal: genocide, to some's disapointment, is off the table), what's left?

[Wilber]

I believe nature is God. We are simply part of nature, nothing more nothing less.

Wikipedia

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is a lack of belief in a deity or deities: the opposite of theism. This encompasses both people who assert that there are no gods and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not. Narrower definitions of atheism typically regard as atheists only those people who assert the nonexistence of gods, leaving other nonbelievers classified as agnostics or non-theists.

Atheist or Agnostic?

[cybercoma]

The thread topic is options for Israel. The only option they have is to eradicate terrorism from the middle east, because Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Qaeda and others have made it clear that the bloodshed will not end until all the Jews are eliminated and Israel is returned to Islam.

Anybody wanna place bets on the probability of this (radicating terrorism) happening? I mean, it's one thing to say X needs too be done, but if you can't do X, you need to consider other options. Israel will not disarm Hizbullah through force of arms alone. They've tried in the past and they've been trying fo rthe last three weeks and all they've done is pissed people off and driven more people to Hizbullah's side. There has to be another way. Also: let's cease the pointless and patently false characterization of this conflict as some sort of existensial struggle by Israel. If Hizbullah or Hamas possessed the means to destroy Israel, they wouldn't be fussing about with katyusha rockets and waging a low level urban guerrilla war in their own territory. None of the measures you mention jeapordize Israel's existence as a nation.

Now if you want to negotiate with them and show them that those tactics will get you to sit at the bargaining table, I feel sorry for the world you would create after that. Rewarding that kind of behaviour is just plain stupid.

Again: if force won't do the job (or at least the kind of force at one's dispiosal: genocide, to some's disapointment, is off the table), what's left?

It doesn't mean a thing that they don't have the means to destroy Israel. It's their stated intention to destroy Israel and they simply do not recognize it as a state. If they had the means to wipe Israel off the map, they would...that's not news.

Who says force won't do the job? Do you know that for a fact?

Besides, who are you to say that Israel shouldn't defend itself or its people because it will "piss off the terrorists." Good. I hope the terrorists are pissed. I'm sick of people trying to sit them on the freudian couch, figure out their "root" reasons for being deplorable murderers and suggesting we give them everything they want.

The terrorists will not be satisfied until Israel is GONE. Israel has every right to exist as a peaceful nation without the threat of Hezbollah, Hamas or anyone else murdering and torturing its people. Israel has every right to fight back against this oppression and if that creates even more terrorists then they deserve to be dealt with in the same manner as the rest of the terrorists.

Drea and you suggesting that this means genocide is to say that all muslims will become terrorists and that couldn't be more absurd. Israel wants an end to violence, but it wants Hezbollah to be put in check and disarmed by the Lebanese government. Seriously, is that too much to ask?

[Rue]

Black Dog has responded by making a statement that it is a myth to suggest that the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah threaten Israel's existence. It is statements like that-these simplistic, sweeping, subjective statements that absolutely floor me.

I say this because at this point I find it hard to believe Black Dog has not read the constitutions of Hamas or Hezbollah or is unaware that both terrorist cells have made it clear their agenda is to kill Jews world-wide and kill as many Jews as possible in Israel as well as anyone else in Israel, until Israel as a nation ceases to exist.

That is the point. Hezbollah and Hamas clearly and explicitly have stated and defined as their very purpose that they are in existence to kill each and every single Israeli Jew unless they leave the Middle East.

The rocket attacks into Israel, the repeated continuous attacks on civilians as well as this stated belief, are blatantly an existential threat to Israel.

I would love to have Black Dog explain how shooting missiles into unarmed civilian centres is not an existential threat. I would love for Black Dog to explain how kidnapping innocent civilians and torturing and killing them is not an existential threat. I want to know how stating and I quote; " we will not stop until each and every Jew is removed" which is a direct quote from Hezbollah's leader, is not an existential threat.

Such sweeping statements are past the point of absurd. In my opinion they are deliberately provocative and this is precisely why I criticize Black Dog. In my opinion they infer that Hezbollah and Hamas are not a threat to anyone and that the missile attacks and suffering from previous terrorist actions can be written off and dismissed as inconsequential.

No Israel does not have the option to negotiate with someone who says it will kill them the moment it gets a chance. No one in that position has an option and that is precisely why it is important neutral third parties step in and when I say neutral I do not mean a UN force that assists Hezbollah by looking the other way while it remains militarized and uses the South of Lebanon as a terrorist launching pad or is able to engage in war tactics that deliberately use UN posts and civilians as shields to hide behind.

[Wilber]

The Jews thought they could reason with the Nazis. Now they know better. When someone says they are out to exterminate them, they are taken at face value and treated accordingly.

[cybercoma]

A great post on another forum about this conflict:

I just feel bad for the civilians. Hezbollah knows that Isreal can track and locate the launch points of these rockets, they also know Isreal will bomb those sites as soon as they can.

KNOWING this, they intentionally fire rockets from locations loaded with civillians... knowing the isreal will kill civilians in the process.

obviously they cant win militarily, they are just trying to get a political win out of this.

only allah knows what goes on in their f***ed up brains, maybe they hope to rally all the muslims together or some s***.

[Argus]

The thread topic is options for Israel. The only option they have is to eradicate terrorism from the middle east, because Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Qaeda and others have made it clear that the bloodshed will not end until all the Jews are eliminated and Israel is returned to Islam.

Anybody wanna place bets on the probability of this (radicating terrorism) happening? I mean, it's one thing to say X needs too be done, but if you can't do X, you need to consider other options. Israel will not disarm Hizbullah through force of arms alone. They've tried in the past and they've been trying fo rthe last three weeks and all they've done is pissed people off and driven more people to Hizbullah's side. There has to be another way.

Yes, they should stop being so gentle. They can drive Hezbollah out, the same way they drove the PLO out. and if that means tearing about half of Lebanon - well, okay. I simply have no sympathy for the Lebanese Muslims.

Again: if force won't do the job (or at least the kind of force at one's dispiosal: genocide, to some's disapointment, is off the table), what's left?

I wish people would stop with the ridiculous exagerations. No one has proposed genocide. Nor are the Israelis carrynig it out. But shoving the Lebanese thirty klicks back from the border and razing everything within that area is certainly possible. And entirely morally justified if there's no other way for Israel to stop those rockets from being fired into Israel.

One must remember that death and destruction are, essentially, the state's ultimate enforcement mechanisms. Don't believe me? Refuse to pay a parking ticket. Resist strongly enough and, ultimately, the state will kill you. Each level of increased resistance on your part will lead to an escalation in force by the state until it gets its way or kills you.

Israel MUST stop those rockets from coming across its borders. It tried low level action. That didn't work, so it will have to increase the force level until it achieves its ends. If ultimately that leads to sterilizing the land around its borders, or even attacking Iran and Syria to keep them from supplying Hezbollah, and wreaking havoc to every state which touches its borders, then it will have to do that.

[cybercoma]

Here's something else that gets me.

Lebanon says, "ok ok! We'll take care of things! We'll send the military down there and disarm them, with international help. Just pull out all your troops."

They haven't done it up to this point and there are 3 ministers in their government FROM hezbollah. The international help has been out there, watching rockets fly and not doing a damn thing about it.

I highly doubt they're going to get things under control. They'll negotiate the prisoner swap, they'll occupy the south with their military, then things will be quiet for awhile.

Next thing you know, rockets will begin flying over the border again. Civilians in Israel will be murdered and tortured....and all the people who are complaining about Israel's tactics now will remain silent.

Israel will lash out again, with even more force than we're seeing this time....and people will start crying about Israel.

Argh.

[GostHacked]

I dunno there cybercoma

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...483-601,00.html

Here is what one general said (no names?? boo)

"We are now in a process of renewed escalation," a senior general defence staff officer said. "We will continue hitting everything that moves in Hezbollah, but we will also hit strategic civilian infrastructure."

http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=1146482006

"I have given an order that in the event that the diplomatic process does not end [successfully], the Israel Defence Forces will carry out the required operation of taking control of the rocket launching sites to reduce the firing of rockets and bring the citizens of Israel out of the shelters," the defence minister, Amir Peretz, told the Knesset legislators. According to Army Radio, Mr Peretz gave as little as 48 hours for the diplomacy to succeed, a deadline that would be nearly impossible to meet.

The Lebanese Army cannot handle the effort alone. Personaly I am not sure I would send in my troops to battle Hezbollah when you have continuous air strikes from Israel in the south of Lebanon. That means I need to worry about Hezbollah and Israel firing upon you. I doubt the IFD would even be able to distinguish between the two.

[cybercoma]

I was just kinda speculating if Israel were to agree.

Personally, I think the Lebanese government is a joke. They had all the time in the world to establish themselves after Israel pulled out years ago. Instead, there's members of Hezbollah working within the government. The UN could've kept peace by working towards disarming islamo-fascist militants in the middle east, but they haven't and certainly don't plan to anytime soon.

So, now Israel has been forced to take matters into their own hands. They don't want to be in Lebanon anymore than the Lebanese want them to be in Lebanon. Israel needs to be in Lebanon to save it's people from being indiscriminately murdered.

I'm sure they'll pull out as soon as Lebanon can demonstrate control over Hezbollah.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear cybercoma,

I wish people would stop with the ridiculous exagerations. No one has proposed genocide.

I have. If you can't eliminate an idea, you have to eliminate the people that think it. Something to keep in mind, even if I don't wish it.

Black Dog know this to be true, and that it will only work if brutally and ruthlessly applied. Half measures won't work You can't just kill some of the people with the idea, (and wounding countless others in the process), because the others that have been wounded (or 'wronged') will often take up the same idea.

By this choice of course of action, Israel is creating more enemies than they started out with.

[geoffrey]

Israel MUST stop those rockets from coming across its borders. It tried low level action. That didn't work, so it will have to increase the force level until it achieves its ends. If ultimately that leads to sterilizing the land around its borders, or even attacking Iran and Syria to keep them from supplying Hezbollah, and wreaking havoc to every state which touches its borders, then it will have to do that.

Or, an even better solution. Have the IDF assist the peaceful Lebanese government in removing Hezbollah from their country, without bombing apartment complexes and destroying all the bridges and roadways in the country.

How is the Lebanese Army supposed to move about to destroy Hezbollah with no roads, no airports, no bridges?

Israel is destroying the very means for Lebanon to deal with a problem it initally didn't even have the power to fight.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear geoffrey,

Or, an even better solution. Have the IDF assist the peaceful Lebanese government in removing Hezbollah from their country, without bombing apartment complexes and destroying all the bridges and roadways in the country.

That option was always on the table for the Lebanese gov't, but they never chose to take it.

[cybercoma]

Or, an even better solution. Have the IDF assist the peaceful Lebanese government in removing Hezbollah from their country, without bombing apartment complexes and destroying all the bridges and roadways in the country.

How is the Lebanese Army supposed to move about to destroy Hezbollah with no roads, no airports, no bridges?

Israel is destroying the very means for Lebanon to deal with a problem it initally didn't even have the power to fight.

The Lebanese government hasn't bothered getting rid of Hezbollah over the last 6 years since Israel pulled out. They dont' want to disarm Hezbollah and as a matter of fact they have 3 members of Hezbollah as ministers in their government. Now that Syria has left Lebanon, they still did nothing to stop Hezbollah from operating in the south. When IDF forces get kidnapped and rockets are fired into the North, Israel decides to strike back.

The reason they destroyed bridges and airports was to trap Hezbollah, so they can't mobilize or receive arms shipments. Now the ground assault will go into these terroritories and take over the sites where rockets are being fired this way the people in Northern Israel can stop worrying about being attacked. After that the IDF will go door to door looking for Hezbollah, no doubt.

Lebanon had its chance to deal with Hezbollah, but they didn't and since the terrorists were murdering innocent civilians in Israel the Israelis had to take it upon themselves to stop it.

[Rue]

Israel MUST stop those rockets from coming across its borders. It tried low level action. That didn't work, so it will have to increase the force level until it achieves its ends. If ultimately that leads to sterilizing the land around its borders, or even attacking Iran and Syria to keep them from supplying Hezbollah, and wreaking havoc to every state which touches its borders, then it will have to do that.

Or, an even better solution. Have the IDF assist the peaceful Lebanese government in removing Hezbollah from their country, without bombing apartment complexes and destroying all the bridges and roadways in the country.

How is the Lebanese Army supposed to move about to destroy Hezbollah with no roads, no airports, no bridges?

Israel is destroying the very means for Lebanon to deal with a problem it initally didn't even have the power to fight.

Are you serious? Do you read? The Lebanese Army supports Hezbollah. The Lebanese government supports Hezbollah. The Lebanese Army and government fully accepted and supported Hezbollah remaining as a military terrorist force in its South. Some would say it had no choice. Some would say with 70,000 troops and 60% of the population not agreeing with Hezbollah it had a moral choice but abandoned its sovereignty due to a whole myriad of reasons including Syrian and Iranian pressure and internal coruption.

Whatever the case may be part of this very problem is caused by the Lebanese army and government supporting Hezbollah so your comment that the Lebanese army can't move about to destroy Hezbollah is embarassing and shows your complete lack of awareness as to what is going on.

More to the point if there ar eno roads or airports, Hezbollah's supply lines are cut off. That is the point. In war, to defeat your enemy the first thing you do is cut their supply lines. Nothing complex about that concept but if your supply lines are also the same supply lines that equip civilians and you choose to use civilian routes with the full permission and authority of its government for terrorist activities, that is where you have the problem.

[Argus]

Disarm the terrorists or kill them all...I don't really care which. That's the only way this is going to end.

Kill them all and the moderates become terrorists.

Then we kill them all too. I don't really care either.

You advocate killing all muslims?

That dear, is hatred. Pure white-hot hatred.

Isn't that illegal here in Canada? To spew your hatred?

Oh that's riiiiiiight, it's only hatred if it's directed towards a group "other than" muslims.

YOU SAID: If you kill all the terrorists the moderates will become terrorists.

I SAID: Okay, then we'll kill them too.

Most people would not require a further explanation, but as it's you I'm dealing with I will point out the obvious point here was that if the so-called moderates of which you speak turn to terrorism because of their great anger at us killing terrorists, well then, they can be dealt with in the same way.

I have to wonder at the mentality of "moderates" who will be angered at the killing of terrorism, however.

Why don't you help me out. You can start by explaining your own great sympathy for terrorists, and why their deaths make you angry.

[Argus]

Dear cybercoma,

I wish people would stop with the ridiculous exagerations. No one has proposed genocide.

I have. If you can't eliminate an idea, you have to eliminate the people that think it. Something to keep in mind, even if I don't wish it.

Black Dog know this to be true, and that it will only work if brutally and ruthlessly applied. Half measures won't work You can't just kill some of the people with the idea, (and wounding countless others in the process), because the others that have been wounded (or 'wronged') will often take up the same idea.

By this choice of course of action, Israel is creating more enemies than they started out with.

I don't see how. Everyone there hated them to begin with.

[Argus]

Israel MUST stop those rockets from coming across its borders. It tried low level action. That didn't work, so it will have to increase the force level until it achieves its ends. If ultimately that leads to sterilizing the land around its borders, or even attacking Iran and Syria to keep them from supplying Hezbollah, and wreaking havoc to every state which touches its borders, then it will have to do that.

Or, an even better solution. Have the IDF assist the peaceful Lebanese government in removing Hezbollah from their country, without bombing apartment complexes and destroying all the bridges and roadways in the country.

Would that not require a level of cooperation which the Lebanese Army is incapable of?

As I understand it, the main reason the Lebanese Army has failed to confront Hezbollah is that a substantial portion of the Lebanese army are so sympathetic to them that a confrontation would result in civil war as they defect to the other side.

Given that, I have to doubt their value in preventing Hezbollah from attacking Israel.

[Black Dog]

Who says force won't do the job? Do you know that for a fact?

Obviously not. But there's no reason to think Israel will be able to disarm or ebven seriously damage a well-established and well organized a group as Hizbullah.

Besides, who are you to say that Israel shouldn't defend itself or its people because it will "piss off the terrorists." Good. I hope the terrorists are pissed. I'm sick of people trying to sit them on the freudian couch, figure out their "root" reasons for being deplorable murderers and suggesting we give them everything they want.

I never said Israel shouldn't defend itself. Quite the opposite. What I'm asking for is realistic solutions. You need to show that there is some way in which Israel could actually root out Hezbollah. If they can't, then you need another option other than a course of action that does not root out Hezbollah, but that does kill hundreds of people, send hundreds of thousands fleeing for their lives, inflict billions of dollars in damage, and risk toppling a very fragile democracy.

Drea and you suggesting that this means genocide is to say that all muslims will become terrorists and that couldn't be more absurd. Israel wants an end to violence, but it wants Hezbollah to be put in check and disarmed by the Lebanese government. Seriously, is that too much to ask?

Apparently, yes.

Rue:

The rocket attacks into Israel, the repeated continuous attacks on civilians as well as this stated belief, are blatantly an existential threat to Israel.

I would love to have Black Dog explain how shooting missiles into unarmed civilian centres is not an existential threat. I would love for Black Dog to explain how kidnapping innocent civilians and torturing and killing them is not an existential threat. I want to know how stating and I quote; " we will not stop until each and every Jew is removed" which is a direct quote from Hezbollah's leader, is not an existential threat.

Because though they possess the meas to kill individual Israelis, they don't have the means of destroying the state itself. It's not complicated.

Such sweeping statements are past the point of absurd. In my opinion they are deliberately provocative and this is precisely why I criticize Black Dog. In my opinion they infer that Hezbollah and Hamas are not a threat to anyone and that the missile attacks and suffering from previous terrorist actions can be written off and dismissed as inconsequential.

Again: they are dangerous groups that threaten innocent lives. They do not, contrary to the inflated rhetoric you and other Israel supporters use, pose a threat to Israel as a state. To argue that they do is to grossly overstate their capabilities.

Argus:

Israel MUST stop those rockets from coming across its borders. It tried low level action. That didn't work, so it will have to increase the force level until it achieves its ends. If ultimately that leads to sterilizing the land around its borders, or even attacking Iran and Syria to keep them from supplying Hezbollah, and wreaking havoc to every state which touches its borders, then it will have to do that.

Sure and dramatically increase the threat to Israeli lives, as well as the overall stability of the region. What good doe sit do to try and stop the rockets if tyou end up making the situation even worse?

[Drea]

Why don't you help me out. You can start by explaining your own great sympathy for terrorists, and why their deaths make you angry.

My own great sympathy for terrorists.

You say kill them all -- I say find out why they've become terrorists.

Why?

Perhaps once we understand what drives a person to commit atrocities then we can stop the initiation of NEW terrorists.

One can only defeat an enemy if one understands the enemy.

[Argus]

Why don't you help me out. You can start by explaining your own great sympathy for terrorists, and why their deaths make you angry.

My own great sympathy for terrorists.

You say kill them all -- I say find out why they've become terrorists.

Why?

Well, according to what you wrote earlier, killing terrorists is what causes "moderates" to become terrorists.

[Drea]

Why don't you help me out. You can start by explaining your own great sympathy for terrorists, and why their deaths make you angry.

My own great sympathy for terrorists.

You say kill them all -- I say find out why they've become terrorists.

Why?

Well, according to what you wrote earlier, killing terrorists is what causes "moderates" to become terrorists.

That is correct.

If you kill a man's brother, no matter what he has done, the man will be angry (and possibly kill you) at you, not at his brother the bad guy.

[jdobbin]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...i-campaign.html

Israel to bomb all moving vehicles in southern Lebanon.

[GostHacked]

The Lebanese government hasn't bothered getting rid of Hezbollah over the last 6 years since Israel pulled out. They dont' want to disarm Hezbollah and as a matter of fact they have 3 members of Hezbollah as ministers in their government. Now that Syria has left Lebanon, they still did nothing to stop Hezbollah from operating in the south. When IDF forces get kidnapped and rockets are fired into the North, Israel decides to strike back.

And just because Harper is my Prime Minister does not mean I voted for him, and he speaks for only half of the country. He does not speak for me. Those ministers were democraticly elected.

Also how the hell do you get your country together when you have Isreal causing shit, then pulling out in the 80s, and have Syria FSU for some time, then they pull out and Israel is back in. How the hell are you suposed to get a working government when the countries around you have their fingers in the pie?

Look they are not even caring anymore. Civilians are warned not to head outdoors or use vehicles to move around.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/08/...main/index.html

One of the leaflets, which a Lebanese Broadcasting Corp. reporter showed on the air, said that "terrorist elements ... are using you as human shields by launching rockets toward the state of Israel from your homes."

You realize Hezbollah gets in, fires off some rockets then gets out of the area before the F-16s come in. By the time Israel has fired, Hezbollah is long gone and you have massive civilian casutalties and sever damage to the country's overall infrastructure. Israel's tactics are not working. Israel is smarter than that. They have better training and top grade USofA imported weapon systems. They simply know better.

The translated leaflet continued, "All cars and of any type will be shelled if seen moving south of the Litani River because it will be considered a suspect of transferring rockets, military ammunitions and those causing destruction."

If you are outdoors in a car. You WILL BE TARGETED. This shows blatent disregard for the general population of Lebanon. Bombed back to the stone age indeed.