User Posted November 8, 2025 Report Posted November 8, 2025 2 minutes ago, blackbird said: No, I just can't agree. I understand all the arguments of people you quoted, but just don't agree with them. I'm sure there are at least as many who would disagree with those you quoted. I have seen some pretty horrendous tattoos on people on buses and in public. I don't think it is something Christians should be taught as acceptable. It just isn't. I quoted how a source said missionaries put a stop to heathen people decorating themselves. I doubt the people you quote would defend the way heathen in jungles decorated themselves and their head and faces. Yet tattooing falls into the same category of the heathen aboriginals in jungles and the way they painted and deformed their faces. Maybe not as extreme, but still defacing their bodies. Claim 1 – “There are at least as many scholars who would disagree with those you quoted.” It is true that disagreement exists, but numerical balance does not determine biblical accuracy. Throughout church history, faithful exegesis has often gone against majority opinion. Augustine and Athanasius stood virtually alone defending key doctrines like grace and the deity of Christ against wider consensus. In modern biblical studies, what matters is not quantity of scholars but quality of argument grounded in context and covenant theology. The scholars previously cited—Grudem, Schreiner, Piper, Wenham, Sklar—all represent conservative evangelical orthodoxy, not fringe liberalism. Their conclusion that Leviticus 19:28 is culturally bound rests on textual and covenantal reasoning, not popularity or fashion. Claim 2 – “I’ve seen horrendous tattoos; therefore, Christians shouldn’t be taught that tattoos are acceptable.” The moral objection here concerns abuse of a liberty, not the liberty itself. Scripture consistently distinguishes between lawful freedom and sinful excess. 1 Corinthians 10:23: “All things are lawful, but not all things are helpful.” John Piper comments: “That some people misuse a freedom does not make the freedom itself sinful. Drunkenness does not make wine evil, and vanity does not make clothing evil.” (Ask Pastor John, Episode 891) Similarly, vulgar or idolatrous tattoos are wrong because of content and intent, not because ink exists. The presence of misuse cannot redefine the biblical category of sin. Claim 3 – “Missionaries put a stop to heathen people decorating themselves; tattooing falls into the same category as pagan tribal practices.” This conflates cultural evangelism with biblical moral law. Missionaries often discouraged local customs when those practices were directly tied to idolatry or spirit worship—not because all forms of adornment are inherently sinful. Missiologist Andrew Walls notes: “Missionaries frequently confused cultural transformation with moral conversion, assuming Western aesthetics were inherently Christian.” (The Missionary Movement in Christian History, 1996) Jay Sklar makes the same point exegetically: “The command in Leviticus 19:28 refers to pagan mourning rituals, not neutral decorative marking.” (Leviticus, TOTC, 2013) Thus, early missionaries opposing tribal tattooing acted to separate converts from overt pagan worship, not to prohibit all skin markings for all time. Modern Christians applying tattoos as personal symbols of faith or art are not reproducing those pagan rites. Claim 4 – “Tattoos are defacing the body.” The Bible defines defilement not by external alteration but by internal corruption (Mark 7:15). Scripture never equates physical modification—piercing, circumcision, or adornment—with moral defilement when done in faith. Sam Storms clarifies: “Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit; what matters is whether what we do with them honors Christ, not whether the skin has color or ink.” (Enjoying God Blog, 2016) Likewise, R.C. Sproul wrote that reverence “is an attitude of the heart, not the fabric—or the flesh—of the body” (Essential Truths of the Christian Faith, ch. 88). Therefore, describing all tattoos as defacement imposes a cultural aesthetic, not a biblical definition of holiness. Claim 5 – “Tattoos resemble pagan body modifications.” Historical resemblance does not equal moral equivalence. Many once-pagan cultural forms—wedding rings, musical instruments, even church architecture—were redeemed for Christian use. D.A. Carson observes: “To reject a practice solely because pagans once used it is a form of guilt by association, not theological discernment.” (Christ and Culture Revisited, 2008) The biblical test is use and meaning, not origin. When a Christian receives a tattoo to express faith, memorialize redemption, or simply as art under God’s lordship, the act no longer carries pagan significance. Conclusion The objections raised are rooted more in cultural association and aesthetic discomfort than in biblical command. Conservative, inerrantist scholars agree that: Leviticus 19:28 prohibited idolatrous mourning rites, not decorative ink. The New Testament nowhere forbids tattooing. Moral evaluation depends on motive, modesty, and content—not on the presence of ink. Equating all tattoos with pagan defilement extends Scripture beyond its intent and confuses contextual missionary practice with timeless moral law. Under biblical standards of exegesis and orthodoxy, tattooing remains a matter of conscience, not defacement, apostasy, or heresy. Quote
blackbird Posted November 11, 2025 Author Report Posted November 11, 2025 (edited) On 11/7/2025 at 8:09 PM, User said: Equating all tattoos with pagan defilement extends Scripture beyond its intent and confuses Nonsense. Your thinking a born again Christian can mix fleshly worldliness with the new creature in Christ is complete heresy. You don't understand what the Bible tells us about the nature a Christian should have. "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:" Col. 3:10 KJV "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" 1 Cor. 3:16 KJV Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-New-Nature/type/kjv Perhaps you don't understand because you don't even accept a real Bible, the King James Version, as God's providentially preserved Scripture. Therefore you proved you don't even believe there is one word for word inspired and preserved Bible in English. Using a new corrupt version, which differ in thousands of places, allows you to make up your own interpretation because you don't think there are any absolutes on how a Christian should look. Because you don't believe God preserved one inerrant Bible, you don't believe the words in the corrupt version you use are God's exact words. That allows you the freedom to interpret it in any way you wish. Mixing liberalism with Biblical Christianity is a form of Nicolaitanism, which Jesus said He hates. "15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." Rev. 2:15, 16 KJV Edited November 11, 2025 by blackbird Quote
User Posted November 12, 2025 Report Posted November 12, 2025 10 hours ago, blackbird said: Nonsense. Preliminary Note – Ignoring the Substance of the Discussion The response fails to engage with the extensive biblical and theological material already provided, including citations from conservative evangelical scholars, exegetical analysis of Leviticus 19:28, and the moral–ceremonial law distinction rooted in covenant theology. Instead of addressing those points, the reply substitutes accusations of heresy and translation disputes for textual argument. Such a shift from exegesis to accusation does not advance the discussion; it replaces evidence-based reasoning with presuppositional assertion. Claim 1 – “Mixing fleshly worldliness with the new creature in Christ is heresy.” The accusation misrepresents the original argument. No cited theologian has argued that Christians should “mix worldliness” with faith. The consistent position has been that tattooing, in itself, is morally neutral, and its spiritual value depends entirely on motive, modesty, and message. Wayne Grudem clarifies: “Christians are called to glorify God in every aspect of life. In matters where Scripture gives no direct command, the believer exercises liberty under the lordship of Christ.” (Christian Ethics, 2018) Similarly, John Piper warns that liberty must never become license but also must not be bound by man-made restrictions: “If you can do it from faith, for the glory of God, it is permissible; if you cannot, it is sin.” (Desiring God, “Should Christians Get Tattoos?”) The cited verses (Col 3:10; 1 Cor 3:16) speak to sanctification and purity, not to external appearance. They command transformation of character, not uniformity of style. Nothing in these passages forbids decorative markings any more than they forbid jewelry, hairstyles, or cultural dress—all of which are morally assessed by intent, not material form. Claim 2 – “Only the King James Version is the real Bible; modern versions are corrupt.” This claim shifts the discussion from theology to textual criticism. The assertion that the KJV alone is divinely preserved lacks support from conservative scholarship in the fields of biblical studies and translation history. D. A. Carson (The King James Version Debate: A Plea for Realism, 1979) demonstrates that modern translations rely on older and more reliable Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, not “corrupt” ones. Norman Geisler and William Nix affirm: “No English translation is itself inspired; inspiration applies to the original autographs. Faithful translations, old or new, communicate God’s inerrant Word.” (A General Introduction to the Bible, 1986) KJV-onlyism is therefore not a historic doctrine of the church but a recent tradition (20th century) without exegetical warrant. Conservative, inerrantist scholars who use the ESV, NASB, or NIV still affirm absolute biblical authority while rejecting the claim that one English rendering alone is inspired. Claim 3 – “Liberalism and Nicolaitanism are being mixed with biblical Christianity.” The invocation of Nicolaitanism (Rev 2:15-16) is contextually misplaced. The Nicolaitans were a sect promoting sexual immorality and idolatry, not Christians debating cultural applications of holiness. No theological or moral parallel exists between that heresy and conscientious disagreement over tattoos. Craig Keener (commentary on Revelation) notes: “The Nicolaitan teaching involved participation in pagan idolatry and immorality, not questions of cultural custom.” (NIV Application Commentary: Revelation, 2000) To equate every modern difference of interpretation with Nicolaitanism dilutes the biblical meaning of that term and unjustly brands faithful believers as enemies of Christ. Claim 4 – “Christians who allow tattoos deny absolutes and make up their own interpretation.” On the contrary, the position defended rests on absolute biblical authority interpreted by context—the same hermeneutical method used by Reformed and Baptist theologians for dietary laws, Sabbath observance, and clothing mixtures in Leviticus. Applying consistent covenantal reasoning to tattoos is an act of exegetical fidelity, not moral relativism. Thomas Schreiner explains: “The moral norms of the Old Testament continue where they are repeated or grounded in creation; ceremonial and civil commands tied to Israel’s covenant identity are fulfilled in Christ.” (40 Questions About Christians and the Law, 2010) Since the tattoo prohibition belongs to a ceremonial context tied to pagan mourning, it no longer carries binding authority under the New Covenant. That conclusion is based on Scripture’s own structure, not on cultural preference. Summary Issue Biblical / Scholarly Response Accusation of worldliness Scripture judges motive, not externals (Grudem, Piper). KJV-only claim Textual preservation applies to all faithful translations (Carson, Geisler). Charge of Nicolaitanism Context = idolatry/immorality, not cultural disagreement (Keener). Alleged liberalism Position arises from covenantal exegesis within conservative orthodoxy (Schreiner, Wenham). Conclusion By dismissing the comprehensive evidence and shifting to translation and accusation, the response avoids the central issue—what Scripture actually teaches. The consistent testimony of conservative biblical scholarship is that applying Leviticus 19:28 as a binding moral law on Christians extends Scripture beyond its intent. Treating tattoos as a matter of conscience under Christ’s lordship is not “mixing worldliness with faith,” but a disciplined application of biblical authority interpreted in context. Quote
August1991 Posted November 12, 2025 Report Posted November 12, 2025 On 10/10/2025 at 10:44 PM, blackbird said: Tattooing has become a very common practice in the western world today. .... And wearing a Rolex watch is also a signal. Young white male kids paint graffiti. Why? Quote
blackbird Posted November 12, 2025 Author Report Posted November 12, 2025 (edited) 10 hours ago, User said: Wayne Grudem clarifies: “Christians are called to glorify God in every aspect of life. In matters where Scripture gives no direct command, the believer exercises liberty under the lordship of Christ.” (Christian Ethics, 2018) Similarly, John Piper warns that liberty must never become license but also must not be bound by man-made restrictions: “If you can do it from faith, for the glory of God, it is permissible; if you cannot, it is sin.” (Desiring God, “Should Christians Get Tattoos?”) According to what you quoted, Wayne Grudem and John Piper completely ignore Leviticus 19:28, which forbids marking the body. Edited November 12, 2025 by blackbird Quote
blackbird Posted November 12, 2025 Author Report Posted November 12, 2025 8 hours ago, August1991 said: And wearing a Rolex watch is also a signal. Young white male kids paint graffiti. Why? What does that have to do with tattooing? Quote
User Posted November 12, 2025 Report Posted November 12, 2025 1 hour ago, blackbird said: 12 hours ago, User said: According to what you quoted, Wayne Grudem and John Piper completely ignore Leviticus 19:28, which forbids marking the body. Claim – “Wayne Grudem and John Piper ignore Leviticus 19:28.” This claim is factually inaccurate. Both theologians explicitly address the verse and locate it within its original Mosaic and pagan context. 1. Wayne Grudem – Christian Ethics (2018) “Leviticus 19:28 forbade Israel from participating in pagan mourning practices that involved cutting or marking the body. Because Christians are no longer under the Mosaic covenant, this command does not apply as a binding moral law.” (p. 443) Grudem therefore does not “ignore” the verse; he interprets it through covenant theology, distinguishing between laws fulfilled in Christ and those that express permanent moral norms. 2. John Piper – Desiring God (‘Should Christians Get Tattoos?’) “The issue is not that Leviticus 19:28 is unknown but that Christ has fulfilled the ceremonial law. The question now is whether a Christian can, in faith, get a tattoo to the glory of God.” Piper cites Leviticus 19:28 as the starting point of discussion, then explains why it does not constitute an enduring moral prohibition for the church. Both men, therefore, acknowledge the verse and exegete it; they simply conclude—based on its historical setting—that it forbade pagan mourning rites, not every instance of skin marking in all eras. Scholarly Corroboration This reading is shared by other conservative Old Testament scholars: Jay Sklar (Covenant Seminary): “The tattoos mentioned in Leviticus 19:28 were connected to rites for the dead. The text concerns idolatrous mourning, not modern decorative markings.” (Leviticus, TOTC, 2013) Gordon Wenham (NICOT Leviticus😞 “Both cutting the flesh and tattooing the skin were acts of mourning for the dead in pagan religions and are condemned because they express heathen belief.” Such consensus demonstrates that these theologians interpret Leviticus 19:28 in context, not that they ignore it. Exegetical Summary Aspect Conservative Interpretation Historical context Pagan mourning & idolatrous ritual, not decorative art Law category Ceremonial / cultural within Mosaic covenant New Testament status Fulfilled in Christ; not repeated as moral command Modern principle Avoid idolatry and vanity; act from faith and modesty Conclusion Accusing Grudem or Piper of “ignoring” Leviticus 19:28 misrepresents their work. They engage the passage directly, interpret it within its covenantal and cultural framework, and apply the enduring moral principle—avoid paganism and honor God with the body—without extending the verse beyond its original intent. Their conclusion reflects contextual fidelity, not neglect of Scripture. Quote
blackbird Posted November 12, 2025 Author Report Posted November 12, 2025 1 hour ago, User said: 1. Wayne Grudem – Christian Ethics (2018) “Leviticus 19:28 forbade Israel from participating in pagan mourning practices that involved cutting or marking the body. Because Christians are no longer under the Mosaic covenant, this command does not apply as a binding moral law.” (p. 443) Grudem therefore does not “ignore” the verse; he interprets it through covenant theology, distinguishing between laws fulfilled in Christ and those that express permanent moral norms. That is an incorrect interpretation. I think millions would agree with me. We are not under the laws as a way of salvation, but they still apply. Who would say nine of the ten commandments don't apply today. Don't you think the commandments against murder, stealing, and adultery still apply? What about the commands requiring loving God and loving thy neighbour? What about the command against bestiality in Leviticus? Doesn't that still apply? When they say fulfilled in Christ, you better define exactly what that means, because it doesn't mean they no longer serve as a guide. You are not making sense. 2 hours ago, User said: Gordon Wenham (NICOT Leviticus😞 “Both cutting the flesh and tattooing the skin were acts of mourning for the dead in pagan religions and are condemned because they express heathen belief.” Nothing around the verse Lev 19:28 says anything to indicate that marking oneself was related to mourning for the dead or pagan religions or that it was because of heathen beliefs. That is a false interpretation. It just condemns marking oneself, PERIOD. Quote
User Posted November 12, 2025 Report Posted November 12, 2025 1 hour ago, blackbird said: That is an incorrect interpretation. I think millions would agree with me. Preliminary Note – Shift from Exegesis to Assertion The response once again dismisses conservative scholarship by assertion rather than by counter-exegesis. The question is not how many people might “agree,” but what the biblical text, in its linguistic and cultural context, actually means. Sound interpretation requires historical-grammatical study, not polling majority opinion. As John Stott warned: “Truth is not decided by counting heads but by listening carefully to Scripture in context.” (Between Two Worlds, 1982) Claim 1 – “We are not under the laws as a way of salvation, but they still apply.” This statement confuses two categories of Old-Testament law: moral law (reflecting God’s unchanging character) and ceremonial / civil law (governing Israel’s national and cultic life). The distinction is not a liberal invention; it is classical Reformed orthodoxy. John Calvin: “The moral law is the true and eternal rule of righteousness… the ceremonial law was the tutelage of the Jews.” (Institutes 2.7.14) Wayne Grudem: “Moral laws continue; civil and ceremonial laws ceased when Christ fulfilled them.” (Christian Ethics, p. 90) Thus, Christians still obey the moral core (e.g., murder, theft, adultery) because the New Testament reaffirms them (Rom 13:9). But ceremonial regulations—dietary limits, fabric mixtures, sacrificial systems, and ritual markings—are explicitly set aside in passages such as Mark 7:18-19, Acts 10:15, and Gal 3:23-25. Leviticus 19:28 belongs to that ceremonial sphere; it defined Israel’s separation from pagan mourning customs, not an eternal moral law. Claim 2 – “The Ten Commandments still apply, so Levitical commands must also apply.” Nine of the Ten Commandments are reaffirmed in the New Testament; that is why they remain normative. The Sabbath command is reinterpreted in Christ (Heb 4:9-10). By contrast, none of the tattoo or beard-trimming regulations are restated for believers. As Thomas Schreiner explains: “The New Covenant brings continuity in moral norms but discontinuity in cultic symbols.” (40 Questions About Christians and the Law, 2010) Equating Leviticus 19:28 with prohibitions of murder or adultery therefore conflates distinct categories of law and misrepresents the covenantal structure of Scripture. Claim 3 – “Fulfilled in Christ doesn’t mean they no longer serve as a guide.” Correct—fulfilled does not mean abolished; it means completed in their typological purpose. Matthew 5:17 teaches that Christ fulfills the Law and the Prophets, bringing their shadows to completion. As Gordon Wenham summarizes: “Fulfillment does not imply moral indifference but the transference of holiness from ritual symbols to ethical realities.” (NICOT Leviticus, 1979) Hence, the principle behind Leviticus 19:28—avoid paganism and honor God bodily—still guides believers, but the form(a ban on all markings) no longer binds them ceremonially. Claim 4 – “Nothing in Leviticus 19 mentions mourning or pagan religion; that’s a false interpretation.” The immediate and wider literary context of Leviticus 19 refutes this claim. The chapter contains repeated contrasts with pagan customs: v. 26 – “Forbidding divination or soothsaying” v. 27 – “Forbidding shaving the sides of the head or disfiguring the beard” v. 28 – “Cuts on the body for the dead or tattoo marks” v. 31 – “Do not turn to mediums or necromancers” The phrase “for the dead” (lanefesh in Hebrew) in v. 28 explicitly ties the command to mourning rituals. Hebrew grammarian Jay Sklar explains: “The syntax connects both the cutting and the tattooing to acts done ‘for the dead’; these were expressions of pagan mourning.” (Leviticus, TOTC, 2013, p. 250) Likewise, Jacob Milgrom (Anchor Bible Leviticus) and Gordon Wenham concur that the pairing of v. 27-28 with prohibitions of divination indicates an anti-pagan polemic. Therefore, the assertion that “nothing indicates paganism or mourning” is linguistically and contextually incorrect. Claim 5 – “Millions would agree with me.” Consensus never establishes divine authority. The golden-calf episode (Ex 32) illustrates that majority practice can oppose God’s will. Francis Schaeffer cautioned: “Biblical orthodoxy stands not on majority vote but on fidelity to the text.” (The Great Evangelical Disaster, 1984) The conservative scholarly consensus—across Reformed, Baptist, and evangelical traditions—is that Leviticus 19:28 addresses pagan mourning practices and does not constitute a universal moral law. Exegetical Summary Aspect Conservative Understanding Supporting Scholars Context of Lev 19:28 Pagan mourning / necromantic rites Sklar, Wenham, Milgrom Law Category Ceremonial / cultural Grudem, Schreiner, Calvin Moral Principle Avoid idolatry; honor God bodily Piper, Storms New-Covenant Status Fulfilled in Christ; no NT restatement Rom 14:23; Gal 3:25 Conclusion The continued claim that Leviticus 19:28 “simply forbids marking oneself, period” overlooks the verse’s Hebrew construction, its literary context linking it to pagan mourning, and its covenantal placement among ceremonial laws. Conservative scholarship—including Grudem, Wenham, Sklar, and Schreiner—does not ignore the verse but interprets it within these parameters. Consequently, the accusation of “incorrect interpretation” represents disagreement with the text’s contextual reading, not a refutation of it. Quote
blackbird Posted November 12, 2025 Author Report Posted November 12, 2025 (edited) 54 minutes ago, User said: Leviticus 19:28 belongs to that ceremonial sphere; it defined Israel’s separation from pagan mourning customs, not an eternal moral law. No, it is not ceremonial law. It is just common sense. I gave you New Testament verses that show a believer is a new creature in Christ. Old things are passed away. Our bodies belong to the Lord and should not be defaced with tattoos. It's as simple as that. Tattooing is a gross worldly thing of the flesh, the world, and the devil. No Christian in his right mind would think it is acceptable. I realize we have many so-called authorities, who have built up a name for themselves and have large followings. But they are deceived and deceiving others. That is a kind of cult. Same with all the so-called scholars who push corrupt versions of the Bible on the masses in seminaries and Bible colleges. They are a Nicolaitan in their behavior. That means they think because they took courses, got degrees, that they somehow have special knowledge and the laity are ignorant. They also are out to appease the masses of unbelievers out there, telling them it doesn't matter how they dress, they can get tattoos and look like the rest of the world. It's liberalism. Some of them lead or are involved in seeker friendly churches. That want the world to come into the church and nobody has to change. They have rock bands in their so-called churches, encourage the Charismatic heresies, and dress any way they feel like it, including tattoos. Edited November 12, 2025 by blackbird Quote
User Posted November 12, 2025 Report Posted November 12, 2025 3 hours ago, blackbird said: No, it is not ceremonial law. Preliminary Note — Selective Engagement The response again isolates a single sentence from a much larger body of carefully cited information—Hebrew analysis, covenantal categories, NT continuity/discontinuity, and multiple conservative scholars—all of which it leaves unaddressed. A productive discussion requires interacting with all the provided arguments, not only with one phrase removed from its context. Ignoring context is precisely what conservative biblical hermeneutics warns against. Claim 1 — “It is not ceremonial law. It is just common sense.” Biblical authority is not based on “common sense” but textual meaning in historical context. Scripture repeatedly warns against judging spiritual matters on the basis of human intuition: Proverbs 14:12 — “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.” Isaiah 55:8 — “My thoughts are not your thoughts.” Scholarly classification of Levitical laws is based not on “common sense,” but on: Hebrew grammar Historical context Canonical repetition in the NT Covenantal categories used by Christ and Paul This is why conservative theologians—including Calvin, Wenham, Grudem, Schreiner, and Sklar—categorize Leviticus 19:28 as a ceremonial / cultural law, not a moral one. Simply asserting “it is not ceremonial” without addressing the Hebrew syntax (“for the dead”), the surrounding pagan prohibitions, or the absence of NT repetition does not constitute exegesis. Claim 2 — “New Testament verses say we are new creatures, so Christians must not have tattoos.” The cited verses (Col 3:10; 1 Cor 3:16) speak about regeneration, holiness, and moral purity, not external appearance or markings. The New Testament nowhere connects “new creation” to: clothing hairstyles jewelry circumcision piercings cultural adornment or tattoos Sam Storms notes: “The new nature is expressed in righteousness and holiness, not in identical outward appearance.” (Enjoying God) John Piper makes the same point: “Nothing in Colossians 3 or 1 Corinthians 3 specifies what believers may wear or put on the body.” (Desiring God) To convert “new creation” into an external dress code is to impose meaning not present in the text. Claim 3 — “Tattooing is a worldly thing of the flesh, the world, and the devil.” This is an assertion, not a biblical argument. Scripture defines “the flesh” as sinful desires, not ink on the skin (Gal 5:19–21). Scripture defines “worldliness” as lust, pride, and rebellion (1 John 2:15–17). Scripture defines “the devil’s works” as idolatry, lies, hatred, immorality (John 8:44; 1 John 3:8). None of these categories apply to a tattoo in itself. The content of the tattoo may be sinful; the act of marking skin is morally neutral—just like clothing, hair, or jewelry. Claim 4 — “No Christian in his right mind would think it is acceptable.” This statement dismisses thousands of conservative theologians, pastors, and believers who hold a high view of Scripture. It replaces biblical argument with personal opinion and gatekeeping of who qualifies as “in their right mind.” R.C. Sproul, often considered one of the most conservative theologians of the last century, warned against this approach: “We must never bind another’s conscience where Scripture itself has not bound it.” (Everyone’s a Theologian) Claim 5 — “Authorities with degrees are Nicolaitan, cultic, deceived, liberal, etc.” This again avoids the actual arguments and shifts to broad accusations: “cult” “deceived” “liberalism” “Nicolaitanism” “seeker-friendly compromise” None of these accusations engage: the Hebrew meaning of qaʿaqaʿ the pairing with “for the dead” Leviticus 19’s anti-pagan structure NT treatment of ceremonial laws covenantal fulfillment lack of NT prohibition Moreover, Revelation’s Nicolaitans promoted sexual immorality and idolatry, not differences over cultural customs or exegesis. Craig Keener notes: “Nicolaitanism concerned participation in pagan idolatry, not interpretive disagreements among believers.” (NIV Application Commentary: Revelation) Calling conservative scholars “Nicolaitans” is historically inaccurate. Claim 6 — “They want the world to come into the church and nobody has to change.” This is a sweeping generalization that does not describe: Grudem Piper Schreiner Wenham Sklar All of whom are: complementarian pro-inerrancy anti-liberal anti-seeker-sensitive anti-charismatic excess pro-church discipline pro-holiness They affirm tattoos not because of liberal compromise, but because of contextual, covenantally consistent exegesis of Leviticus 19:28. Equating them with seeker-sensitive churches is factually incorrect. Summary Issue Respondent’s Claim Scholarly / Biblical Correction Law category “Not ceremonial” Hebrew context + covenant theology show it is ceremonial New creation “Prohibits tattoos” NT applies this to holiness, not appearance Worldliness “Tattoo = flesh” Scripture defines flesh by sin, not ink Right mind “No real Christian” Sproul: don’t bind where Scripture doesn’t Scholars “Cult / Nicolaitan / liberal” Factually untrue; they are conservative theologians Seeker-friendly “They want worldliness” Grudem/Piper are the opposite of seeker-sensitive Conclusion The new response bypasses every exegetical, historical, linguistic, and covenantal argument previously presented. Instead, it substitutes moral assertions, broad condemnations, and claims of liberalism—none of which address the text of Scripture or the scholarly evidence. Conservative biblical scholarship remains unanimous: Leviticus 19:28 forbids pagan mourning rites, not all body marking for all believers in all times. Quote
blackbird Posted November 12, 2025 Author Report Posted November 12, 2025 (edited) 16 minutes ago, User said: Preliminary Note — Selective Engagement The response again isolates a single sentence from a much larger body of carefully cited information—Hebrew analysis, covenantal categories, NT continuity/discontinuity, and multiple conservative scholars—all of which it leaves unaddressed. A productive discussion requires interacting with all the provided arguments, not only with one phrase removed from its context. Ignoring context is precisely what conservative biblical hermeneutics warns against. Claim 1 — “It is not ceremonial law. It is just common sense.” Biblical authority is not based on “common sense” but textual meaning in historical context. Scripture repeatedly warns against judging spiritual matters on the basis of human intuition: Proverbs 14:12 — “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.” Isaiah 55:8 — “My thoughts are not your thoughts.” Scholarly classification of Levitical laws is based not on “common sense,” but on: Hebrew grammar Historical context Canonical repetition in the NT Covenantal categories used by Christ and Paul This is why conservative theologians—including Calvin, Wenham, Grudem, Schreiner, and Sklar—categorize Leviticus 19:28 as a ceremonial / cultural law, not a moral one. Simply asserting “it is not ceremonial” without addressing the Hebrew syntax (“for the dead”), the surrounding pagan prohibitions, or the absence of NT repetition does not constitute exegesis. Claim 2 — “New Testament verses say we are new creatures, so Christians must not have tattoos.” The cited verses (Col 3:10; 1 Cor 3:16) speak about regeneration, holiness, and moral purity, not external appearance or markings. The New Testament nowhere connects “new creation” to: clothing hairstyles jewelry circumcision piercings cultural adornment or tattoos Sam Storms notes: “The new nature is expressed in righteousness and holiness, not in identical outward appearance.” (Enjoying God) John Piper makes the same point: “Nothing in Colossians 3 or 1 Corinthians 3 specifies what believers may wear or put on the body.” (Desiring God) To convert “new creation” into an external dress code is to impose meaning not present in the text. Claim 3 — “Tattooing is a worldly thing of the flesh, the world, and the devil.” This is an assertion, not a biblical argument. Scripture defines “the flesh” as sinful desires, not ink on the skin (Gal 5:19–21). Scripture defines “worldliness” as lust, pride, and rebellion (1 John 2:15–17). Scripture defines “the devil’s works” as idolatry, lies, hatred, immorality (John 8:44; 1 John 3:8). None of these categories apply to a tattoo in itself. The content of the tattoo may be sinful; the act of marking skin is morally neutral—just like clothing, hair, or jewelry. Claim 4 — “No Christian in his right mind would think it is acceptable.” This statement dismisses thousands of conservative theologians, pastors, and believers who hold a high view of Scripture. It replaces biblical argument with personal opinion and gatekeeping of who qualifies as “in their right mind.” R.C. Sproul, often considered one of the most conservative theologians of the last century, warned against this approach: “We must never bind another’s conscience where Scripture itself has not bound it.” (Everyone’s a Theologian) Claim 5 — “Authorities with degrees are Nicolaitan, cultic, deceived, liberal, etc.” This again avoids the actual arguments and shifts to broad accusations: “cult” “deceived” “liberalism” “Nicolaitanism” “seeker-friendly compromise” None of these accusations engage: the Hebrew meaning of qaʿaqaʿ the pairing with “for the dead” Leviticus 19’s anti-pagan structure NT treatment of ceremonial laws covenantal fulfillment lack of NT prohibition Moreover, Revelation’s Nicolaitans promoted sexual immorality and idolatry, not differences over cultural customs or exegesis. Craig Keener notes: “Nicolaitanism concerned participation in pagan idolatry, not interpretive disagreements among believers.” (NIV Application Commentary: Revelation) Calling conservative scholars “Nicolaitans” is historically inaccurate. Claim 6 — “They want the world to come into the church and nobody has to change.” This is a sweeping generalization that does not describe: Grudem Piper Schreiner Wenham Sklar All of whom are: complementarian pro-inerrancy anti-liberal anti-seeker-sensitive anti-charismatic excess pro-church discipline pro-holiness They affirm tattoos not because of liberal compromise, but because of contextual, covenantally consistent exegesis of Leviticus 19:28. Equating them with seeker-sensitive churches is factually incorrect. Summary Issue Respondent’s Claim Scholarly / Biblical Correction Law category “Not ceremonial” Hebrew context + covenant theology show it is ceremonial New creation “Prohibits tattoos” NT applies this to holiness, not appearance Worldliness “Tattoo = flesh” Scripture defines flesh by sin, not ink Right mind “No real Christian” Sproul: don’t bind where Scripture doesn’t Scholars “Cult / Nicolaitan / liberal” Factually untrue; they are conservative theologians Seeker-friendly “They want worldliness” Grudem/Piper are the opposite of seeker-sensitive Conclusion The new response bypasses every exegetical, historical, linguistic, and covenantal argument previously presented. Instead, it substitutes moral assertions, broad condemnations, and claims of liberalism—none of which address the text of Scripture or the scholarly evidence. Conservative biblical scholarship remains unanimous: Leviticus 19:28 forbids pagan mourning rites, not all body marking for all believers in all times. 10 Biblical Reasons Not to Get a Tattoo Posted byMartin Lawrence and Arquette Erica DateMay 27, 2025 Tattoos spark debate among believers. Some see them as art, others as contrary to faith. Why might the Bible caution against tattoos? As someone who’s studied scripture for years, I believe avoiding tattoos aligns with biblical principles for some Christians. This article explores 10 biblical reasons not to get a tattoo, each grounded in a Bible verse. Let’s examine what scripture says about tattoos and faith. Table of Contents ① Body as God’s Temple ② Old Testament Prohibition ③ Avoiding Worldly Conformity ④ Stewardship of Resources ⑤ Focus on Inner Beauty ⑥ Avoiding Regret ⑦ Honoring God’s Image ⑧ Witness to Others ⑨ Health and Safety Risks ⑩ Seeking God’s Will Aligning Tattoos and Faith The Bible offers guidance on our bodies and choices. While tattoos are popular—32% of adults have one, per a 2023 Pew Research study—some Christians pause. What does scripture teach? It emphasizes stewardship, holiness, and discernment. I’ve seen avoiding tattoos reflect a desire to honor God. These points offer biblical perspectives. This topic invites reflection. Tattoos and faith raise questions about identity and devotion. Why consider these reasons? They help align decisions with biblical values. Each point below draws from scripture and careful thought. Let’s dive in with open hearts. “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” – Matthew 22:37 This verse calls us to honor God fully, including with our bodies. Let’s uncover 10 biblical reasons not to get a tattoo, rooted in scripture. Ready to explore? Here we go. ① Body as God’s Temple Our bodies are sacred. Why does this matter? Scripture calls them temples of the Holy Spirit. Tattooing may be seen as altering God’s creation. I believe honoring our bodies means keeping them as God designed. Avoiding tattoos respects this principle. 1. Preserves body’s natural state. 2. Honors God’s design. 3. Reflects spiritual stewardship. Bible Verse: “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God?” – 1 Corinthians 6:19 Tattoos and faith call for careful stewardship. ② Old Testament Prohibition Scripture directly addresses markings. How does this apply? Leviticus explicitly warns against tattoos. While some argue it’s outdated, I see it as a call to holiness. Avoiding tattoos aligns with this command. Principle Biblical Guidance Holiness Avoid body markings Obedience Follow God’s law Purity Reflect God’s will Bible Verse: “You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the Lord.” – Leviticus 19:28 Not getting a tattoo honors ancient guidance. ③ Avoiding Worldly Conformity Christians are called to stand apart. Why avoid worldly trends? Tattoos often follow cultural fads. I’ve noticed faith calls us to distinctiveness. Avoiding tattoos resists worldly pressures. Bible Verse: “Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind.” – Romans 12:2 Tattoos and faith urge us to prioritize God’s values. ④ Stewardship of Resources Tattoos cost time and money. How does this relate to faith? Scripture calls us to use resources wisely. I believe spending on tattoos may divert from God’s purposes. Not getting a tattoo prioritizes stewardship. Bible Verse: “As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God’s varied grace.” – 1 Peter 4:10 Avoiding tattoos reflects responsible stewardship. ⑤ Focus on Inner Beauty God values the heart. Why prioritize inner beauty? Tattoos emphasize external appearance. I’ve found true beauty lies in character. Avoiding tattoos shifts focus to the soul. 1. Cultivates godly character. 2. Honors inner transformation. 3. Reflects God’s priorities. Bible Verse: “Man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.” – 1 Samuel 16:7 Tattoos and faith highlight inner over outer. Read our blog on 20 Reasons to Thank God ⑥ Avoiding Regret Tattoos are permanent. Why consider permanence? Many regret tattoos later. I believe scripture encourages thoughtful decisions. Not getting a tattoo prevents future remorse. Bible Verse: “Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but he who makes his ways crooked will be found out.” – Proverbs 10:9 Avoiding tattoos promotes careful choices. ⑦ Honoring God’s Image We’re made in God’s image. How does this guide us? Altering our bodies may dishonor His design. I see avoiding tattoos as respecting our divine creation. Bible Verse: “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him.” – Genesis 1:27 Tattoos and faith call us to honor God’s image. ⑧ Witness to Others Our choices reflect faith. Why does this matter? Tattoos may cause others to stumble. I’ve seen believers choose not getting a tattoo to uphold their witness. “Let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father.” – Matthew 5:16 Bible Verse: “Abstain from every form of evil.” – 1 Thessalonians 5:22 Avoiding tattoos strengthens our testimony. ⑨ Health and Safety Risks Tattoos carry risks. How does this align with faith? Infections or allergic reactions can harm the body. I believe caring for our health honors God. Not getting a tattoo prioritizes safety. Bible Verse: “So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” – 1 Corinthians 10:31 Tattoos and faith emphasize body care. ⑩ Seeking God’s Will Faith seeks God’s guidance. Why prioritize His will? Tattoos may reflect personal desires over God’s plan. I’ve found peace in aligning choices with prayer. Avoiding tattoos seeks God first. Bible Verse: “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.” – Proverbs 3:5 Not getting a tattoo reflects trust in God. Read our blog on 3 Reasons Why God Allows Suffering Aligning Tattoos and Faith These 10 biblical reasons not to get a tattoo offer a faith-based perspective. Why reflect on this? Because tattoos and faith involve choices that honor God. I believe scripture guides us to stewardship and holiness. From God’s temple to His image, avoiding tattoos aligns with biblical values. The choice is personal but profound. Not getting a tattoo respects God’s design and witness. What’s guiding your decisions? Scripture provides clarity. Prayer and discernment lead the way. Let’s seek God’s will. How can you honor Him? Reflect, pray, and study His word. 1. Seek God in prayer. 2. Study scripture for guidance. 3. Live as God’s witness. Avoiding tattoos is a faith journey. Let’s walk it with purpose. 10 Biblical Reasons Not To Get A Tattoo Edited November 12, 2025 by blackbird Quote
User Posted November 12, 2025 Report Posted November 12, 2025 6 minutes ago, blackbird said: 10 Biblical Reasons Not to Get a Tattoo The article that was pasted does not engage with any of the actual biblical, linguistic, or theological arguments already presented. Instead, it restates generic devotional opinions without addressing: the Hebrew grammar of Leviticus 19:28, the passage’s pagan mourning context, the distinction between moral vs. ceremonial laws, the New Testament’s handling of the Mosaic code, or the interpretation of conservative Old Testament scholars (Wenham, Sklar, Milgrom). Because of this, the article does not refute the scholarly case already given. Below is the point-by-point rebuttal. 1. “Body as God’s temple” (1 Cor 6:19) Contextual Misuse. 1 Corinthians 6:19 addresses sexual immorality, not appearance. Every major conservative commentary agrees: Thomas Schreiner Craig Blomberg John MacArthur None interpret this verse as forbidding tattoos, haircuts, hairstyles, jewelry, or cultural clothing. 2. “Old Testament prohibition” (Leviticus 19:28) This is the only actual tattoo verse, and it has already been explained in detail. The article ignores: the Hebrew phrase “for the dead” (lanefesh), the pairing of cutting + marking, the placement in a section condemning pagan mourning rituals, and the consensus of conservative OT scholars: Gordon Wenham (NICOT): Tattooing here refers to pagan mourning rites. Jay Sklar (TOTC): The ban relates to idolatrous expressions of grief. Jacob Milgrom (Anchor Bible): These markings were cultic symbols tied to the dead. The article simply quotes the verse without interpreting it. 3. “Avoiding conformity to the world” (Rom 12:2) Romans 12:2 speaks of moral conformity, not cultural aesthetics. D.A. Carson: “Conformity refers to sinful values, not hairstyles or adornment.” R.C. Sproul: “This text concerns ethics, not externals.” This passage has nothing to do with tattoos. 4. “Stewardship of resources” (1 Pet 4:10) This logic would forbid: art vacations recreation any non-survival purchase No NT writer uses stewardship passages to prohibit body adornment. 5. “Focus on inner beauty” (1 Sam 16:7) The verse literally teaches the opposite of the argument: God looks at the heart, not outward appearance. As Bruce Waltke notes: “God disregards external appearance as a measure of spirituality.” It cannot be used to forbid tattoos. 6. “Avoiding regret” (Prov 10:9) This is not a biblical principle for outlawing anything. If potential regret = prohibition, then marriage, children, careers, and every decision in life would be sinful. Wisdom literature speaks in generalities, not tattoo bans. 7. “Honoring God’s image” (Gen 1:27) Imago Dei refers to: rationality morality relational capacity It does not refer to outward appearance. No theological tradition defines the image of God as forbidding jewelry, piercings, hairstyles, or ink. 8. “Witness to others” (1 Thess 5:22) “Abstain from every form of evil” means actual evil, not “anything someone dislikes.” This logic would forbid: guitars jeans wedding rings Bible translations other than the KJV This is not a valid hermeneutic. 9. “Health risks” (1 Cor 10:31) Health prudence ≠ biblical prohibition. If health concerns banned tattoos, they would also ban: driving home heating sports power tools eating sugar The Bible never bans neutral practices on the basis of medical risk. 10. “Seeking God’s will” (Prov 3:5) Correct—but seeking God’s will does not require inventing moral bans where Scripture provides none. John Piper: “Do not bind conscience where Scripture has not bound it.” Wayne Grudem: “Christian liberty is a necessary part of Christian obedience.” Prudence is wise; prohibitions require biblical authority. FINAL SUMMARY Every argument in the “10 Reasons” article: misuses verses out of context, avoids Hebrew analysis, ignores covenantal categories, ignores conservative scholarship, and does not address a single point of the actual exegetical case. Meanwhile, the mainstream conservative scholarly position remains unchanged: Leviticus 19:28 addresses pagan mourning rituals and is not a universal moral ban. No New Testament passage forbids tattoos. All moral evaluation depends on motive, modesty, and content—not the presence of ink. The article provides zero exegetical refutation of any of this. Quote
blackbird Posted November 12, 2025 Author Report Posted November 12, 2025 6 minutes ago, User said: The article provides zero exegetical refutation of any of this. My post certainly does. It depends how you think of it. I would say the following reason to not get tattoos is one of the most important reasons: ① Body as God’s Temple Our bodies are sacred. Why does this matter? Scripture calls them temples of the Holy Spirit. Tattooing may be seen as altering God’s creation. I believe honoring our bodies means keeping them as God designed. Avoiding tattoos respects this principle. 1. Preserves body’s natural state. 2. Honors God’s design. 3. Reflects spiritual stewardship. Bible Verse: “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God?” – 1 Corinthians 6:19 Tattoos are not a good witness. Quote
User Posted November 13, 2025 Report Posted November 13, 2025 5 minutes ago, blackbird said: My post certainly does. It depends how you think of it. I would say the following reason to not get tattoos is one of the most important reasons: 1. Citing a Verse Is Not the Same as Interpreting It (Exegesis vs. Assertion) Your reply quotes 1 Corinthians 6:19 but does not provide exegesis—the interpretation of the verse in its original context. Every major conservative New Testament scholar agrees that this passage concerns sexual immorality, not external markings: Thomas Schreiner Craig Blomberg Leon Morris John MacArthur None of these men—recognized for conservative, high-view-of-Scripture teaching—apply 1 Cor 6:19 to tattoos, jewelry, hairstyles, piercings, or cultural adornment. A verse quoted without context does not refute an argument. 2. The Context of 1 Corinthians 6:12–20 Refutes Its Application to Tattoos The entire passage is about fornication, not appearance: v. 15–16: “Shall I take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute?” v. 18: “Flee sexual immorality.” v. 18: “Every other sin is outside the body, but sexual immorality sins against the body.” There is no textual reference to body markings, adornment, or external modification. Applying this passage to tattoos is eisegesis (reading ideas into Scripture), not exegesis. 3. “Altering God’s Creation” Is Not a Biblical Category If altering the body is inherently sinful, then so are: haircuts shaving pierced ears circumcision surgery braces clothing grooming of any kind Scripture never uses “unaltered physical form” as a moral command. Holiness in the NT is inward, ethical, and spiritual—not anatomical. 4. “Preserving the Body’s Natural State” Has No Scriptural Basis Human bodies change constantly—injuries, aging, scars, medical treatment. Nothing in the Bible commands Christians to maintain a pristine physical “natural state.” This is a cultural preference, not biblical doctrine. 5. “Tattoos Are Not a Good Witness” Is Subjective, Not Biblical Biblical witness is defined by: holiness (1 Pet 1:15–16) character (Gal 5:22–23) speech (Col 4:6) conduct (1 Pet 2:12) No biblical text states or implies that tattoos inherently harm Christian witness. This is personal opinion, not Scripture. Historically, Christians (e.g., Copts) have even used tattoos to strengthen their witness. 6. The Key Exegetical Issues Remain Unanswered Your response again avoids the actual biblical analysis already presented: The Hebrew phrase “for the dead” (lanefesh). Leviticus 19:28’s location in a block of pagan ritual prohibitions (vv. 26–31). The grammatical pairing of cutting + marking as mourning rites. The distinction between moral vs. ceremonial law recognized since Calvin and the Reformers. The fact that the NT does not restate any tattoo prohibition. Conservative scholarly consensus (Wenham, Sklar, Milgrom) on the meaning of Lev 19:28. Grudem, Schreiner, Piper, MacArthur—all of whom address the verse and deny it is morally binding today. None of this has been addressed or refuted. 7. Conclusion The argument based on 1 Corinthians 6:19 is: contextually incorrect, exegetically unsupported, and does not address the Old Testament or New Covenant issues at the heart of the discussion. Thus, it does not constitute an exegetical refutation. It is a restatement of a personal belief, not a biblical argument grounded in textual analysis. Quote
blackbird Posted November 13, 2025 Author Report Posted November 13, 2025 13 hours ago, User said: It is a restatement of a personal belief, not a biblical argument grounded in textual analysis. No I don't agree. The Bible is full of teachings that a Christian (Bible believer) is a new creature in Christ. Holiness is a central part of sanctification or growing in holiness. We are to seek holiness in our lives, not put on worldly images such as tattooing our bodies. "In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." What is holiness? How can we be holy? The word translated "holiness" in the New Testament means to be "set apart." In the Old Testament, holiness was generally connected with God's perfection. How can we be set apart and perfect? All people have sinned (Romans 3:23) and are imperfect. Our only option to be set apart is through the salvation offered through Jesus Christ (John 3:16; Romans 10:9; Ephesians 2:8-9). When we believe in Jesus as Lord, He cleanses us from sin and makes us holy (1 John 1:7). Theologians often refer to this concept as positional sanctification. First Peter 2:9 speaks of this new status as well: "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." God calls us holy even though we still commit sins during this life. In addition to being "made" holy, we are called to live holy lives. First Peter 1:15 teaches, "As he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct." The previous verse adds, "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance" (v. 14). We are commanded to avoid the ways we practiced before becoming a Christian and live according to God's ways. We can only do this by living by the power of God's Spirit, following the principles found in God's Word. Theologians refer to this daily practice of living for God to become more holy as progressive sanctification. As we seek to follow God's will each day, we can increasingly become holy as we become more like Christ. Our goal should be to say like Paul, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1). Regardless of the progress we make to become more holy in this life, we will never be perfect. We will still sin at times, as Paul wrote in Romans 7:18-19, "For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." It will only be in heaven that all sin will be removed from our lives and we are made perfect. Theologians refer to this as perfective sanctification. These three concepts can be very helpful in our daily walk with God. When we are saved, we are made holy. In addition, we are called to obey God and grow in holy living each day. Though we will never be perfect in this life, God can and will work in our lives to help us better live for Him. After this life, we can anticipate a perfect, eternal existence with God in which we no longer sin and are made perfectly holy, living in the presence of God forever." What is holiness according to the Bible? How can I be holy? - Compelling Truth Tattoos portray the wrong image for someone who is striving to serve God in his/her life. Instead of marking our bodies with pictures and ornaments, we are to put on Christ and grow in holy living each day. Quote
User Posted November 13, 2025 Report Posted November 13, 2025 1 hour ago, blackbird said: No I don't agree. The Bible is full of teachings that a Christian (Bible believer) is a new creature in Christ. Holiness is a central part of sanctification or growing in holiness. Rebuttal: Holiness Theology ≠ An Exegetical Argument Against Tattoos Your response quotes multiple verses about holiness, sanctification, and being set apart. All of these are true, but none of them actually address the central question: What does the Bible say, in context, about tattoos? You have provided good theology on holiness, but no exegesis of the tattoo-related texts. Below is the precise rebuttal. 1. Everything you quoted about holiness is correct—but irrelevant to the question. No one disagrees that: Christians are new creatures in Christ, Christians pursue holiness, Christians put off the old man and put on the new, Christians must not imitate the sinful world. All of that is basic Christian doctrine. But none of those passages say: “Do not get tattoos,” “Tattoos are unholy,” “Tattoos imitate the world,” “Tattoos defile the body,” or “Tattoos violate sanctification.” General holiness commands do not create specific prohibitions. If they did, then ALL of these would be sinful: jewelry makeup haircuts wedding rings patterned clothing piercings grooming modern shoes medical procedures shaving or trimming facial hair using ink to color eyebrows, lips, or skin medically Scripture never defines holiness as “looking plain” or “avoiding marks on the skin.” You are applying holiness verses to tattoos without textual basis. That is application, not exegesis. **2. None of the passages you quoted mention tattoos. Not one.** You quoted: 1 Peter 1:15–16 1 Peter 2:9 1 Corinthians 11:1 Romans 3:23 John 3:16 Romans 10:9 Ephesians 2:8–9 Romans 7 These are excellent verses—but none of them talk about body markings. Not a single word about tattoos. Not a single prohibition of tattoos. Not a single implication about tattoos. You are drawing a conclusion not found in the text. That is the definition of eisegesis (reading an idea into Scripture), not exegesis (drawing meaning out of Scripture). 3. The only tattoo-related verse is Leviticus 19:28—and you still have not responded to the textual context. Leviticus 19:28 is the only place Scripture mentions tattooing. You have not responded to ANY of the following facts: The Hebrew phrase “for the dead” ties it to a mourning ritual. It is part of a block of laws forbidding pagan religious practices (vv. 26–31). Conservative Hebrew scholars (Sklar, Wenham, Milgrom) agree this is about pagan cultic rites. It is a ceremonial / ritual law, not a moral law. The New Testament does not repeat this command. Instead of addressing these facts, you sidestep the verse entirely and quote unrelated NT passages about sanctification. That does not refute the exegesis. 4. “Tattoos portray the wrong image” is a personal opinion—not Scripture. You wrote: “Tattoos portray the wrong image for someone striving to serve God.” That is a personal judgment, not a biblical command. If “looks worldly = sin,” then we must also condemn: wearing jeans, using a smartphone, playing a guitar, driving a modern car, using electricity, wearing patterned clothing. The Bible does NOT define holiness by “appearing culturally different.” Holiness is defined by moral purity, obedience, love, self-control, truth, and righteousness. Outward cultural markers do not equal spiritual holiness. 5. Holiness ≠ avoiding cultural symbols. Jesus wore: a seamless tunic (expensive by cultural standards), fringes on his garment (Numbers 15:38), shoes, Middle Eastern grooming practices. Paul instructed women on hairstyles and jewelry, not because they were sinful, but because they needed to reflect godly modesty within their culture. Holiness in Scripture is ethical, moral, and spiritual— not a mandate for external uniformity. **6. Conclusion: Your response repeats doctrinal truths about holiness, but it still provides zero exegetical engagement with the actual tattoo passages.** You have: not addressed the Hebrew text, not addressed the context of Leviticus 19, not addressed covenant categories, not addressed NT silence, not addressed conservative scholars, not addressed the meaning of “for the dead,” not addressed the ceremonial nature of the passage, not provided any verse that actually prohibits tattoos. You have offered: theology → yes application → yes personal preference → yes biblical exegesis → no Holiness is essential to the Christian life. But holiness does not create a prohibition Scripture itself does not give. And because your argument does not interpret any tattoo-related texts in context, it remains, as stated: a restatement of personal belief, not a biblical argument grounded in textual analysis. Quote
blackbird Posted November 13, 2025 Author Report Posted November 13, 2025 1 hour ago, User said: General holiness commands do not create specific prohibitions. If they did, then ALL of these would be sinful: jewelry makeup haircuts wedding rings patterned clothing piercings grooming modern shoes medical procedures shaving or trimming facial hair using ink to color eyebrows, lips, or skin medically You are over simplifying it. Your quoting the above and approving of anything shows you have no idea what we are even talking about. How one dresses does in fact send a message. But what kind of message does it send? You never mentioned the fact that the Bible does speak about appearance. The Apostle Paul wrote about it in 1 Corinthians 11. " 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. {power: that is a covering in sign that she is under the power of her husband} 11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. {covering: or, veil} 16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. " 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 KJV " 1 Peter 3:3-4 “Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.” – 1 Peter 3:3-4 Proverbs 31:30 “Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.” – Proverbs 31:30 Galatians 5:22-23 “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things, there is no law.” – Galatians 5:22-23 1 Timothy 2:9-10 “I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.” – 1 Timothy 2:9-10 So contrary to what you posted, there are admonitions in the Bible about how Christians should dress. Decency and propriety is a key as it says in 1 Timothy 2:9-10. While those verses are referring to women, it is implied that decency also applies to men. Decorating one's self with tattoos certainly is not something that Christians should do. That should be obvious. Quote
User Posted November 13, 2025 Report Posted November 13, 2025 1 hour ago, blackbird said: You are over simplifying it. Your quoting the above and approving of anything shows you have no idea what we are even talking about. How one dresses does in fact send a message. Rebuttal: Ignoring the Actual Argument and Introducing a Straw Man Your reply does not address the point that was made. Instead, it creates a straw-man—claiming the argument was “approving of anything” or that the point was that “appearance doesn’t matter.” But that is NOT what was said. The statement was: General holiness commands do not create specific prohibitions. This means: You cannot take a general command (“be holy,” “be modest,” “be set apart”) And use it to invent a specific rule that Scripture never states (e.g., “tattoos are forbidden”). Your response did not interact with that. You instead changed the argument into something no one said: “You are approving of anything.” That is not what was argued—hence a straw man. **1. The issue is not “appearance never matters.” The issue is: What does Scripture actually prohibit?** No one denied that Scripture gives principles for modesty and propriety. Those passages were never in question. The real question remains: Where does Scripture prohibit tattoos? You still have not provided a verse. 2. NONE of the verses you quoted are about tattoos. Let’s review them: 1 Corinthians 11:3–16 Topic: head coverings during corporate worship in 1st-century Corinth Not about tattoos. Not about body markings. Not about permanent adornment. Not about Levitical law. Every conservative commentary agrees: this passage addresses worship order, gender distinction, and honoring cultural symbols during prayer. It is not a general clothing code for all times, let alone a tattoo prohibition. 1 Peter 3:3–4 Topic: women who were relying on expensive adornment instead of godly character. Peter does not forbid jewelry or hairstyles—he warns against vanity. If this verse banned adornment, then Christian women would be forbidden to: wear jewelry braid hair wear fine clothing Peter’s point is about priorities, not prohibition. Proverbs 31:30 Topic: character > charm. No relation to tattoos. Galatians 5:22–23 Topic: fruit of the Spirit. Nothing to do with external appearance. 1 Timothy 2:9–10 Topic: modesty, simplicity, avoiding showiness. Paul does not forbid jewelry or clothing styles—he forbids extravagance and vanity. Again: nothing about body markings nothing about tattoos nothing about Leviticus 19 nothing about ceremonial law nothing about mourning for the dead You are quoting texts about modesty, not about tattoos. 3. You continue to avoid the central exegetical issue. Here is the real question: What does Leviticus 19:28 mean in its Hebrew and historical context? So far, you have not addressed ANY of the following: The phrase “for the dead” (Hebrew lanefesh) The surrounding pagan mourning and necromancy prohibitions The pairing of cutting + marking as ritual mourning The universal scholarly consensus (Wenham, Sklar, Milgrom) The moral / ceremonial law distinction The NT silence on tattoos The lack of any restated prohibition in the new covenant Instead, you switched to a completely different topic (modesty passages) that does not touch the actual argument. Quoting unrelated verses does not refute the exegesis. 4. “Decency and propriety” is not a tattoo prohibition. You wrote: “Decency and propriety is key … Decorating with tattoos is not decent or proper.” But Scripture never says this. If we turn “decency and propriety” into a rule against tattoos, then we must also forbid: patterned clothing wedding rings brooches gold jewelry stylish shoes modern haircuts makeup any cultural adornment You are importing a personal cultural preference into the biblical text. The Bible defines “decency” as: modesty avoiding vanity avoiding sensuality avoiding extravagance It does not define “decency” as “never marking the skin.” That definition is your interpretation, not Scripture’s. 5. The key point remains unaddressed. You still have not: interpreted Leviticus 19:28 in context addressed the ceremonial / ritual nature of the verse responded to the Hebrew structure shown where the NT forbids tattoos explained why conservative scholars unanimously disagree with your reading provided a single explicit NT prohibition of tattoos Instead of addressing the argument, you repeatedly shift the discussion to unrelated texts and then claim they imply a command Scripture does not make. 6. Conclusion Your response: attacks a straw-man (“you approve of anything”), quotes unrelated verses about modesty, does not address Leviticus 19:28, does not address the Hebrew context, does not address covenant theology, does not provide a single explicit biblical prohibition. This does not constitute a rebuttal. It is a redirection away from the actual exegetical question. Until you address: What does Leviticus 19:28 mean in context, and why does the New Testament never repeat it? your argument remains personal conviction, not biblical exegesis. Quote
blackbird Posted November 14, 2025 Author Report Posted November 14, 2025 22 hours ago, User said: Your reply does not address the point that was made. You think posting tons of comments in giant, bold letters makes it more legitimate? No way. It proves you don't have a good argument. Quote
User Posted November 14, 2025 Report Posted November 14, 2025 3 minutes ago, blackbird said: You think posting tons of comments in giant, bold letters makes it more legitimate? No way. It proves you don't have a good argument. The formatting has nothing to do with the argument, and bringing up formatting is simply another deflection from the actual issue. Whether text is bold or plain does not determine truth; only the biblical text in context does. The point still stands: You have not yet responded to the substance of the argument— specifically, the contextual, historical, and exegetical interpretation of Leviticus 19:28, nor the distinction between general holiness principles and specific moral prohibitions. Instead of engaging those points, your reply shifts to comments about style, which do not answer the biblical question at hand. Whenever you are ready to address the actual argument— the meaning of Leviticus 19:28 in its Hebrew, covenantal, and literary context— Let me know. Quote
blackbird Posted November 14, 2025 Author Report Posted November 14, 2025 (edited) 52 minutes ago, User said: Whenever you are ready to address the actual argument— the meaning of Leviticus 19:28 in its Hebrew, covenantal, and literary context— Let me know. You are hiding behind some phony claim that somehow a Hebrew, covenantal argument means something different than the plain command. It is clear in English. We don't need the Hebrew. Just because the word tattoo is not used in the New Testament doesn't mean it is acceptable to be tattooed. We are to be holy and holiness doesn't include marking the body up with tattoos. It's the same reason we shouldn't put rings in our noses or other heathen practices that savages in the jungle do. Our goal should be to say like Paul, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1). Edited November 14, 2025 by blackbird Quote
User Posted November 14, 2025 Report Posted November 14, 2025 6 minutes ago, blackbird said: 57 minutes ago, User said: You are hiding behind some phony claim… Your response once again avoids the central issue: What does Leviticus 19:28 actually mean in its original context? Instead of addressing that, you responded with three points that do not engage the text itself: 1. “We don’t need Hebrew; the English is clear.” This rejects the historical-grammatical method of interpretation used by: Calvin Luther John Owen B.B. Warfield Charles Spurgeon J.I. Packer Wayne Grudem John Piper Every conservative evangelical seminary on earth The Bible was not written in English, and no responsible method of interpretation ignores: original languages cultural context covenant structure surrounding verses authorial intent If “plain English” were enough, nobody would ever need a pastor, teacher, or commentary. Every heresy in church history came from someone saying, “The English is clear; no need for context.” 2. You again avoided the actual content of Leviticus 19:28 You still have not addressed ANY of the following facts: The phrase “for the dead” appears in the verse. The command is paired with cutting the flesh, a pagan mourning ritual. The entire section (Lev 19:26–31) condemns pagan practices, not generic decoration. Every major conservative Hebrew scholar—from Wenham to Sklar to Milgrom—interprets this as a pagan mourning prohibition, not a universal ban. The New Testament does not repeat it. It appears in the midst of ceremonial laws, many of which you yourself do not follow. Ignoring these points does not make them disappear. 3. “Holiness doesn’t include tattoos” is not a biblical statement—it's your opinion. You have still not provided a single verse that says: “Tattoos are unholy,” “Tattoos are worldly,” “Tattoos defile the body,” “Tattoos imitate the heathen,” “Tattoos violate sanctification.” Holiness in the New Testament is defined by: moral righteousness purity obedience love humility self-control Not by: skin markings clothing styles cultural aesthetics If “holiness = no body markings,” then circumcision, ear piercing, and cosmetic procedures are also unholy—which Scripture nowhere teaches. 4. You replaced biblical argument with cultural prejudice. You wrote: “Rings in our noses or heathen practices that savages in the jungle do.” This is not a biblical argument. It is a cultural objection. But Scripture explicitly mentions nose rings as normal adornment: Genesis 24:22 – Abraham’s servant gives Rebekah a nose ring. Ezekiel 16:12 – God Himself says, “I put a ring in your nose.” Isaiah 3:21 – Nose rings listed among normal jewelry in Israel. So Scripture contradicts your claim directly. If your argument forbids tattoos because “savages do it,” then it also forbids jewelry, hairstyles, dancing, music, and dozens of things that cultures around the world do. This is not biblical reasoning. 5. “Be imitators of me” (1 Cor 11:1) does not address tattoos. Paul is speaking about: humility sacrificial love sexual purity unity in the body perseverance under suffering Paul never mentions tattoos. Paul never forbids tattoos. Paul never ties sanctification to aesthetic uniformity. To use “imitate me” as a tattoo ban is to insert a meaning Paul never wrote. Conclusion Your response does not engage: the Hebrew text, the covenant context, the structure of Leviticus 19, the ceremonial moral distinction, the NT fulfillment of the Mosaic code, or the scholarly interpretation. Instead: You dismissed context (“plain English is enough”). You replaced biblical argument with cultural insult. You created prohibitions Scripture never states. The original point still stands: Holiness commands do not create specific rules that Scripture itself does not give. A biblical prohibition must come from actual exegesis, not assumption. When you are ready to address the meaning of Leviticus 19:28 in its actual context, we can continue fruitfully. Quote
blackbird Posted November 14, 2025 Author Report Posted November 14, 2025 10 minutes ago, User said: 3. “Holiness doesn’t include tattoos” is not a biblical statement—it's your opinion. You have still not provided a single verse that says: “Tattoos are unholy,” “Tattoos are worldly,” “Tattoos defile the body,” “Tattoos imitate the heathen,” “Tattoos violate sanctification.” Holiness in the New Testament is defined by: moral righteousness purity obedience love humility self-control Not by: skin markings clothing styles cultural aesthetics If “holiness = no body markings,” then circumcision, ear piercing, and cosmetic procedures are also unholy—which Scripture nowhere teaches. Circumcision is not unholy. It has often been done for health reasons. I am not sure why you would use that as an example. It doesn't fall into the category of body markings either. You seem to be reaching. I never said cosmetic procedures or ear piercing were wrong either. Not sure what kind of cosmetic procedure you're talking about. Again you are reaching. Clothing styles are a grey area. Depends. I gave you N.T. verses to show how women are to dress modestly. quote Modification – Since the Bible does not explicitly forbid tattoos, are there any limits? We know our body is not our own but God’s temple (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). The Bible highly views the body as God’s handiwork, which is not to be disfigured. Non-Israelites did not hold this view. Today, some have permanently modified their bodies to look more like animals or aliens than humans, who alone are created in his image. We must ask ourselves how much we can modify our bodies to suit our desires while not disfiguring the beauty of the human form as God made it. Motive for a Tattoo – Why get a tattoo? If it is in rebellion to parents, it is clearly not acceptable (Ephesians 6:1-3). And while artistic self-expression can be OK, our primary motive for anything we do should be to glorify God (1 Corinthians 10:31). This means seeking to honor and draw attention to him, not ourselves. Getting a tattoo for purposes of a witness may be acceptable, but remember, this is not the primary or most effective way to evangelize. It is in no way a substitute for verbally communicating the gospel. You are not fulfilling the Great Commission simply because you have a Bible verse tattoo. Modesty – Modesty means not being self-promoting. Are you seeking to direct people’s thoughts toward God or yourself? Tattoos often accentuate certain body areas and get our thoughts on that body part. It is hard to believe that anyone with a “tramp stamp” (a tattoo on the lower back) is seeking to direct people’s thoughts toward God. Thinking modestly will lead you to think about, and even limit, the size, number, and locations of tattoos. Marketability – Will employers want to hire you? Numerous companies don’t want your tattoo to be visible, and it can prevent you from being hired. Many employers will restrict your tattoos, requiring you to cover them up because they are not socially acceptable from a business standpoint. Message of the Tattoo – What is it about yourself that you want to communicate to the world? Tattoos are powerful messages, automatically conveying what you value. They are nearly permanent and will likely be with you for life. A growing experience with tattoos is officially called “tattoo regret.” As you mature, you may, like increasing numbers of people, regret your tattoos because you have outgrown their messages and changed your values. Money – Is this the wisest use of money? One website, Tattoo Info, says, “In America, you can expect a basic price of $80 to $100 an hour...very few shops will ever touch you for less than $40” (2004-2009). We are responsible to God for how we use our money. It’s also important to remember that the removal technologies being developed are even more expensive than the cost of getting a tattoo in the first place. Medical concerns – There are real health risks with tattoos. The Mayo Clinic warns, “Don’t take tattooing lightly”. They’ve resulted in severe allergic reactions, infections, unsightly scars, and blood-borne diseases like Hepatitis B and C. Tattooing deliberately opens the skin and exposes your blood to unknown bacteria. Tattoo parlors are not medical clinics, although they puncture the skin and expose blood. Please, think before you ink. Don’t make this decision hastily or rashly. Use these guiding questions to think through your decision. Discuss them with mature Christian adults you trust. Join in the discussion and let us know your thoughts in the Crosswalk.com Forum! What Does the Bible Say About Tattoos...Are They Sinful? | Crosswalk.com Quote
User Posted November 14, 2025 Report Posted November 14, 2025 8 minutes ago, blackbird said: Circumcision is not unholy… Your response does not address the actual biblical point being made. Instead, several new issues were introduced that do not answer the core question: What does Scripture actually prohibit? Let’s go through your reply carefully. 1. Another Straw Man Argument You wrote: “Circumcision is not unholy… not sure why you used that example.” But circumcision was never presented as “unholy.” The point was that circumcision is a permanent modification of the body, which Scripture not only permits but commands—showing that bodily alteration is not inherently sinful. You dismissed the example by misrepresenting it. Similarly, you wrote: “I never said cosmetic procedures or ear piercing were wrong.” Exactly—that is the point. If tattoos are forbidden because they “modify the body,” then so are piercings and procedures. But you accept some modifications and condemn others—with no biblical criteria provided for why one is allowed and the other forbidden. This demonstrates a subjective standard, not a biblical one. 2. You still have not addressed Leviticus 19:28. You again avoided the actual exegetical issues: the phrase “for the dead” its pairing with cutting (a pagan mourning ritual) its placement alongside bans on necromancy, sorcery, divination the conservative scholarly consensus (Wenham, Sklar, Milgrom) the moral/civil/ceremonial distinction used by Reformed theology since Calvin the fact that the New Testament never restates the prohibition Instead, you pasted an opinion article listing prudential warnings (risk, money, regret, employment, etc.). Those may be practical concerns—but they are not biblical prohibitions. You have still not provided a verse interpreting Leviticus 19:28 in context. **3. You’ve shifted from “tattoos are sinful” to “tattoos might be unwise.” These are not the same argument.** Most of what you pasted is not moral argument at all—it is practical advice: marketability regrets health risks cost difficulty of removal These may be real considerations. But none of them prove that tattoos are sinful or forbidden by Scripture. They simply argue that tattoos may be impractical or unwise for some people. That is a very different claim than: “Tattooing is sinful and forbidden.” Prudential concerns ≠ moral prohibitions. 4. Your own quoted article admits tattoos are not banned by the Bible. The Crosswalk article you pasted states: “Since the Bible does not explicitly forbid tattoos…” This contradicts your original claim. You have argued that tattoos are: sinful worldly heathen defiling forbidden heretical But the article you pasted says the Bible does not explicitly forbid them. That is exactly the position I have been making. 5. Every passage you keep quoting still avoids the real question. The verses you cited (1 Tim 2:9–10, 1 Pet 3:3–4, etc.) teach: modesty humility avoiding vanity They do not teach: “tattoos are unholy,” “tattoos violate modesty,” “tattoos are defiling,” “tattoos are forbidden.” If modesty is the principle, then the issue is content, placement, and motive— not the existence of ink on the skin. Your own article even acknowledges that. 6. The key point remains untouched. You have not yet answered the basic exegetical question: What does Leviticus 19:28 mean in its Hebrew, historical, and covenantal context? Why does the New Testament never repeat the prohibition? Until you address these, you are not engaging the biblical argument—only offering: personal preferences cultural discomfort practical warnings and secondary opinions None of which constitute a Scriptural prohibition. Final Summary Your response: Misrepresented the examples (straw man). Avoided the actual tattoo passage entirely. Shifted from “sinful” to “unwise” arguments. Quoted an article that openly admits there is no biblical prohibition. Provided no verse interpreting tattoos as sin. Did not engage a single line of the contextual, linguistic, or covenantal analysis already offered. The central point still remains unchallenged: Scripture does not forbid tattoos. Leviticus 19:28 concerns pagan mourning rites, not modern body art. Holiness commands cannot be turned into prohibitions the Bible does not state. Quote
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