Caledonia problem didnt arise overnight

[Riverwind]

.today the federal government raises far more revenue from its share of resource royalties than it does from income taxes.

I have already showed you that statement is completely false - please stop repeating it. Resource royalties paid to all levels of government in Canada are somewhere between 20-30 billion per year. Income and sales taxes bring in close to $300 billion.

.This statement is one of the primary reasons for the trillion dollar debt owed to Native nations in Canada. This statement is one of the primary reasons for the trillion dollar debt owed to Native nations in Canada.

The diamonds and the tar sands would be still in the ground if those companies had not invested a lot of money developing the technology to extract the resources. Furthermore, native groups outside of northern alberta and NWT have no claim on these resources.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

Well Riv - the government and the majority of Canada doesnt agree with you.

Most feel that the agreements should have been honoured from the start, and the sentiment is that the sooner a deal can be reached the less-expensive it will be.

Most non-native people who support native land claims now are people who think they can be honoured without having to make personal sacrifices. Any support will evaporate the second people realize that it will cost them personally.

Again Im thinking the majority will firstly recognise the validity of the signed agreements ( like any honourable person or administration would do ) Secondly i dont beleive the majority of people are not money hungry nor are they willing to let the Land Claim deficit go on like it has for so damn long. The longer this goes on the deepr the hole - if you will. Im thinking that transfering the lands may be the most direct route to a good settlement - Grant the lands - develop taxation system that goes to the Six Nations ( in a new municipality - if that makes it easier for you ) then they steer their own development.

Then people like you can wait to see if things go well and if not you can pick the bones like a vulture.

[NativeCharm]

.today the federal government raises far more revenue from its share of resource royalties than it does from income taxes.

I have already showed you that statement is completely false - please stop repeating it. Resource royalties paid to all levels of government in Canada are somewhere between 20-30 billion per year. Income and sales taxes bring in close to $300 billion.

Actually I want some proof on that please if you don't mind. Also, Income and SALES tax, how much is from income and how much is from sales?

[Riverwind]

Actually I want some proof on that please if you don't mind. Also, Income and SALES tax, how much is from income and how much is from sales?

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/govt02a.htm

Federal Gov't 2006 - In Billions

Income taxes 144,562

Consumption taxes 48,490

[NativeCharm]

The diamonds and the tar sands would be still in the ground if those companies had not invested a lot of money developing the technology to extract the resources. Furthermore, native groups outside of northern alberta and NWT have no claim on these resources.

Ok now you're making me laugh again! It's becoming more and more obvious whose payroll your on

You really wanna discuss resource and development with me Riv? Cause I don't think there's enough space in this forum for me to unleash!

[NativeCharm]

Thanks for the data. Either way something has to be done, because the issues will not simply GO away. Changing the laws to suit the gov't agenda will not create anything other than National mayhem, and ( I've always agreed to this) tax payers should NOT be carrying the financial burden of this REAL debt. However, if Canada owed that type of money to another country, wouldn't we as citizens also be responsible for our contribution?

[Riverwind]

However, if Canada owed that type of money to another country, wouldn't we as citizens also be responsible for our contribution?

Depends on how much. Mexico and Argentina have refused to pay foreign debts. This annoyed a lot of people but they more or less got away with it. In any case, within a single country gov't has the power to restribute wealth through taxation so any cash settlement could be immediately taxed back by the gov't. That is just another reason why native treaties are a political and not a legal issue.

[NativeCharm]

However, if Canada owed that type of money to another country, wouldn't we as citizens also be responsible for our contribution?

Depends on how much. Mexico and Argentina have refused to pay foreign debts. This annoyed a lot of people but they more or less got away with it. In any case, within a single country gov't has the power to restribute wealth through taxation so any cash settlement could be immediately taxed by by the gov't. That is just another reason why native treaties are a political and not a legal issue.

I have to disagree on that statement because this country's wealth has been based on land and it's resources. If we didn't have the resources and development there would BE NO INCOME TAX contributions. Again, why would the country not honour a signed agreement? Don't even bother asking, cause we have a TRILLION valid answers to that one.

[Riverwind]

I have to disagree on that statement because this country's wealth has been based on land and it's resources. If we didn't have the resources and development there would BE NO INCOME TAX contributions.

Japan has few resources yet it has the second largest economy in the world. Canada has a lot of resources and these do generate a lot of economic activity, however, 60-70% of the Canadian economy does not depend on resources. You can argue that if the resources disappeared tomorrow that we would all be a lot poorer. However, if the resources have never existed you would have seen the Canadian economy develop differently.

[betsy]

Native Charm,

Your insults towards those who oppose your views had been practically non-stop the moment you joined this thread. And your spew had intensified dramatically after my post explaining how your antcs are being interpreted by moi, and possibly by the rest of Canada. Therefore, I can only assume that my statements had really stepped on a nerve....and the truth (which you actually acknowledge), BUT don't want to be reminded of.

As I've said before....you can spin it all, left and right and up and down, every which way you want to, and you can bring up all the past and dig up all the ghosts and use up all the usual ace cards (particularly that one called "racism" since you know the mentality today usually caves in the moment you wave that no-fail winner)....but still, your protest only boils down to one simple thing: THIS PROTEST IS VICTIMIZING INNOCENT PEOPLE.

The Native people are far from being the "underdog" in this issue. It's the people of Caledonia. And ordinary folks identify, empathize and symphatize with them! These ordinary folks may not be doing anything right now other than reading and shaking their heads.....but they can be saying a lot when it comes to casting their ballots! Mentality can change just like governments can change....or vice versa.

For someone allegedly weaseling out...I actually stood by my views on how I regard this terrorist tactic in more than one post. How you could've come up with that conclusion that I'm weaseling out from that is beyond me!

Btw, I've never claimed to be intelligent or anything on this board. You could say I represent the "masses" mentality....not the intellectuals such as yourself (or those who have the silly illusions that they are).

And for me to harbor such views must be a telling sign how the regular folks all over Canada view your misplaced little protest. Nothing more than a form of extortion and terrorism...that's costing not only Caledonia some money and grief....but also wasting our tax-payers' money.

Speaking of this board, it is quite a decent board, if you hadn't noticed since blind anger must've clouded even your perception (which is understandable since we're talking of an issue that is highly ignitable), besides just like me, you are quite passionate too.

However, hardly anyone here uses gutter language and downright racist remarks in defending or shutting down any dissenting views. One of the utmost goals I think is keeping this board from going trashy.

It will be to your best interest if you check out the forum rules.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

Heres a question : How much money does Canada donate to other countries in a year?

Maybe this money should go to solving our own internal problems first?

Lets pay for our own house before we shell out to patch someone elses roof.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

Im sorry some of you cant see the bigger picture emerging from current events.

The term " terrorist " is being stretched to the utmost in attempt to incite negative feelings and associations with the word onto the Native protests. Personally, I associate the word to people who threaten death or who actually kill for their cause. I dont think anyone can seriously say that the Native protests fit that criteria.

Temagami, Ahni, NativeCharm and myself have all reiterated at one time or another that the matter is not going to go away. These protests are essential to keep the governments attention fixed on the issue, without this attention being drawn the government will find it quite easy to ignore - as they have done for countless years previous. Obviously this cannot be allowed to happen.

The Native people have exhibited extreme patience and tolerance with the abuses of authority they have endured over the years. These injustices were hidden from the public for so long. Only now - since the people have begun to pull together, to stand up, organise and get the word out are the people of Canada realising what has transpired.

Good things are happening - the government is listening - there is forward movement in negotiations.

The sooner a solution is reached, the sooner everyone can begin to bury their fear of the unknown and move forward - hopefully together.

[PocketRocket]

Okay, this is my first contribution to this topic, not only this thread, but the topic as it has been discussed in various threads here.

As a suggestion/idea/whatever; rather than blockading the highway and making miserable the lives of many people in Caledonia who are not involved at all, why not simply blockade the development site.

Prevent the construction contractors from doing their jobs. Sit in front of the tractors and bulldozers.

That way, the only ones being hurt are the developers, and the contractors working for them.

This would have a couple benefits:

1) The contractors themselves would lose money, and would not be willing to deal with those same developers in the future.

2) The developers would lose both money and face.

3) The average working Joe on the site would get to sit around the site, getting paid for doing nothing, so they would likely become covert allies.

4) It would probably put many Caledonians onside with the Natives, not to mention raising the sympathy, rather than the ire, of the population at large.

This may be overly simplistic, but any thoughts on this???

[betsy]

Heres a question : How much money does Canada donate to other countries in a year?

Maybe this money should go to solving our own internal problems first?

Lets pay for our own house before we shell out to patch someone elses roof.

I'm all for finding resolution and solving the Native issues. Without hurting or disrupting the lives of innocent people.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

When the protest began at Douglas Creek, it was contained to the site only.

The barricades went up in response to the Police raid, as an effort to protect themsleves.

Some residents of Caledonia were opposed even at the onset of the protest, pre-barricade.

Making peoples lives miserable was never the purpose of the protest at any point - raising awareness about the Land Claim issue was, and still is paramount.

The Douglass Creek lands have been reclaimed, being officially recognised as Six Nations Territory. Despite that fact, the Premier is asking for the protesters to leave what is officially recognised by the government as their own territory. The site is only a small part of the land claim, but may become a focal point for all land claims coast to coast. The protest continues and i expect simular protests to take place wherever land claims are being ignored by the government.

[Riverwind]

The Douglass Creek lands have been reclaimed, being officially recognised as Six Nations Territory.

The lands are not being handed over - they may never be handed over. The province just bought out the developer because it was easier than risking a violent confrontation to end the blockade.

[betsy]

When the protest began at Douglas Creek, it was contained to the site only.

The barricades went up in response to the Police raid, as an effort to protect themsleves.

Some residents of Caledonia were opposed even at the onset of the protest, pre-barricade.

Making peoples lives miserable was never the purpose of the protest at any point - raising awareness about the Land Claim issue was, and still is paramount.

Why did the police raid the protest?

Some of the residents may've been opposed at the onset...did it manifest its opposition in any way?

And why were they opposed? What were they concerned about?

I could see and understand that from the onset, making Caledonia residents miserable was not the purpose. A day or two would've been bearable for them I guess...but it's been dragging on for months now.

And from what I've read, some native radicals had called in those "reinforcements" that eventually "hijacked" your protest and made it ugly.

Making lives miserable may not have been the purpose then, but Native Charms' comments negate what you just claimed, and indicate that now, it seems it is.

So in other words, those Caledonians who had opposed the idea of this protest from the onset can now say that they've been proven right to be opposed to it in the first place.

[NativeCharm]

Betsy, Just because you can type and function in a forum hardly entitles you to being a “mental” representative of the masses. If that is the case, then I am starting to feel pity for the “victims” simply for the fact that they send someone such as yourself, who is unaware and unwilling to take an intellectual viewpoint on the entire situation. Betsy, I won’t debate with you anymore because your mind is so narrow you can’t put a pin through it. Do your “victims” a favor for their future and educate yourself, if you’ve got an issue with my remarks perhaps you will consider THINKING BEFORE you stereoTYPE! But please, don’t hurt yourself.

For those of you that don’t know, here it is. Our “misplaced little protest” has remained a non terrorist act because the women (the clan mothers) have been heading the frontline and most of the talks. Ideally, they have been the prime decision makers in respect to the operation and negotiation. And when support ( or goons,terrorist, hijackers etc, as you like to call them) were called in, they were specifically instructed to remain calm, composed and act according to the Clan Mothers.

In the beginning of the protest, the Six Nations people specifically pleaded to the rest of the Native people, NOT to come to Caledonia for it would only intensify the situation. Eventually support was called in many forms and it has (over and over again) been made crystal clear by the clan mothers that violence was not the answer and our people were to respect that. Which we were all doing. However, DEFENDING ourselves is …what term does lil Betsy use? Oh yeah…HUMAN NATURE!

[NativeCharm]

THIS PROTEST IS VICTIMIZING INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Yadeee Yadee Yadee! This entire country was built on victimizing people and our dow jones is a product of our ongoing victimization.

If you want sympathy its between shit and syphillis in the dictionary, both of which I'm sure you are familiar!

[betsy]

[if you want sympathy its between shit and syphillis in the dictionary, both of which I'm sure you are familiar!

Eh?

Are you okay? Nothing serious I hope.

[betsy]

In the beginning of the protest, the Six Nations people specifically pleaded to the rest of the Native people, NOT to come to Caledonia for it would only intensify the situation. Eventually support was called in many forms and it has (over and over again) been made crystal clear by the clan mothers that violence was not the answer and our people were to respect that. Which we were all doing. However, DEFENDING ourselves is …what term does lil Betsy use? Oh yeah…HUMAN NATURE!

In the beginning....yep.

It's that next sentence...that part that sez..."Support was called in..." that raises some serious curiousity.

Because it's right then when things really got ugly.

So support was called in....FOR WHAT PURPOSE???

That article in the Western Standard is quite true then. As I thought it is.

[betsy]

For those of you that don’t know, here it is. Our “misplaced little protest” has remained a non terrorist act because the women (the clan mothers) have been heading the frontline and most of the talks. Ideally, they have been the prime decision makers in respect to the operation and negotiation. And when support ( or goons,terrorist, hijackers etc, as you like to call them) were called in, they were specifically instructed to remain calm, composed and act according to the Clan Mothers.

You gotta be kidding me! You mean they just went right on and ignored your mothers?

You should've booted them outa there fast..."banocking their white, red, blue, brown and whatever color behinds". What they did to your leaders was a downright insult! One thing to dis-honor men leaders....but it's really, really, absolutely, and definitely unforgiveable to insult WOMEN leaders! What do they think? Women are not to be taken seriously as leaders? You must've been livid with anger after all that downright insult, offense and dishonor.

[Kindred]

I havent read this whole thread, its too long, but I really want to add something.

In Adams Lake, BC native leased land for non-native people to build homes on, then they burned the bridge that provided access, shot at the residents, broke into their homes and destroyed them -

These people had and do have mortgages they are still paying on, homes they have no access to, those that are left and no compensation for their losses.

In BC natives leased land to non-natives to build homes on and then overnight raised the leases, despite the contracts they had signed, by as much as 5 times the original amount.

When I drive through the reserve in the interior I see new houses, satelite dishes outside almost all of them and $40,000.00 pick up trucks, SUVs and RVs. I see most natives wearing all the brand name clothing. I see them pushing their shopping carts heaped up with steaks and junk food, cases of soft drinks ..

I heard or read somewhere that natives have claimed 220% of Canada because some of the land claims are overlapping.

Natives not connected to the Kamloops band showed up to blockade access to Sun Peaks and development there, claiming it as "their land". The Kamloops band went on both TV and radio saying they did not support this blockade/protest and told the protestors to in effect "get off their land".

One band in BC received funding, naturally, to set up their own school and appointed as "Education Co-Ordinator" a young woman, single mother, four kids, with about a grade 7 education. Her qualifications? She's native. There's a good use of tax payers money. The school has never been built btw. The money was received in 2004.

The natives receive free housing, no interest mortgages if they live off the reserve, free post secondary education, free medical and dental and no questions asked welfare assistance. They dont pay taxes.

In BC very few natives take advantage of the free post secondary education. Yet seats in every college and university are reserved for native students and sit empty while non-native students cant get into the classes because "they are full".

A person could write a book about "The Native Plight" in Canada, or "Canada's Apartheid System". The priviliged class of course is native, and we're their slaves working to support them.

Natives from BC made fools of themselves complaining to Nelson Mandella about how oppressed they were and how bad they had it in Canada. Mandella was NOT impressed given the plight of blacks in Africa.

The natives receive BILLIONS every year while disabled non-native and poor non-native Canadians are kicked off welfare and are lviing in extreme poverty.

An able bodied native male receive MORE in Social Assistance and benefits than a disabled non-native single mother in Canada does.

The Saskatchewan Federated Indian College is crammed to the roof with natives wanting and obtaining post secondary education. Every one of the graduating class of 2002 had a job before they graduated .. so DONT tell me natives DONT have equal opportunity and DONT fit into Canadian society, and cant get jobs.

Bottom line is the majority have an over inflated sense of entitlement, and have no desire to work or contribute to a society and a country who's back they are, for the majority, riding on ...

Other people with a history of oppression have managed to get over it. The Irish, East Indians, Asians .. and yes, even some natives have managed to be successful and productive.

So "get over it", what happened a hundred years ago or more has NOT impacted your own lives, other than the never ending pity party you indulge in.

The natives I grew up with had the same education, the same life style, the same friends, the same opportunities as any non-native did. Many many non-native have grown up in families where alcohol and drugs and poverty were an issue.

A native woman who was nominated Prom Queen actually wrote an article on how she was abused in a Native Residental School, yet she attended the SAME high school I did.

A native male I know told me he was approached by a lawyer and told he could get $20,000.00 if he would go to court and claim he was put into and abused in a Residentail School. This man has never seen a residental school. For one thing he is much too young.

What about the natives claiming exploration for oil and extraction of oil was part of their "native culture and heritage"?

The good news is the claims are becoming so outrageous and so bogus everyone is getting fed up with them, even the oh so Politically Correct bleeding hearts .....

Has anyone bothered to find out what has happened in the Stein Valley since the natives won their claim to it? Logging is what has happened. The natives took over and reopened the mill there ..

The interior of BC was devestated by fire in 2003, a lot on "indian land" which is still completely bare, no reforestation being done, no habitat for wildlife being restored. Its a waste land now.

You will NEVER claim Canada as your own, and all you are doing is fostering racism - people are sick and tired of your whining -

People across Canada cheered when the white boys started beating on the native protestors. If its a race war you want then keep on doing what you're doing .......

Enough is enough, get the hell off my land. Stop shooting at and terrorizing my people.

Call me "mad as hell" and fed up with being a "white slave" for a bunch of free loading whiners and liars.

[Charles Anthony]

Thank you for your critical analysis! Canada needs more social science researchers of your style!

Thank you! We are enlightened! Please continue!

[NativeCharm]

Enough is enough, get the hell off my land. Stop shooting at and terrorizing my people.

Our thoughts exactly!