Israel invades Palestine

[theloniusfleabag]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5124872.stm

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/mideast_conflict

This has been in the news all day, but it seems 'extreme action', a very ominous sounding threat, might be right around the corner. Israel has nukes, would they use them over a kidnapped soldier (possibly in Syria) or has Olmert gone mad?

I often wondered why they didn't sent in tanks against Arafat and others, if they were determined to get them, but this action seems overblown, compared to previous actions/responses.

[Riverwind]

would they use them over a kidnapped soldier (possibly in Syria) or has Olmert gone mad?

I don't understand Isreal's reaction. The soldier would be just another anonymous causality of war if Hamas had simply killed him instead of kidknapping him.

[Shady]

would they use them over a kidnapped soldier (possibly in Syria)

I don't think they would. However, I think they want to send Syria a strong message about their support of groups like Hamas.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Shady,

I think they want to send Syria a strong message about their support of groups like Hamas

They did it to a certain degree, by threatening to strike some of the exiled Hamas leadership in Syria, and with a 'flyby' over the house of the Syrian President. They may yet strike targets in Syria, and Israel must be careful with how far they reach with this, lest the whole region erupt.

The soldier in question may already be dead (as is often the case in kidnappings when the net closes in), or the militants may keep him alive in a 'goodwill gesture', as using him as a bargaining tool is not on the map with Israel (and rightly so).

[theloniusfleabag]

Hmmm, this just in...

http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/News/World...rc=w062855A.xml

Israel seizes Palestinian deputy PM, legislators;

No matter how much Israel may not like it, Hamas was democratically elected. To seize the Deputy PM and other officials, in any other place in the world, would be an overt act of war.

Oddly, I haven't read what the US has had to say about this yet...(mind you, I haven't looked too hard yet either)

[August1991]

The Israelis have always responded forcefully to any hostage-taking, particularly where their soldiers are concerned. Hostages pose a horrible moral dilemma.

OTOH, the Israelis may be preparing to pull a Lebanon. Hamas and Hizballah resemble each other.

[BHS]

They did it to a certain degree, by threatening to strike some of the exiled Hamas leadership in Syria, and with a 'flyby' over the house of the Syrian President. They may yet strike targets in Syria, and Israel must be careful with how far they reach with this, lest the whole region erupt.

Uh, that's "one" of his palaces, not his house. And I'm pretty sure Israel knows how far they can go with this sort of thing.

The soldier in question may already be dead (as is often the case in kidnappings when the net closes in), or the militants may keep him alive in a 'goodwill gesture', as using him as a bargaining tool is not on the map with Israel (and rightly so).

Wrong. Israel has a long and consistant history of bargaining for kidnapped personnel. Prisoner exchanges happened numerous times throughout the intifadas. As likely as not this kidnapping was perpetrated with the hope of forcing another such exchange.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear BHS,

Uh, that's "one" of his palaces, not his house.

I stand corrected, on a coule of points here. I just read on BBC that it was one of his 'summer palaces'.

Wrong. Israel has a long and consistant history of bargaining for kidnapped personnel. Prisoner exchanges happened numerous times throughout the intifadas. As likely as not this kidnapping was perpetrated with the hope of forcing another such exchange.

Why such a different response from Israel this time? True, they have launched strikes before, and used 'collective punishment' through various means in the past, but this seems to be a rather extreme reaction to what you indicate might be a common occurance. I suppose the Palestinians could consider themselves lucky Uzi Landau isn't in charge.

[Drea]

THIS IS A SOLDIER! Who signed up expressly knowing he could be kidnapped or killed.

So Isreal blows up power plants and bridges! For pete sake -- over ONE soldier. Not the president, not a leader's child -- a soldier.

Isreal is going nuts and will likely nuke somebody soon. Crazy SOB's the lot of them (everyone in the Middle East is nuts -- could it be something in the water? LOL.)

[I miss Reagan]

Israel is the only state in the world that knows how to handle these people. Let's add a little context here. Israel turns over, as a gesture of good will and move towards peace, Gaza back to a people that openly teach hate and vow to push them into the sea. Immediately upon arriving in Gaza the Palestinians show their appreciation by burning down the synagogs left behind and shortly after start firing rockets into Israel.

Then they attack an Israeli outpost and kidnap a soldier, a old man, and execute an 18 year old kid just because. I think Israel has shown extraordinary restraint towards the leaders of Hamas.

[Argus]

would they use them over a kidnapped soldier (possibly in Syria) or has Olmert gone mad?

I don't understand Isreal's reaction. The soldier would be just another anonymous causality of war if Hamas had simply killed him instead of kidknapping him.

I think you are leaving aside the new factor involved here.

Hamas is not "just" a terrorist group. It is now the government, officially elected government of the Palestinian people. So this is not a case where "a terrorist group" kidnapped an Israeli soldier. It is a case where another government actually invaded Israel proper - note again, this was not done in the occupied territories and this was not an attack on a settlement - invaded Israel, attacked and killed Israeli soldiers, and kidnapped an Israeli soldier to take him back to their own country. This is, under any possible interpretation of international law you want to make, an outright act of war.

[Argus]

Hmmm, this just in...

http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/News/World...rc=w062855A.xml

Israel seizes Palestinian deputy PM, legislators;

No matter how much Israel may not like it, Hamas was democratically elected. To seize the Deputy PM and other officials, in any other place in the world, would be an overt act of war.

Hamas claimed it was involved in the attack on Israel. That makes them, if you want to go to international law, guilty of an act of war. Before, in almost all acts over the past few years, the Palestinian Authority could at least show some distance between them and whichever terrorist group had attacked Israel. That's not the case here. The actual Palestinian Authority has claimed it was involved. You don't get any closer to an act of war than that.

Remember, also, that this is not in isolation. Pressure on the Israeli government to act against Gaza has been building up steadily over the past months as the Palestinians continue to fire rockets into Israel proper.

There is no nation on Earth which would tolerate that for very long. I don't care how peaceful they are. The Swedes would have been bombing Denmark long since if this sort of thing were happening along their border and the Danes either could not or would not do anything to halt it.

[geoffrey]

Normally I'm pretty pro-Palestine, and I'm not really impressed with Israel, ever. I see Israel as very zionist, very self-righeous and dangerous to stability.

But in this case, they had to intervene. The government of a neighouring country is sponsoring and encouraging attacks across the border. This could be interpreted as an act of war, it is in the least, Israel's right to defend itself from this hostile government.

Palestine, you had it coming when you elected the nuts. Now the price will have to be paid apparently. Hopefully not too many people will die in the ensuing chaos.

[I miss Reagan]

There is no nation on Earth which would tolerate that for very long.

Ahem. I know of one....

[mcqueen625]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5124872.stm

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/mideast_conflict

This has been in the news all day, but it seems 'extreme action', a very ominous sounding threat, might be right around the corner. Israel has nukes, would they use them over a kidnapped soldier (possibly in Syria) or has Olmert gone mad?

I often wondered why they didn't sent in tanks against Arafat and others, if they were determined to get them, but this action seems overblown, compared to previous actions/responses.

The big difference between then and now is the fact that now Palestinians were stupid enough to elect a band of terrorists to govern them. Hamas is recognized around the world as a terrorist organization, and they have no diplomatic ties with either the West or the EU. Of course they seem to be recognized by Koffi Annan, because he is real good at overlooking suicide bombers blowing themselves up in crouds of Israeli women and children, but every time Israel tries to protect themselves he asks for restraint. Koffi sounds like most of the world leaders in the run-up to WW II, whci alloed Germany to walk over most of Europe and Africa before Hitler was stopped.

The Palestinians should feel lucky that Israel didn't declare the first rocket fired after the election and swearing in of Hamas as a declaration of war by Palestine against Israel and launch a full invasion on any country in the Middle East that is in callaberation with Hamas and supports their terrorist ways. As far as I'm concerned, Israel has just as much right to live peacefully in those lands as does the Palestinians because this land is ancestry land for both peoples. For Hamas or Iran to declare that Israel should be eliminayed off the face of the earth should be unacceptable to the whole world, and it is even more unconscionable for the UN and Koffi Annan to be taking sides in this matter.

[Rue]

Hamas is and has always been an umbrella organization made up of a loose knit of fundamenalist Muslims sponsored by Hezbollah in Syria (a proxy force for Iran and Shiite) and Syria (which although Sunni Muslim has aligned itself squarely with Iran).

Hamas came about partly because of Israel's tacit approval of its activities, hoping it would serve as an alternative to Arafat and the corupt PLO apparatus. At one point Israel tacitly looked the other waya s Hamas fought with the PLO hoping it would cause a change in PLO leadership. This never happened.

Now Hamas is pretty much like the Taliban. The Taliban at one point were useful to the Americans when they were referred to as mujahadeen and fighting the Russian Commies. Once the commies were out, they no longer had purpose. Such is the way in the Middle East. Today's puppet ally, i.e., Col. Nasser, Ghadafi, Hussein, Osama Ben Laden (when fighting commies) become tomorrow's enemy.

Hamas unlike the PLO was not founded by drug runners. Keep in mind Arafat was until the day he died a drug smuggler. That was his primary business. Hash hish, opium and cocaine. The PLO and freedom fighting was a convenient cover to protect his interests. Drugs and Middle East politics are inter-connected as is the case today with the Americans paying countless opium drug lords in Afghanistan.

Hamas is one of those unqiue fundamentalist religious forces that has nothing to do with drugs so whether they are capable of being corupted remains to be seen. Unlike most other Middle East leaders like Mubarak or Assad in Syria, they don't seem to be interested in money or personal power.

So they are a wild card. Their constitution is clear. They believe in the absolute and unconditional destruction of the State of Israel and the sending of all Israeli Jews to Europe.

They believe absolutely and unconditionally in violence against civilians as a method to express their political will.

They have no problem setting up ammunition factories and missile launching systems and ammunition sites in peoples' homes. They have no problem using young children to transport explosives and engage in

planting bombs. They have no problem using ambulances and hosptials as a cover for terrorist operations.

To Hamas, Israel is the enemy. But Hamas has other enemies. It does not distinguish Jews world-wide from Israeli Jews. It sees Jews as a people not just Israeli Jews, as the enemy of Islam.

It also believes Christians are enemies of all Muslims. It feels the same about Buddists and Hindus.

This is not a movement based on tolerance. It presents a vision of a Muslim state following very rigid, dogmatic fundamentalist beliefs.

Hamas is not some sort of populist democratic movement. To understand why it got the majority vote one must travel to Gaza and see the sheer poverty and lack of hope to understand why it is supported by the masses. They have no alternative. The only other alternative were corupt PLO officials spiriting out millions in aid to Swiss bank acounts and running the Gaza and West Bank like a two-bit street gang.

Hamas was the only alternative, It provided schools and a basic social system. In its schools it has been teaching its children from the age of birth that to be a good Muslim means warring and trying to rid the Middle East of Jews and Christians and to view the world as basically being two realities-the Muslim reality which is the one of truth, and the non-Muslim reality which is a world frequented by devils.

To think you can sit and negotiate with Hamas is utterly naive. They see Jews, Christians, women, Americans, Israelis, British, as sub-humans, people not worthy of respect let alone discussion or dialogue.

They truly believe these non Muslims are flawed, inferior and defective. So there is no discussion. And if you dare talk in moderation in the Gaza and the West Bank you expose yourself to severe physical intimidation and even death.

The Gaza is an open cess pool. It has no economy and it is teaming with millions jammed together in delapidated stone apartments. There is no sewage system, electricity and fresh water, things we take for granted. In the Gaza, it constantly smells of urine, feces and filth.

To compoiund matters there is no work or hope so people sit all day. They smoke dope, and Turkish tobacco and drink strong coffee and do nothing.

At night there are sonic booms from Israeli fighter craft. The Israelis do this deliberately as part of a psychological strategy. No its not to terrorize Palestinians as much as you think that is what its for. What it is really for is to cause disorientation and prevent young children being used as terrorists from venturing to far in the night. Its designed to try scare the very children Hamas needs in the night.

Now why the fuss over one Israeli soldier? Its not just one soldier. That soldier symbolizes Israel's will to exist. If this soldier is given up without a fuss, Hamas is given a profound message that Israel is weak or will not fight back. So why the brinksmanship?

Well how can you understand living in Canada that the size of Israel squished next to Gaza on one side or the West Bank on the other is the distance from downtown Toronto to the outskirts of Mississauga.

Imagine if someone next door in Etobicoke was shooting missiles at Hurontario Street and indiscriminately blowing up square one.

In Canada when the FLQ was an alleged threat, the entire nation was placed under a state of siege and everyone's civil rights and presumption of innocence were suspended. Thousands were arrested under the War Measures Act and kept in indefinite detention for no reason other then they were suspected of being separatist sympathizers. Since the kidnapping of James Cross and then the kidnapping and murder of Pierre Laporte, there have been no other so called terrorist acts in Canada but we do know from those two actions how Canada reacted.

So when you try understand why Israel reacts the way you do try think of a tiny nation sitting within eye-blinking distance of an enemy sworn to wipe it off the map. How do you expect them to survive with an enemy that considers them vermin?

To understand the seige mentality of Israelis is to sit in a cafe and have someone blow up in your face and have their blood and body parts sprayed on you. That is the reality of being an Israeli citizen. Every Israeli citizen has witnessed or knows someone to have suffered from such an incident.

So on one side you have Israelis feeling they are in a constant state of seige and therefore in survival mode, and on the other, are millions of unemployed, desperate Palestinians. It makes for a war of attrition where civilians on both sides live in hell and are doomed to repeated violence and cycles of hatred that flow from terrorism.

The solution? The two sides need to be clearly and distinctly seperated. Before any dialogue can occur, there needs to be a time to seperate and heal. A minimum of five years without violence.

To achieve this, the Gaza and West Bank have to be completely demilitarized. Young Palestinians and Israelis then need to be sent to neutral countries where they can live together and learn together so that when they return, they have started the painful process of tolerance.

What the Middle East does not need is a naive United Church of Toronto or Cupe lecturing Israel but staying silent about Hamas. What the Middle East does not need, are liberal Christians full of guilt trying to depict this as a one sided problem.

What the Middle East needs are neutral mediators who have lived through conflict such as the Irish,

or people from countries with no vested interests who can help both sides talk and try achieve a middle ground. Neither side is to blame. Both sides are victims.

Hamas is a vile, violent terrorist force but there are many Palestinians who are fed up with violence and want peace and an alternative. Likewise Israel has a vast peace network.

Ask yourselves what would happen tomorrow, if Palestinians adapted the passive resistance methods of Ghandi and Martin Luther King. I can tell you what would happen. They would capture the imagination of the Israeli Peace Network and in the absence of violence, dialogue would come about. Contrary to what people may think, Arabs and Israelis of the Middle East can and do co-exist and work together.

Its just these days there are a lot of players who have vested interests in preventing Arabs and Jews from forming an alliance. Think what would happen in the Middle East of Jews and Muslims achieved peace. Suddenly over night the Europeans, Americans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, all of these countries and their weapons and behind the scenes wheeling and dealing of weapons for oil, becomes obsolete.